Worth retaking a 172?

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SublimeStyle
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Worth retaking a 172?

Postby SublimeStyle » Thu Apr 05, 2012 3:28 pm

Took my first LSAT last December, got a 172 and I'm wondering if a retake would be worth it? I have a 2.81 GPA (Ivy League, not that it matters much) and am a URM. How much more of an advantage would a 2.8/177 be over a 2.8/172? I'm looking to get into the lower T-14.

I will also have had 2.5 years W/E by next summer.

Edit: I already know i should ED to NW, I'm asking whether a substantial increase will help me in other schools like Michigan, Virginia, Penn, Georgetown, etc.

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bernaldiaz
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Re: Worth retaking a 172?

Postby bernaldiaz » Thu Apr 05, 2012 3:34 pm

SublimeStyle wrote:Took my first LSAT last December, got a 172 and I'm wondering if a retake would be worth it? I have a 2.81 GPA (Ivy League, not that it matters much) and am a URM. How much more of an advantage would a 2.8/177 be over a 2.8/172? I'm looking to get into the lower T-14.

I will also have had 2.5 years W/E by next summer.

Edit: I already know i should ED to NW, I'm asking whether a substantial increase will help me in other schools like Michigan, Virginia, Penn, Georgetown, etc.


I really don't think this is the best course of action. I'm not sure you'd be competitive for the full-ride that comes along with an ED with your 2.8/172, and probably not even with a 2.8/177, if this year's numbers are any indication.

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SublimeStyle
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Re: Worth retaking a 172?

Postby SublimeStyle » Thu Apr 05, 2012 3:36 pm

bernaldiaz wrote:
SublimeStyle wrote:Took my first LSAT last December, got a 172 and I'm wondering if a retake would be worth it? I have a 2.81 GPA (Ivy League, not that it matters much) and am a URM. How much more of an advantage would a 2.8/177 be over a 2.8/172? I'm looking to get into the lower T-14.

I will also have had 2.5 years W/E by next summer.

Edit: I already know i should ED to NW, I'm asking whether a substantial increase will help me in other schools like Michigan, Virginia, Penn, Georgetown, etc.


I really don't think this is the best course of action. I'm not sure you'd be competitive for the full-ride that comes along with an ED with your 2.8/172, and probably not even with a 2.8/177, if this year's numbers are any indication.


Not even with URM status? And the ED isn't necessarily for the full-ride, more for the "deferred to regular decision, they know I'm interested, will probably get in off the waitlist" aspect.

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bk1
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Re: Worth retaking a 172?

Postby bk1 » Thu Apr 05, 2012 3:44 pm

PM'ed.

I also don't think your shot at NU's ED are great but I think you should do it because it makes more sense than ED'ing elsewhere. It shows interest in NU and might be able to snag you $ from them even if you don't get the actual ED admit. Maybe there's a case for ED'ing to some place like NYU (most forgiving to splitters of the T6) but looking at recent cycles I'd probably take some possible $ at NU over sticker at NYU.

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SublimeStyle
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Re: Worth retaking a 172?

Postby SublimeStyle » Thu Apr 05, 2012 3:51 pm

bk1 wrote:PM'ed.

I also don't think your shot at NU's ED are great but I think you should do it because it makes more sense than ED'ing elsewhere. It shows interest in NU and might be able to snag you $ from them even if you don't get the actual ED admit. Maybe there's a case for ED'ing to some place like NYU (most forgiving to splitters of the T6) but looking at recent cycles I'd probably take some possible $ at NU over sticker at NYU.


Quick question about how ED's work. Is it possible to ED at one of those schools, then if I were placed on WL or rejected have time to ED to the other one? My long-term girlfriend is currently at school in NYC and NYU would be ideal, but not sure if it's worth foregoing the NW ED since it's basically a shot in the dark.

Thanks for the PM btw.

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bk1
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Re: Worth retaking a 172?

Postby bk1 » Thu Apr 05, 2012 3:57 pm

SublimeStyle wrote:Quick question about how ED's work. Is it possible to ED at one of those schools, then if I were placed on WL or rejected have time to ED to the other one? My long-term girlfriend is currently at school in NYC and NYU would be ideal, but not sure if it's worth foregoing the NW ED since it's basically a shot in the dark.


If the school's ED timeline allows for it it is possible. But NYU/NU is not possible (whereas UVA-->NU-->GULC is possible). If your gf is in NYU, I'd say ED NYU if you're okay with sticker there. You've got a good shot RD at NU and I would hazard will get at least a bit of cash, but if you really want to be in NYC I'd say it's worth it to ED NYU (NYU accepted 1 sub3 URM splitter in 08-09 and waitlisted 2 sub3 URM splitters in 09-10).

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Samara
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Re: Worth retaking a 172?

Postby Samara » Thu Apr 05, 2012 3:58 pm

SublimeStyle wrote:
bk1 wrote:PM'ed.

I also don't think your shot at NU's ED are great but I think you should do it because it makes more sense than ED'ing elsewhere. It shows interest in NU and might be able to snag you $ from them even if you don't get the actual ED admit. Maybe there's a case for ED'ing to some place like NYU (most forgiving to splitters of the T6) but looking at recent cycles I'd probably take some possible $ at NU over sticker at NYU.


Quick question about how ED's work. Is it possible to ED at one of those schools, then if I were placed on WL or rejected have time to ED to the other one? My long-term girlfriend is currently at school in NYC and NYU would be ideal, but not sure if it's worth foregoing the NW ED since it's basically a shot in the dark.

Thanks for the PM btw.

It should be possible to ED to NU, get held, then ED to UVa.

If your goal is to be T14 secure, you would probably put your ED to better use at NYU or MVP. Where do you want to practice?

IMO, 172 is right on the bubble of diminishing returns for extreme splitters. Once you're at 173 and above, there doesn't seem to be any differentiation between scores. If you are PTing around 177 consistently, it could be worth a retake. If you aren't confident in your chances to improve though, not worth it. The boost you might get would be probably still be pretty small though, especially in light of decreased applications.

Edit: Didn't see where your GF is at NYU. ED to NYU is the way to go. If you get held, you should be able to ED to UVa if you want.
Last edited by Samara on Thu Apr 05, 2012 4:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Samara
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Re: Worth retaking a 172?

Postby Samara » Thu Apr 05, 2012 3:59 pm

bk1 wrote:
SublimeStyle wrote:Quick question about how ED's work. Is it possible to ED at one of those schools, then if I were placed on WL or rejected have time to ED to the other one? My long-term girlfriend is currently at school in NYC and NYU would be ideal, but not sure if it's worth foregoing the NW ED since it's basically a shot in the dark.


If the school's ED timeline allows for it it is possible. But NYU/NU is not possible (whereas UVA-->NU-->GULC is possible). If your gf is in NYU, I'd say ED NYU if you're okay with sticker there. You've got a good shot RD at NU and I would hazard will get at least a bit of cash, but if you really want to be in NYC I'd say it's worth it to ED NYU (NYU accepted 1 URM splitter in 08-09 and wiatlisted 2 URM splitters in 09-10).

UVa -> NU is not possible. NU doesn't allow you to ED if you have ED'd somewhere else previously in the cycle.

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Re: Worth retaking a 172?

Postby JamMasterJ » Thu Apr 05, 2012 4:00 pm

bk1 wrote:
SublimeStyle wrote:Quick question about how ED's work. Is it possible to ED at one of those schools, then if I were placed on WL or rejected have time to ED to the other one? My long-term girlfriend is currently at school in NYC and NYU would be ideal, but not sure if it's worth foregoing the NW ED since it's basically a shot in the dark.


If the school's ED timeline allows for it it is possible. But NYU/NU is not possible (whereas UVA-->NU-->GULC is possible). If your gf is in NYU, I'd say ED NYU if you're okay with sticker there. You've got a good shot RD at NU and I would hazard will get at least a bit of cash, but if you really want to be in NYC I'd say it's worth it to ED NYU (NYU accepted 1 sub3 URM splitter in 08-09 and waitlisted 2 sub3 URM splitters in 09-10).

NU won't let you double ED. So the only way you could really ED to NU and another school is if it were your first ED.

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Re: Worth retaking a 172?

Postby SublimeStyle » Thu Apr 05, 2012 4:01 pm

Samara wrote:
SublimeStyle wrote:
bk1 wrote:PM'ed.

I also don't think your shot at NU's ED are great but I think you should do it because it makes more sense than ED'ing elsewhere. It shows interest in NU and might be able to snag you $ from them even if you don't get the actual ED admit. Maybe there's a case for ED'ing to some place like NYU (most forgiving to splitters of the T6) but looking at recent cycles I'd probably take some possible $ at NU over sticker at NYU.


Quick question about how ED's work. Is it possible to ED at one of those schools, then if I were placed on WL or rejected have time to ED to the other one? My long-term girlfriend is currently at school in NYC and NYU would be ideal, but not sure if it's worth foregoing the NW ED since it's basically a shot in the dark.

Thanks for the PM btw.

It should be possible to ED to NU, get held, then ED to UVa.

If your goal is to be T14 secure, you would probably put your ED to better use at NYU or MVP. Where do you want to practice?

IMO, 172 is right on the bubble of diminishing returns for extreme splitters. Once you're at 173 and above, there doesn't seem to be any differentiation between scores. If you are PTing around 177 consistently, it could be worth a retake. If you aren't confident in your chances to improve though, not worth it. The boost you might get would be probably still be pretty small though, especially in light of decreased applications.


I'm 99% confident that I can bump it up to a 176+. I'm curious as to why you think ED'ing at NYU or MVP is more secure than ED to NU first.

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Re: Worth retaking a 172?

Postby bk1 » Thu Apr 05, 2012 4:02 pm

Samara wrote:UVa -> NU is not possible. NU doesn't allow you to ED if you have ED'd somewhere else previously in the cycle.


Oh yeah forgot about that. That's what they told me in a very confusingly worded email. I'd call and talk to them over the phone to make sure that it's really the way they want it if you're considering doing it (dunno if someone has already done that).

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Re: Worth retaking a 172?

Postby Samara » Thu Apr 05, 2012 4:03 pm

SublimeStyle wrote:
Samara wrote:
SublimeStyle wrote:
bk1 wrote:PM'ed.

I also don't think your shot at NU's ED are great but I think you should do it because it makes more sense than ED'ing elsewhere. It shows interest in NU and might be able to snag you $ from them even if you don't get the actual ED admit. Maybe there's a case for ED'ing to some place like NYU (most forgiving to splitters of the T6) but looking at recent cycles I'd probably take some possible $ at NU over sticker at NYU.


Quick question about how ED's work. Is it possible to ED at one of those schools, then if I were placed on WL or rejected have time to ED to the other one? My long-term girlfriend is currently at school in NYC and NYU would be ideal, but not sure if it's worth foregoing the NW ED since it's basically a shot in the dark.

Thanks for the PM btw.

It should be possible to ED to NU, get held, then ED to UVa.

If your goal is to be T14 secure, you would probably put your ED to better use at NYU or MVP. Where do you want to practice?

IMO, 172 is right on the bubble of diminishing returns for extreme splitters. Once you're at 173 and above, there doesn't seem to be any differentiation between scores. If you are PTing around 177 consistently, it could be worth a retake. If you aren't confident in your chances to improve though, not worth it. The boost you might get would be probably still be pretty small though, especially in light of decreased applications.


I'm 99% confident that I can bump it up to a 176+. I'm curious as to why you think ED'ing at NYU or MVP is more secure than ED to NU first.

Because you won't get in via ED (assuming they do the full scholarship again). So, the ED becomes a marginal preference for admission rather than a binding contract. I don't think you'll need the boost to get in, considering your URM status. Thus, unless you prefer NU over NYU and MVP, it would make more sense to use the ED at your top choice (NYU?) where it could make a significant difference.

ETA: Sounds like a good case for a retake if you want to. Keep in mind that people tend to score 2-3 point below their PT avg. I would still do some practice tests shortly before the exam and if you're not hitting 175+, cancel before the test.

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2014
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Re: Worth retaking a 172?

Postby 2014 » Fri Apr 06, 2012 10:45 pm

During whatever administration the most recent round of data on LSAC is, 75% of retakers who originally scored 171 or 172 managed 170 or higher their 2nd attempt. The average scores for each group were 171.2 and 172.5 respectively.

So you have a 1/4 chance of doing worse than 170 which I would consider a pretty disastrous outcome, and about an even chance of doing the same or worse. And you are in the company of other people in the 98thish percentile so its not like you can just assume you will do better than the average 172 retaker because that person is already well above average.

Now consider that U.Va., Michigan, Penn, and everyone higher didn't take anyone on LSN this year below a 2.93 and I'd say your chances are fundamentally nil. For t14 your targets have to be NU and GULC and to those two schools 172 is only trivially lower than 175-177.

Tl;dr: Don't retake

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Re: Worth retaking a 172?

Postby t14fanboy » Fri Apr 06, 2012 10:49 pm

2014 wrote:During whatever administration the most recent round of data on LSAC is, 75% of retakers who originally scored 171 or 172 managed 170 or higher their 2nd attempt. The average scores for each group were 171.2 and 172.5 respectively.

So you have a 1/4 chance of doing worse than 170 which I would consider a pretty disastrous outcome, and about an even chance of doing the same or worse. And you are in the company of other people in the 98thish percentile so its not like you can just assume you will do better than the average 172 retaker because that person is already well above average.

Now consider that U.Va., Michigan, Penn, and everyone higher didn't take anyone on LSN this year below a 2.93 and I'd say your chances are fundamentally nil. For t14 your targets have to be NU and GULC and to those two schools 172 is only trivially lower than 175-177.

Tl;dr: Don't retake


A lower score wouldn't hurt OP and he says he's been averaging higher so no harm. Although I agree that he would get some lower t-14s as is.

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Re: Worth retaking a 172?

Postby 2014 » Fri Apr 06, 2012 11:35 pm

I disagree that a lower score wouldn't hurt the OP.

a 172 followed by a 168 is not a good thing. It PROBABLY won't make a difference, but it's worse than letting a 172 speak for itself. It brings doubt into the picture.

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Re: Worth retaking a 172?

Postby American_in_China » Fri Apr 06, 2012 11:39 pm

I did.
But I knew I could score higher with more work. Depends on how exhaustive your studying was the first time.

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SublimeStyle
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Re: Worth retaking a 172?

Postby SublimeStyle » Sat Apr 07, 2012 3:53 pm

American_in_China wrote:I did.
But I knew I could score higher with more work. Depends on how exhaustive your studying was the first time.


I studied for two weeks for the first one, which is why I think I could easily improve my score. I didn't really have a worst section per se, as I missed 3 on LR, 3 on RC, 3 on LG, and 2 on the second LR. Definitely will not score lower.

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Re: Worth retaking a 172?

Postby HotSauce » Mon Apr 09, 2012 9:41 pm

I don't whether my cycle was typical or not because I didn't discover TLS forums until after I applied but my numbers are similar to yours. URM with 173 3.2 with 2 years W.E. I didn't blanket the t14, and my apps got out mid December but I ended up, in at GULC, WL at Chi, Penn, and NYU, and still soft held at Stanford (not expecting more than a WL). I would think then that you have a chance at NYU applying ED, and if I could do my cycle over I would have done that. Also I sent out my Penn app super late Feb. so an ED there might get you in as well, would be reasonably close to your GF in NYC.

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SublimeStyle
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Re: Worth retaking a 172?

Postby SublimeStyle » Tue Apr 10, 2012 10:36 am

HotSauce wrote:I don't whether my cycle was typical or not because I didn't discover TLS forums until after I applied but my numbers are similar to yours. URM with 173 3.2 with 2 years W.E. I didn't blanket the t14, and my apps got out mid December but I ended up, in at GULC, WL at Chi, Penn, and NYU, and still soft held at Stanford (not expecting more than a WL). I would think then that you have a chance at NYU applying ED, and if I could do my cycle over I would have done that. Also I sent out my Penn app super late Feb. so an ED there might get you in as well, would be reasonably close to your GF in NYC.


If you don't mind me asking, what type of URM are you?

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Re: Worth retaking a 172?

Postby HotSauce » Tue Apr 10, 2012 12:16 pm

AA male

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SublimeStyle
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Re: Worth retaking a 172?

Postby SublimeStyle » Tue Apr 10, 2012 12:32 pm

Yeah, I'm pretty sure AAs get a significant boost over MAs.




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