Should I even bother?

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UltraNonTraditional
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Should I even bother?

Postby UltraNonTraditional » Fri May 25, 2012 12:36 pm

I'm not so much asking what my chances are, but whether I should even bother to apply. Glad to give more info, if requested, but this is the part that troubles me.

I'm an older student. Screwed up at undergrad in a major way, alternating between failing everything and getting straight As and A-s depending on the semester. I dropped out with a 2.6 over 10 years ago. Since I had relocated, I transferred 60 credits to another school, and am finishing up now with a hard-earned 4.0 (assuming I get As in my last 3 classes, which I expect to). I was pretty crushed to learn about the LSAC GPA, which pretty much nullifies my 4.0.

I just did the LSAC calculator and entered all my grades from my former life and now, and it came out to a horrific 2.51. I'm no dummy, nor am I a slacker. I just didn't take undergrad seriously when I was younger and had a lot of family issues distracting me. Since returning to complete UG, I've earned straight As. I'm capable; just screwed up years ago.

I haven't taken the LSAT yet (planning for October and possible retake in December), but should I even bother? With that GPA, what kind of score would I need to even be considered in a decent school? Oh, and FWIW, I'm AA female URM.

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Systematic1
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Re: Should I even bother?

Postby Systematic1 » Fri May 25, 2012 12:39 pm

UltraNonTraditional wrote:With that GPA, what kind of score would I need to even be considered in a decent school?


Depends on what you consider a decent school.

jurisx
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Re: Should I even bother?

Postby jurisx » Fri May 25, 2012 12:43 pm

The lsac will view your cumulative gpa, but with the final gpa being a 4.0 (which looks good on applications as your BA gpa) your cumulative should still be decent.

Just prep well for the lsat and see how you do. Might as well give it a shot. If you get a 160 or above on the actual, you should be ok. If you get a 140 then well.......hope it's just on a prep one and try to do better on the actual.


Stricly in regards to your degree and gpa, those should be fine.

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twenty
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Re: Should I even bother?

Postby twenty » Fri May 25, 2012 12:50 pm

UltraNonTraditional wrote:I just did the LSAC calculator and entered all my grades from my former life and now, and it came out to a horrific 2.51. I'm no dummy, nor am I a slacker. I just didn't take undergrad seriously when I was younger and had a lot of family issues distracting me. Since returning to complete UG, I've earned straight As. I'm capable; just screwed up years ago.


Even as a URM, a 2.5~ is going to kill you. I don't understand though how you have a 2.5 when your overall at the CC was a 2.6, and now you have tons of A's on top of that.

jurisx
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Re: Should I even bother?

Postby jurisx » Fri May 25, 2012 12:53 pm

twentypercentmore wrote:
UltraNonTraditional wrote:I just did the LSAC calculator and entered all my grades from my former life and now, and it came out to a horrific 2.51. I'm no dummy, nor am I a slacker. I just didn't take undergrad seriously when I was younger and had a lot of family issues distracting me. Since returning to complete UG, I've earned straight As. I'm capable; just screwed up years ago.


Even as a URM, a 2.5~ is going to kill you. I don't understand though how you have a 2.5 when your overall at the CC was a 2.6, and now you have tons of A's on top of that.


His BA gpa is a 4.0, that should help.

You don't understand how one raises their grades? :roll:
Last edited by jurisx on Fri May 25, 2012 12:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Nova
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Re: Should I even bother?

Postby Nova » Fri May 25, 2012 12:54 pm

UltraNonTraditional wrote:I just did the LSAC calculator and entered all my grades from my former life and now, and it came out to a horrific 2.51. I'm no dummy, nor am I a slacker. I just didn't take undergrad seriously when I was younger and had a lot of family issues distracting me. Since returning to complete UG, I've earned straight As. I'm capable; just screwed up years ago.

I haven't taken the LSAT yet (planning for October and possible retake in December), but should I even bother? With that GPA, what kind of score would I need to even be considered in a decent school? Oh, and FWIW, I'm AA female URM.


a 2.5 LSAC GPA is not the kiss of death for a decent law school.

This AA/160/2.34 got a huge scholly at Miami and a great scholly at Alabama

http://lawschoolnumbers.com/BLACKMAN1

This URM/160/2.6 was not so lucky. They did however get scholarships at some T2s

http://lawschoolnumbers.com/furshizzle

This URM/165/2.6 was accepted to several decent regional schools across the country

http://lawschoolnumbers.com/Upwardtrender

This URM/168/2.5 IMO underpreformed. They cracked the T30 though.

http://lawschoolnumbers.com/requiem

I feel like hitting the median at any given school would give you some sort of chance (with a few exceptions)

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kwais
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Re: Should I even bother?

Postby kwais » Fri May 25, 2012 12:56 pm

jurisx wrote:
twentypercentmore wrote:
UltraNonTraditional wrote:I just did the LSAC calculator and entered all my grades from my former life and now, and it came out to a horrific 2.51. I'm no dummy, nor am I a slacker. I just didn't take undergrad seriously when I was younger and had a lot of family issues distracting me. Since returning to complete UG, I've earned straight As. I'm capable; just screwed up years ago.


Even as a URM, a 2.5~ is going to kill you. I don't understand though how you have a 2.5 when your overall at the CC was a 2.6, and now you have tons of A's on top of that.


His BA gpa is a 4.0, that should help.

You don't understand how one raises their grades? :roll:


you are an idiot. RC fail

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Nova
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Re: Should I even bother?

Postby Nova » Fri May 25, 2012 12:58 pm

jurisx wrote:
twentypercentmore wrote:
UltraNonTraditional wrote:I just did the LSAC calculator and entered all my grades from my former life and now, and it came out to a horrific 2.51. I'm no dummy, nor am I a slacker. I just didn't take undergrad seriously when I was younger and had a lot of family issues distracting me. Since returning to complete UG, I've earned straight As. I'm capable; just screwed up years ago.


Even as a URM, a 2.5~ is going to kill you. I don't understand though how you have a 2.5 when your overall at the CC was a 2.6, and now you have tons of A's on top of that.


Her BA gpa is a 4.0, that should help.

You don't understand how one raises their grades? :roll:


Well, 60 credits averageing 2.6 and 60 credits averaging 4.0 would give her a 3.3..... However she claims to have entered everything into an LSAC GPA calculator and it came out at 2.51. This is not consistent, which is what tpm is saying. I would guess her 2.6 does not include her Fs

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shredderrrrrr
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Re: Should I even bother?

Postby shredderrrrrr » Fri May 25, 2012 1:03 pm

jurisx wrote:
twentypercentmore wrote:
UltraNonTraditional wrote:I just did the LSAC calculator and entered all my grades from my former life and now, and it came out to a horrific 2.51. I'm no dummy, nor am I a slacker. I just didn't take undergrad seriously when I was younger and had a lot of family issues distracting me. Since returning to complete UG, I've earned straight As. I'm capable; just screwed up years ago.


Even as a URM, a 2.5~ is going to kill you. I don't understand though how you have a 2.5 when your overall at the CC was a 2.6, and now you have tons of A's on top of that.


His BA gpa is a 4.0, that should help.

You don't understand how one raises their grades? :roll:


Lol, you're a moron.

jurisx
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Re: Should I even bother?

Postby jurisx » Fri May 25, 2012 1:07 pm

shredderrrrrr wrote:
jurisx wrote:
twentypercentmore wrote:
UltraNonTraditional wrote:I just did the LSAC calculator and entered all my grades from my former life and now, and it came out to a horrific 2.51. I'm no dummy, nor am I a slacker. I just didn't take undergrad seriously when I was younger and had a lot of family issues distracting me. Since returning to complete UG, I've earned straight As. I'm capable; just screwed up years ago.


Even as a URM, a 2.5~ is going to kill you. I don't understand though how you have a 2.5 when your overall at the CC was a 2.6, and now you have tons of A's on top of that.


His BA gpa is a 4.0, that should help.

You don't understand how one raises their grades? :roll:


Lol, you're a moron.


Yes knowing that people can raise theier grades is so dumb, it's like so totally stupid. :roll:

Showing a 4.0 in your letter to show improvment, nah that wouldn't help......that crazy yo. :|

idiot.

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shredderrrrrr
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Re: Should I even bother?

Postby shredderrrrrr » Fri May 25, 2012 1:13 pm

jurisx wrote:
shredderrrrrr wrote:
jurisx wrote:
twentypercentmore wrote:
Even as a URM, a 2.5~ is going to kill you. I don't understand though how you have a 2.5 when your overall at the CC was a 2.6, and now you have tons of A's on top of that.


His BA gpa is a 4.0, that should help.

You don't understand how one raises their grades? :roll:


Lol, you're a moron.


Yes knowing that people can raise theier grades is so dumb, it's like so totally stupid. :roll:

Showing a 4.0 in your letter to show improvment, nah that wouldn't help......that crazy yo. :|

idiot.


--ImageRemoved--

Re-read the intial comment you responded to with an eye-roll. If you can't figure out why you sound like an idiot, then...

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Nova
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Re: Should I even bother?

Postby Nova » Fri May 25, 2012 1:18 pm

jurisx wrote:
twentypercentmore wrote:
UltraNonTraditional wrote:I just did the LSAC calculator and entered all my grades from my former life and now, and it came out to a horrific 2.51. I'm no dummy, nor am I a slacker. I just didn't take undergrad seriously when I was younger and had a lot of family issues distracting me. Since returning to complete UG, I've earned straight As. I'm capable; just screwed up years ago.


Even as a URM, a 2.5~ is going to kill you. I don't understand though how you have a 2.5 when your overall at the CC was a 2.6, and now you have tons of A's on top of that.


His BA gpa is a 4.0, that should help.

You don't understand how one raises their grades? :roll:


Trends are marginally importaint, at best. Hard numbers are what matter. Tpm was just asking for some clarity about her LSAC GPA calculations.

jurisx
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Re: Should I even bother?

Postby jurisx » Fri May 25, 2012 1:21 pm

Caveat: Yes still bother to try (some issues may arise but you should still take the lsat and go from there)

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twenty
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Re: Should I even bother?

Postby twenty » Fri May 25, 2012 1:48 pm

I was going to respond to jurisx, but it seems that I've been beaten to the punch. On a more related note, Nova's post is very helpful to highlight where you can get into, but not necessarily where you should go. (I'm fairly certain Nova would agree with me on this point). 90k at U of Miami seems like the only option even worth looking at, and I'm not sure if there are any stipulations on top of that.

I wish I hadn't backspace-fail out of my window, because my pre-fail post advocated OP studying some serious rear-end off for October aiming for a 170+. Even though a 170+ may not get OP into T14, it should certainly help with the potential of a non-stip full ride in T2.

UltraNonTraditional
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Re: Should I even bother?

Postby UltraNonTraditional » Fri May 25, 2012 2:37 pm

I hope this doesn't offend the other 30+ members, as that's not my intention. But frankly, at my age, as much as I would love to get into a T14, it won't kill me if I don't. I'm not Biglaw-focused, so I can live with going to a T2. Placement and salary does matter to me, but only for the purpose of loan satisfaction.

I'm sorry I didn't clarify this in my first post, but it didn't even cross my mind as relevant. I see now that it may be. My first 60 credits (the ones with the screwy grades) were 4 credits each. The post-transfer credits are 3 credits each. I don't really know how GPA math works, but I suppose that could be why the 2.51 seems like such a huge discrepancy?

Thank you all for the input and encouragement. I guess I'll give the LSAT a shot and see what happens.

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twenty
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Re: Should I even bother?

Postby twenty » Fri May 25, 2012 3:40 pm

I see. Yeah, you probably did that right. :\

Before you start spending serious money on law school, do yourself a favor and figure out what you want to do once you have a JD. Going to a T2, you simply can't expect to end up at a top-paying firm. Do you have connections to a DA's office? Do you have a guaranteed associate spot with a small firm you paralegal for?

Consider this: A JD will take you three years, at the low end roughly 60k in debt, and three years of lost work opportunity. An MPA/MPP will take you two years, at the low end cost roughly 25k, and is pretty nationally portable to federal agencies. Moral of the story, if the only reason you want to go to law school is for the JD, or you have an unrealistic goal that you're simply not going to achieve out of a T2, don't go.

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rinkrat19
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Re: Should I even bother?

Postby rinkrat19 » Fri May 25, 2012 3:45 pm

UltraNonTraditional wrote:I hope this doesn't offend the other 30+ members, as that's not my intention. But frankly, at my age, as much as I would love to get into a T14, it won't kill me if I don't. I'm not Biglaw-focused, so I can live with going to a T2. Placement and salary does matter to me, but only for the purpose of loan satisfaction.

I'm sorry I didn't clarify this in my first post, but it didn't even cross my mind as relevant. I see now that it may be. My first 60 credits (the ones with the screwy grades) were 4 credits each. The post-transfer credits are 3 credits each. I don't really know how GPA math works, but I suppose that could be why the 2.51 seems like such a huge discrepancy?

Thank you all for the input and encouragement. I guess I'll give the LSAT a shot and see what happens.
I'm still confused about the GPA calculation. It shouldn't matter if you had 8000 credits with a 2.6 and 50 credits with a 4.0, there's no mathematical way the overall GPA should be lower than 2.6.

Unless maybe LSAC gives +/- grades different numerical values than your first school did and your first GPA would actually have been a 2.3 or something according to them.

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twenty
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Re: Should I even bother?

Postby twenty » Fri May 25, 2012 3:56 pm

Maybe she retook classes and failed them again? :\

I dunno, I'm just throwing out stuff here.

UltraNonTraditional
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Re: Should I even bother?

Postby UltraNonTraditional » Fri May 25, 2012 3:57 pm

twentypercentmore wrote:I see. Yeah, you probably did that right. :\

Before you start spending serious money on law school, do yourself a favor and figure out what you want to do once you have a JD. Going to a T2, you simply can't expect to end up at a top-paying firm. Do you have connections to a DA's office? Do you have a guaranteed associate spot with a small firm you paralegal for?

Consider this: A JD will take you three years, at the low end roughly 60k in debt, and three years of lost work opportunity. An MPA/MPP will take you two years, at the low end cost roughly 25k, and is pretty nationally portable to federal agencies. Moral of the story, if the only reason you want to go to law school is for the JD, or you have an unrealistic goal that you're simply not going to achieve out of a T2, don't go.


Thanks so much. One thing I love about this site is that you guys shoot straight from the hip. I want to go to law school because I want to practice law in a firm that helps fathers get fair custody and support agreements. If my biggest dreams were to come true, I'd be a family court judge working to that end. As I said, I'm not the least bit concerned about earning a lot of money, but like everyone else, I don't want to be crippled by debt, so I do want to earn enough to pay off my loans.

I don't have any connections in a DAs office or a guaranteed spot anywhere. I do have a relative who is a judge in a large city, for whatever that's worth. I will look more into the MPA/MPP programs. I haven't really given that much thought. Thanks again!

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rinkrat19
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Re: Should I even bother?

Postby rinkrat19 » Fri May 25, 2012 3:59 pm

twentypercentmore wrote:Maybe she retook classes and failed them again? :\

I dunno, I'm just throwing out stuff here.
Hm, yeah. Retake grades could make the LSAC GPA lower than the school GPA. I think we were all thinking that the 2.6 and 4.0 were also LSAC GPAs, when LSAC might calculate them lower.

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rickgrimes69
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Re: Should I even bother?

Postby rickgrimes69 » Fri May 25, 2012 4:02 pm

rinkrat19 wrote:
UltraNonTraditional wrote:I hope this doesn't offend the other 30+ members, as that's not my intention. But frankly, at my age, as much as I would love to get into a T14, it won't kill me if I don't. I'm not Biglaw-focused, so I can live with going to a T2. Placement and salary does matter to me, but only for the purpose of loan satisfaction.

I'm sorry I didn't clarify this in my first post, but it didn't even cross my mind as relevant. I see now that it may be. My first 60 credits (the ones with the screwy grades) were 4 credits each. The post-transfer credits are 3 credits each. I don't really know how GPA math works, but I suppose that could be why the 2.51 seems like such a huge discrepancy?

Thank you all for the input and encouragement. I guess I'll give the LSAT a shot and see what happens.
I'm still confused about the GPA calculation. It shouldn't matter if you had 8000 credits with a 2.6 and 50 credits with a 4.0, there's no mathematical way the overall GPA should be lower than 2.6.

Unless maybe LSAC gives +/- grades different numerical values than your first school did and your first GPA would actually have been a 2.3 or something according to them.


Agreed. Something here isn't

sunglasses

Adding up

UltraNonTraditional
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Re: Should I even bother?

Postby UltraNonTraditional » Fri May 25, 2012 4:12 pm

rinkrat19 wrote:
UltraNonTraditional wrote:I hope this doesn't offend the other 30+ members, as that's not my intention. But frankly, at my age, as much as I would love to get into a T14, it won't kill me if I don't. I'm not Biglaw-focused, so I can live with going to a T2. Placement and salary does matter to me, but only for the purpose of loan satisfaction.

I'm sorry I didn't clarify this in my first post, but it didn't even cross my mind as relevant. I see now that it may be. My first 60 credits (the ones with the screwy grades) were 4 credits each. The post-transfer credits are 3 credits each. I don't really know how GPA math works, but I suppose that could be why the 2.51 seems like such a huge discrepancy?

Thank you all for the input and encouragement. I guess I'll give the LSAT a shot and see what happens.
I'm still confused about the GPA calculation. It shouldn't matter if you had 8000 credits with a 2.6 and 50 credits with a 4.0, there's no mathematical way the overall GPA should be lower than 2.6.

Unless maybe LSAC gives +/- grades different numerical values than your first school did and your first GPA would actually have been a 2.3 or something according to them.


To be honest, I'm still confused myself. I just did it again to double check and still came out with the same calculations. My first GPA on the LSAC site came out to be a 2.0. Once I added my new credits from my current school, assuming I'll finish with all As, it came out to 2.6.

I honestly can't explain it because I don't get it myself.

UltraNonTraditional
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Re: Should I even bother?

Postby UltraNonTraditional » Fri May 25, 2012 4:15 pm

twentypercentmore wrote:Maybe she retook classes and failed them again? :\

I dunno, I'm just throwing out stuff here.


No, I haven't retaken anything. I can give you the grades because maybe I'm doing something wrong. From my transfer transcript I have:

A (5)
A- (4)
B+ (1)
B (5)
B- (1)
C+ (4)
C (1)
D (3)
F (11) (I know that's horrible).

Those classes were 4 credits each. I also had two mandatory classes that were credit/non-credit, so I didn't factor those in, and I had one that was withdrawn. Didn't factor that in.

That added up to an LSAC 2.0.

Then, I added in my current grades, which I expect to be A (20) at 3 credits each.

That's it. *shrug* I'm as confused as the rest of you. LOL

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rinkrat19
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Re: Should I even bother?

Postby rinkrat19 » Fri May 25, 2012 4:22 pm

UltraNonTraditional wrote:
rinkrat19 wrote:
UltraNonTraditional wrote:I hope this doesn't offend the other 30+ members, as that's not my intention. But frankly, at my age, as much as I would love to get into a T14, it won't kill me if I don't. I'm not Biglaw-focused, so I can live with going to a T2. Placement and salary does matter to me, but only for the purpose of loan satisfaction.

I'm sorry I didn't clarify this in my first post, but it didn't even cross my mind as relevant. I see now that it may be. My first 60 credits (the ones with the screwy grades) were 4 credits each. The post-transfer credits are 3 credits each. I don't really know how GPA math works, but I suppose that could be why the 2.51 seems like such a huge discrepancy?

Thank you all for the input and encouragement. I guess I'll give the LSAT a shot and see what happens.
I'm still confused about the GPA calculation. It shouldn't matter if you had 8000 credits with a 2.6 and 50 credits with a 4.0, there's no mathematical way the overall GPA should be lower than 2.6.

Unless maybe LSAC gives +/- grades different numerical values than your first school did and your first GPA would actually have been a 2.3 or something according to them.


To be honest, I'm still confused myself. I just did it again to double check and still came out with the same calculations. My first GPA on the LSAC site came out to be a 2.0. Once I added my new credits from my current school, assuming I'll finish with all As, it came out to 2.6.

I honestly can't explain it because I don't get it myself.
That explains it, then. There are various ways LSAC will calculate a GPA differently than a school will, and the 2.0 at the first school makes it mathematically possible to end up at 2.5.

Anyway, OP, others have given you pretty solid advice. You seem to understand that school choice has a lot to do with employability, not just higher pay and prestige. Bust your ass studying for the LSAT, possibly retaking it if you need to, and when you have the absolute highest score you think you can achieve, take another look at whether the schools it could get you into are worth the risk and cost.

Plugging your grades into the calculator at lawschoolpredictor.com, I get a 1.97 LSAC GPA for the first school, and a 2.58 overall. Anyone else feeling bored and want to check it?

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shredderrrrrr
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Re: Should I even bother?

Postby shredderrrrrr » Fri May 25, 2012 4:29 pm

rinkrat19 wrote:
UltraNonTraditional wrote:
rinkrat19 wrote:
UltraNonTraditional wrote:I hope this doesn't offend the other 30+ members, as that's not my intention. But frankly, at my age, as much as I would love to get into a T14, it won't kill me if I don't. I'm not Biglaw-focused, so I can live with going to a T2. Placement and salary does matter to me, but only for the purpose of loan satisfaction.

I'm sorry I didn't clarify this in my first post, but it didn't even cross my mind as relevant. I see now that it may be. My first 60 credits (the ones with the screwy grades) were 4 credits each. The post-transfer credits are 3 credits each. I don't really know how GPA math works, but I suppose that could be why the 2.51 seems like such a huge discrepancy?

Thank you all for the input and encouragement. I guess I'll give the LSAT a shot and see what happens.
I'm still confused about the GPA calculation. It shouldn't matter if you had 8000 credits with a 2.6 and 50 credits with a 4.0, there's no mathematical way the overall GPA should be lower than 2.6.

Unless maybe LSAC gives +/- grades different numerical values than your first school did and your first GPA would actually have been a 2.3 or something according to them.


To be honest, I'm still confused myself. I just did it again to double check and still came out with the same calculations. My first GPA on the LSAC site came out to be a 2.0. Once I added my new credits from my current school, assuming I'll finish with all As, it came out to 2.6.

I honestly can't explain it because I don't get it myself.
That explains it, then. There are various ways LSAC will calculate a GPA differently than a school will, and the 2.0 at the first school makes it mathematically possible to end up at 2.5.

Anyway, OP, others have given you pretty solid advice. You seem to understand that school choice has a lot to do with employability, not just higher pay and prestige. Bust your ass studying for the LSAT, possibly retaking it if you need to, and when you have the absolute highest score you think you can achieve, take another look at whether the schools it could get you into are worth the risk and cost.

Plugging your grades into the calculator at lawschoolpredictor.com, I get a 1.97 LSAC GPA for the first school, and a 2.58 overall. Anyone else feeling bored and want to check it?


I just roughly calculated his first grades and came up with a GPA of about 2.0 and stopped there realizing that made the 2.5 possible.




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