Unusual candidiate chances 3.57/175 LSAT

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spleenworship
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Re: Unusual candidiate chances 3.57/175 LSAT

Postby spleenworship » Tue Mar 27, 2012 1:10 am

JasonR wrote:
pepemaui wrote:
dkb17xzx wrote:Out of personal curiosity....why law school?


I have been in EM (emergency medicine) for 22 years


You've been in EM since you were 17? Or earlier, since you also have that MBA?


I noticed that as well. I figure one of three things:

1) OP is bad at math (I hope not, given the requirements of MD profession)
2) OP is lying to us (actually a PA, EMT, NP, or not even medical)
3) OP worked as an EMT since 17 (possible in some states)

I am assuming 1 or 3, since this isn't the first MD/DO on the board who gets burnt doing emergency medicine and wants, for gawd knows what reason, to move on to law. By the way, OP, in the 30+ thread there are several MD/DOs who are going to law school. Might want to message them.

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Re: Unusual candidiate chances 3.57/175 LSAT

Postby t14fanboy » Tue Mar 27, 2012 2:18 am

spleenworship wrote:
JasonR wrote:
pepemaui wrote:
dkb17xzx wrote:Out of personal curiosity....why law school?


I have been in EM (emergency medicine) for 22 years


You've been in EM since you were 17? Or earlier, since you also have that MBA?


I noticed that as well. I figure one of three things:

1) OP is bad at math (I hope not, given the requirements of MD profession)
2) OP is lying to us (actually a PA, EMT, NP, or not even medical)
3) OP worked as an EMT since 17 (possible in some states)

I am assuming 1 or 3, since this isn't the first MD/DO on the board who gets burnt doing emergency medicine and wants, for gawd knows what reason, to move on to law. By the way, OP, in the 30+ thread there are several MD/DOs who are going to law school. Might want to message them.


I smell a troll.

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Re: Unusual candidiate chances 3.57/175 LSAT

Postby pepemaui » Tue Mar 27, 2012 10:05 am

JasonR wrote:
pepemaui wrote:
dkb17xzx wrote:Out of personal curiosity....why law school?


I have been in EM (emergency medicine) for 22 years


You've been in EM since you were 17? Or earlier, since you also have that MBA?


Yes, I started volunteering and then working in the ER at 16 and never looked back. I was the president of the ER group in college, Med School, and ultimately the appointed student delegate for the American College of Emergency Medicine Board of Trustees in Med School as well. Went on to specialize in EM and was chief resident, then a director, etc...Got my MBA 2 years ago, went full time an worked part time during it.

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Re: Unusual candidiate chances 3.57/175 LSAT

Postby pepemaui » Tue Mar 27, 2012 10:09 am

I noticed that as well. I figure one of three things:

1) OP is bad at math (I hope not, given the requirements of MD profession)
2) OP is lying to us (actually a PA, EMT, NP, or not even medical)
3) OP worked as an EMT since 17 (possible in some states)

I am assuming 1 or 3, since this isn't the first MD/DO on the board who gets burnt doing emergency medicine and wants, for gawd knows what reason, to move on to law. By the way, OP, in the 30+ thread there are several MD/DOs who are going to law school. Might want to message them.[/quote]

I smell a troll.[/quote]

Troll?? Again, I'm not familiar with the lingo??

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Re: Unusual candidiate chances 3.57/175 LSAT

Postby pepemaui » Tue Mar 27, 2012 10:12 am

spleenworship wrote:
JasonR wrote:
pepemaui wrote:
dkb17xzx wrote:Out of personal curiosity....why law school?


I have been in EM (emergency medicine) for 22 years


You've been in EM since you were 17? Or earlier, since you also have that MBA?


I noticed that as well. I figure one of three things:

1) OP is bad at math (I hope not, given the requirements of MD profession)
2) OP is lying to us (actually a PA, EMT, NP, or not even medical)
3) OP worked as an EMT since 17 (possible in some states)

I am assuming 1 or 3, since this isn't the first MD/DO on the board who gets burnt doing emergency medicine and wants, for gawd knows what reason, to move on to law. By the way, OP, in the 30+ thread there are several MD/DOs who are going to law school. Might want to message them.



Where would I find the 30+ thread?

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JamMasterJ
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Re: Unusual candidiate chances 3.57/175 LSAT

Postby JamMasterJ » Tue Mar 27, 2012 10:22 am

I'm having trouble finding it. It used to stay on page 1 of whichever forum it's in. I know the phrase "old school" is in there somewhere if you feel like doing a forum search

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Re: Unusual candidiate chances 3.57/175 LSAT

Postby mtyler19 » Tue Mar 27, 2012 10:34 am


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Re: Unusual candidiate chances 3.57/175 LSAT

Postby JCFindley » Tue Mar 27, 2012 11:32 am

The thing is this Doc, there is likely not a single person on here that can actually tell you your odds because unless another MD that has tried it pops in, no one has been there and I doubt your going to get any admissions committee members to speak on the forum.

The general consensus here is that softs, (things beyond your LSAT and GPA) wont help much but will improve your chances in a tie breaker. BUT there are not many people with softs like being an MD. Very few people will be able to give you a read on that.

This is purely my guess; (I have NO basis for this besides basic logic,) I think very unique softs can overcome the numbers depending on the school. A handful of lower GPAs or LSAT scores are not going to kill the schools average or ranking and it gives them something they can use to point out how they are not all about the numbers, (even if they are.)

This may be extreme but could you imagine a US Senator that wants to go to LS after his/her term but being denied at Harvard because of a UG GPA? How about the Navy SEAL that killed Bin Ladan being locked out of Michigan because the LSAT was below the 25 percentile? (Not that the SEAL would self identify....) How about a Nobel Prize winning Ph.D. In physics being locked out of Stanford because his UG GPA was iffy?

So the question is how much that MD and work experience will help you? It is obviously more than being the the treasurer of your UG Frat but just how much.......

Really, the only way to know is to try it.

JC

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Re: Unusual candidiate chances 3.57/175 LSAT

Postby pepemaui » Tue Mar 27, 2012 12:55 pm

[quote="JCFindley"]The thing is this Doc, there is likely not a single person on here that can actually tell you your odds because unless another MD that has tried it pops in, no one has been there and I doubt your going to get any admissions committee members to speak on the forum.

The general consensus here is that softs, (things beyond your LSAT and GPA) wont help much but will improve your chances in a tie breaker. BUT there are not many people with softs like being an MD. Very few people will be able to give you a read on that.

This is purely my guess; (I have NO basis for this besides basic logic,) I think very unique softs can overcome the numbers depending on the school. A handful of lower GPAs or LSAT scores are not going to kill the schools average or ranking and it gives them something they can use to point out how they are not all about the numbers, (even if they are.)

This may be extreme but could you imagine a US Senator that wants to go to LS after his/her term but being denied at Harvard because of a UG GPA? How about the Navy SEAL that killed Bin Ladan being locked out of Michigan because the LSAT was below the 25 percentile? (Not that the SEAL would self identify....) How about a Nobel Prize winning Ph.D. In physics being locked out of Stanford because his UG GPA was iffy?

So the question is how much that MD and work experience will help you? It is obviously more than being the the treasurer of your UG Frat but just how much.......

Thanks, I understand and completely agree. Of course I will try. Originally, the premise was to determine if there was an actual "computerized" cutoff making me ineligible regardless of softs (does this word stand for something?). I drew the comparison to med school and residency, where I was on admissions committees for over 4 years, and can definitively say you would have ZERO chance for anyone to know if you killed BIn laden or were a Nobel prize winner, unless someone knew you were applying, and thus "locked out" based on your GPA and MCAT. Others from this post have stated top law schools read every application, Really?? Every application gets perused? That is quite amazing.

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Re: Unusual candidiate chances 3.57/175 LSAT

Postby JCFindley » Tue Mar 27, 2012 1:17 pm

pepemaui wrote:
Thanks, I understand and completely agree. Of course I will try. Originally, the premise was to determine if there was an actual "computerized" cutoff making me ineligible regardless of softs (does this word stand for something?). I drew the comparison to med school and residency, where I was on admissions committees for over 4 years, and can definitively say you would have ZERO chance for anyone to know if you killed BIn laden or were a Nobel prize winner, unless someone knew you were applying, and thus "locked out" based on your GPA and MCAT. Others from this post have stated top law schools read every application, Really?? Every application gets perused? That is quite amazing.



Yeah, I just don't know if all of them do or not. I know some do. Fordham is my top choice because my GI Bill will pay 100% and it is in NYC which keeps my wife happy and employed. I read an interview where they review EVERY personal statement so I applied and will see how well non traditional softs work there. (Softs is the term here for soft factors) I am sure at least some of the top rated schools must look at all of apps in some way or another.

I am also looking at law as a second career for many of the same reasons you are and am in a fairly unique position with my softs. I really have no clue how much they will really help but will find out...... Since I am not really looking at the T-14 I can retake my LSAT if necessary and probably get in without them but I figured it was worth a try this cycle....

JC

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Re: Unusual candidiate chances 3.57/175 LSAT

Postby pepemaui » Tue Mar 27, 2012 1:43 pm

PM'd

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spleenworship
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Re: Unusual candidiate chances 3.57/175 LSAT

Postby spleenworship » Tue Mar 27, 2012 7:19 pm

Now that you have a link to the 30+ thread, I again encourage you to read through it, find the MD/DOs in there and PM them. Most of them are now in law school, if I recall correctly, and can give you great advice on where to go from here.

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Re: Unusual candidiate chances 3.57/175 LSAT

Postby Applying_Late » Wed Apr 11, 2012 10:50 am

Personally I don't think you have a great shot at YH. For one, I think they will question your motivations. You will have to have very compelling reasons why you'd want to pursue law anf why now? A good story will have to be in line, even moreso at Y. Having an MD is not too shabby but you'll be competing against people of your age who have produced something ie phd, bestseller, etc. for example there is one guy around your age who got into yale and he got his undergrad at harvard, got a phd at berkeley, worked at mckinsey, formed a company with over 300 employees and now is a professor of law.

Your age will be of issue as well. Why would Harvard or yale want to take a chance with someone who might be past their prime? Employers would be scratching their heads too. If you can't be an associate or legal academic, then what are you proposing? Policy work? Working for WHO? If it's just a mid-career crisis or just a knowledge pursuit, then I don't think that's enough.

Lastly a lot of lawyers/professors are skeptical of MDs, who tend to be very arrogant. I remember one seminar I took and and MD was trying the class out. Unfortunately his arrogance and narrow-mindedness with respect to science got him clashing heads with the professor...eventually the MD dropped the class.

I am not saying don't apply, but i am saying that you have an uphill battle and I would assume you'd have to prove yourself to a greater degree.

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Re: Unusual candidiate chances 3.57/175 LSAT

Postby iowalum » Wed Apr 11, 2012 11:14 am

Applying_Late wrote:Personally I don't think you have a great shot at YH. For one, I think they will question your motivations. You will have to have very compelling reasons why you'd want to pursue law anf why now? A good story will have to be in line, even moreso at Y. Having an MD is not too shabby but you'll be competing against people of your age who have produced something ie phd, bestseller, etc. for example there is one guy around your age who got into yale and he got his undergrad at harvard, got a phd at berkeley, worked at mckinsey, formed a company with over 300 employees and now is a professor of law.

Your age will be of issue as well. Why would Harvard or yale want to take a chance with someone who might be past their prime? Employers would be scratching their heads too. If you can't be an associate or legal academic, then what are you proposing? Policy work? Working for WHO? If it's just a mid-career crisis or just a knowledge pursuit, then I don't think that's enough.

Lastly a lot of lawyers/professors are skeptical of MDs, who tend to be very arrogant. I remember one seminar I took and and MD was trying the class out. Unfortunately his arrogance and narrow-mindedness with respect to science got him clashing heads with the professor...eventually the MD dropped the class.

I am not saying don't apply, but i am saying that you have an uphill battle and I would assume you'd have to prove yourself to a greater degree.


Above - I agree with the premise of your post, but you are just rude.

OP, you might think about how you will sell your motivations to schools and more importantly employers. If you can't think of goals or positions you can't achieve without law (be specific! there are a lot of things you could do with a MA instead, for example) then you might re-think. But if you can, then blanket the whole T-14/20 and hope for the best. You're definitely unique and your GPA isn't a death sentence.

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Re: Unusual candidiate chances 3.57/175 LSAT

Postby spleenworship » Wed Apr 11, 2012 11:31 am

Applying_Late wrote:Personally I don't think you have a great shot at YH. For one, I think they will question your motivations. You will have to have very compelling reasons why you'd want to pursue law anf why now? A good story will have to be in line, even moreso at Y. Having an MD is not too shabby but you'll be competing against people of your age who have produced something ie phd, bestseller, etc. for example there is one guy around your age who got into yale and he got his undergrad at harvard, got a phd at berkeley, worked at mckinsey, formed a company with over 300 employees and now is a professor of law.

Your age will be of issue as well. Why would Harvard or yale want to take a chance with someone who might be past their prime? Employers would be scratching their heads too. If you can't be an associate or legal academic, then what are you proposing? Policy work? Working for WHO? If it's just a mid-career crisis or just a knowledge pursuit, then I don't think that's enough.

Lastly a lot of lawyers/professors are skeptical of MDs, who tend to be very arrogant. I remember one seminar I took and and MD was trying the class out. Unfortunately his arrogance and narrow-mindedness with respect to science got him clashing heads with the professor...eventually the MD dropped the class.

I am not saying don't apply, but i am saying that you have an uphill battle and I would assume you'd have to prove yourself to a greater degree.


you necro'd the thread.

Also, I disagree with your advice.


ETA: the young people on this forum are annoying- many employers won't have an issue with your age provided you act like what you are: a brand new attorney with no experience.

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Re: Unusual candidiate chances 3.57/175 LSAT

Postby Applying_Late » Wed Apr 11, 2012 11:55 am

spleenworship wrote:
Applying_Late wrote:Personally I don't think you have a great shot at YH. For one, I think they will question your motivations. You will have to have very compelling reasons why you'd want to pursue law anf why now? A good story will have to be in line, even moreso at Y. Having an MD is not too shabby but you'll be competing against people of your age who have produced something ie phd, bestseller, etc. for example there is one guy around your age who got into yale and he got his undergrad at harvard, got a phd at berkeley, worked at mckinsey, formed a company with over 300 employees and now is a professor of law.

Your age will be of issue as well. Why would Harvard or yale want to take a chance with someone who might be past their prime? Employers would be scratching their heads too. If you can't be an associate or legal academic, then what are you proposing? Policy work? Working for WHO? If it's just a mid-career crisis or just a knowledge pursuit, then I don't think that's enough.

Lastly a lot of lawyers/professors are skeptical of MDs, who tend to be very arrogant. I remember one seminar I took and and MD was trying the class out. Unfortunately his arrogance and narrow-mindedness with respect to science got him clashing heads with the professor...eventually the MD dropped the class.

I am not saying don't apply, but i am saying that you have an uphill battle and I would assume you'd have to prove yourself to a greater degree.


you necro'd the thread.

Also, I disagree with your advice.


ETA: the young people on this forum are annoying- many employers won't have an issue with your age provided you act like what you are: a brand new attorney with no experience.


And with what do you disagree? If you disagree, please tell me what it is so I can respond in some reasonable way.

Age does matter to good firms. If this guy will be 40+ when finishing law school, I am curious what law firm will take him over a kid who worked in consulting/banking and has great potential. There is already a problem with employers hiring jd/phds because they don't think they're committed. Also what's in it for a firm to hire someone who is 40? Say they take seven years to get to partner over someone younger with better credentials for partner track? Moreover, what the hell would a firm get from a guy who had a proven track record of bouncing around? Who's to say this md jd mba won't embark on a quest to get a PhD?

And for the record I am older as well and have asked around at top law schools and firms what age might do. I don't think Wachtell will be hiring this guy.

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Re: Unusual candidiate chances 3.57/175 LSAT

Postby spleenworship » Wed Apr 11, 2012 12:14 pm

Applying_Late wrote:
spleenworship wrote:
Applying_Late wrote:Personally I don't think you have a great shot at YH. For one, I think they will question your motivations. You will have to have very compelling reasons why you'd want to pursue law anf why now? A good story will have to be in line, even moreso at Y. Having an MD is not too shabby but you'll be competing against people of your age who have produced something ie phd, bestseller, etc. for example there is one guy around your age who got into yale and he got his undergrad at harvard, got a phd at berkeley, worked at mckinsey, formed a company with over 300 employees and now is a professor of law.


Not many of the people you described around, even at the T6.

Applying_Late wrote:Your age will be of issue as well. Why would Harvard or yale want to take a chance with someone who might be past their prime? Employers would be scratching their heads too. If you can't be an associate or legal academic, then what are you proposing? Policy work? Working for WHO? If it's just a mid-career crisis or just a knowledge pursuit, then I don't think that's enough.


Older people get into Harvard and Yale. Your example above proves that. And despite what everyone says, biglaw is not the only thing- We have had 3 MDs in the past few years at my law school. One went into med mal and was very successful. Another went into Patent and did well, a last went into civil rights litigation- don't know how they are doing.

Applying_Late wrote:Lastly a lot of lawyers/professors are skeptical of MDs, who tend to be very arrogant. I remember one seminar I took and and MD was trying the class out. Unfortunately his arrogance and narrow-mindedness with respect to science got him clashing heads with the professor...eventually the MD dropped the class.


I agree a lot of MDs are arrogant pricks. But not all of them are. The MD who went into Med Mal was universally regarded as an awesome dude.

Applying_Late wrote:I am not saying don't apply, but i am saying that you have an uphill battle and I would assume you'd have to prove yourself to a greater degree.


Probably have to prove to the same degree as everyone else making a career switch from a well regarded profession to another.

spleenworship wrote: you necro'd the thread.

Also, I disagree with your advice.


ETA: the young people on this forum are annoying- many employers won't have an issue with your age provided you act like what you are: a brand new attorney with no experience.


Applying_Late wrote:And with what do you disagree? If you disagree, please tell me what it is so I can respond in some reasonable way.

Age does matter to good firms. If this guy will be 40+ when finishing law school, I am curious what law firm will take him over a kid who worked in consulting/banking and has great potential. There is already a problem with employers hiring jd/phds because they don't think they're committed. Also what's in it for a firm to hire someone who is 40? Say they take seven years to get to partner over someone younger with better credentials for partner track? Moreover, what the hell would a firm get from a guy who had a proven track record of bouncing around? Who's to say this md jd mba won't embark on a quest to get a PhD?

And for the record I am older as well and have asked around at top law schools and firms what age might do. I don't think Wachtell will be hiring this guy.
[/quote][/quote]

I do agree that some, possibly a majority, of biglaw firms aren't going to hire this OP. But that isn't the only good career path for attorneys, despite what the majority on this thread would have you believe.

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Re: Unusual candidiate chances 3.57/175 LSAT

Postby Applying_Late » Wed Apr 11, 2012 1:13 pm

spleenworship wrote:
Applying_Late wrote:
spleenworship wrote:
Applying_Late wrote:Personally I don't think you have a great shot at YH. For one, I think they will question your motivations. You will have to have very compelling reasons why you'd want to pursue law anf why now? A good story will have to be in line, even moreso at Y. Having an MD is not too shabby but you'll be competing against people of your age who have produced something ie phd, bestseller, etc. for example there is one guy around your age who got into yale and he got his undergrad at harvard, got a phd at berkeley, worked at mckinsey, formed a company with over 300 employees and now is a professor of law.


Not many of the people you described around, even at the T6.

Yes and OP specifically asked about YH. We all know that there is a difference between YSH and the rest, and to get into YSH requires some effort. His GPA isn't great, and I am unsure how they will look at it; but Y had a floor of 3.61 or 3.63 for last year.

Applying_Late wrote:Your age will be of issue as well. Why would Harvard or yale want to take a chance with someone who might be past their prime? Employers would be scratching their heads too. If you can't be an associate or legal academic, then what are you proposing? Policy work? Working for WHO? If it's just a mid-career crisis or just a knowledge pursuit, then I don't think that's enough.


Older people get into Harvard and Yale. Your example above proves that. And despite what everyone says, biglaw is not the only thing- We have had 3 MDs in the past few years at my law school. One went into med mal and was very successful. Another went into Patent and did well, a last went into civil rights litigation- don't know how they are doing.

Again, I didn't contradict myself. I said it's difficult and will require some effort to explain. Back to the YH argument: OP doesn't have (or hasn't shared) his gret credentials. Board certified isn't special, neither is a director or chief for his age. People his age have accomplished a lot ie pulitzer prize, bestseller, guggenheim fellow, preatifious nsf grants, partners in health, you name it. I mean it's almost like a lawyer applying to med school sayin he made partner, which is actually rarer to get and probably harder to get than getting director/chief at some hospital.

Applying_Late wrote:Lastly a lot of lawyers/professors are skeptical of MDs, who tend to be very arrogant. I remember one seminar I took and and MD was trying the class out. Unfortunately his arrogance and narrow-mindedness with respect to science got him clashing heads with the professor...eventually the MD dropped the class.


I agree a lot of MDs are arrogant pricks. But not all of them are. The MD who went into Med Mal was universally regarded as an awesome dude.

I don't disagree with you that there are aome good ones. But academics are a funny bunch, and I can't see them getting excited to hire a bouncing MD.

Applying_Late wrote:I am not saying don't apply, but i am saying that you have an uphill battle and I would assume you'd have to prove yourself to a greater degree.


Probably have to prove to the same degree as everyone else making a career switch from a well regarded profession to another.

Disagree here. He's been in the field for 22 years. People start to wonder what the heck is going on, so his story has to be that much more compelling. I also did science, and I had to convince people how the hell it relates to what I want to do. If I started talking about my personal life and did a halfass connection to law, I don't think I'd be forgiven to the degree that a pol sci major would be forgiven.

spleenworship wrote: you necro'd the thread.

Also, I disagree with your advice.


ETA: the young people on this forum are annoying- many employers won't have an issue with your age provided you act like what you are: a brand new attorney with no experience.


Applying_Late wrote:And with what do you disagree? If you disagree, please tell me what it is so I can respond in some reasonable way.

Age does matter to good firms. If this guy will be 40+ when finishing law school, I am curious what law firm will take him over a kid who worked in consulting/banking and has great potential. There is already a problem with employers hiring jd/phds because they don't think they're committed. Also what's in it for a firm to hire someone who is 40? Say they take seven years to get to partner over someone younger with better credentials for partner track? Moreover, what the hell would a firm get from a guy who had a proven track record of bouncing around? Who's to say this md jd mba won't embark on a quest to get a PhD?

And for the record I am older as well and have asked around at top law schools and firms what age might do. I don't think Wachtell will be hiring this guy.
[/quote]

I do agree that some, possibly a majority, of biglaw firms aren't going to hire this OP. But that isn't the only good career path for attorneys, despite what the majority on this thread would have you believe.[/quote]

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Re: Unusual candidiate chances 3.57/175 LSAT

Postby 2014 » Wed Apr 11, 2012 4:26 pm

hooma wrote:Posted this in your other thread

You definitely have a shot: http://lawschoolnumbers.com/Cravin/jd


We debate all the time what constitutes a "good soft". The answer is whatever that guy has.




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