Do VA residents have a leg up at UVA?

Not sure where your numbers will get you? Dying to know where you stand? Come have your palms read by your fellow posters!

Should I apply to UVA this round? (172, 3.65, in-state, money matters)

ED
2
8%
RD
17
71%
Wait
5
21%
 
Total votes: 24

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5ky
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Re: Do VA residents have a leg up at UVA?

Postby 5ky » Thu Jan 19, 2012 12:19 pm

ben4847 wrote:I don't doubt that the law school itself makes more money than it spends- as to most law schools.
And I can read the statute just fine.

The point is that the University does receive state funding, and while the statute does not require a minimum percentage of in state students, it is not hard to imagine that they would lose their funding if it dropped too low. And probably, if the law school percentage dropped too low, the University would still lose funding even though the law school division brings in more money than it spends.


No. The law school doesn't get any money from the state or from the University of Virginia institution. It raises all of its own money, and is free to make decisions as it sees fit.

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IAFG
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Re: Do VA residents have a leg up at UVA?

Postby IAFG » Thu Jan 19, 2012 12:23 pm

TrialLawyer16 wrote:
IAFG wrote:
TrialLawyer16 wrote: would you rather be one of the 788 in-state applicants vying for 460 acceptances, or one of the 7,092 out of state applicants vying for 690 acceptances? And which do you think is probably tougher to break?

You forget that they can make up for a lack of in-staters through transfers, which they do.

I think that's out of the scope of this argument though. Transfers aren't included in that "we had 40% residents in our entering class" pledge they have, or in their entering class statistics. While even if they did for some reason include those numbers in with the entering class, the law school has stated they usually only enroll 20 or less transfers a year out of about 200 applications.

I am under the impression that transfers count as part of the 40% and that they are almost 100% in-staters.

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ben4847
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Re: Do VA residents have a leg up at UVA?

Postby ben4847 » Thu Jan 19, 2012 12:30 pm

5ky wrote:
ben4847 wrote:I don't doubt that the law school itself makes more money than it spends- as to most law schools.
And I can read the statute just fine.

The point is that the University does receive state funding, and while the statute does not require a minimum percentage of in state students, it is not hard to imagine that they would lose their funding if it dropped too low. And probably, if the law school percentage dropped too low, the University would still lose funding even though the law school division brings in more money than it spends.


No. The law school doesn't get any money from the state or from the University of Virginia institution. It raises all of its own money, and is free to make decisions as it sees fit.


You didn't disagree with me.

1. The law school is a division of the University.
2. The University controls the law school, by appointing the people who run it.
3. The University makes money from the law school, by skimming the extra money the law school makes.
4. The University receives money from the state, and is probably under political pressure to accept in state students.
5. Neither of us has any stake in this argument, so it is for pride purposes only.

(The law school is not free to make decisions as it sees fit- it it was, why would it give its extra money to the university? Because they own it.)

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5ky
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Re: Do VA residents have a leg up at UVA?

Postby 5ky » Thu Jan 19, 2012 12:37 pm

I still don't really understand what you're trying to argue. People were saying that UVA was required to have 40% in state, I corrected them, and then you pointed to a statute with no bearing on what we're talking about.

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ben4847
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Re: Do VA residents have a leg up at UVA?

Postby ben4847 » Thu Jan 19, 2012 12:40 pm

5ky wrote:I still don't really understand what you're trying to argue. People were saying that UVA was required to have 40% in state, I corrected them, and then you pointed to a statute with no bearing on what we're talking about.


ben4847 wrote:5. Neither of us has any stake in this argument, so it is for pride purposes only.

albanach
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Re: Do VA residents have a leg up at UVA?

Postby albanach » Thu Jan 19, 2012 1:36 pm

TrialLawyer16 wrote:*sigh* And this is where you're wrong my friend. You're banking on 115 VA residents that have numbers that get them into MVPB and no higher because any higher would put them into a school that they would pick over UVA. Do you understand how ridiculous that sounds? You're underestimating how tough it is to get in to UVA.


So are you suggesting the Dean was either being dishonest or is misquoted when he states that there's no statistical difference in the numbers between the two groups?

if not, how do you explain the Dean's statement?

pcwcecac
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Re: Do VA residents have a leg up at UVA?

Postby pcwcecac » Thu Jan 19, 2012 1:47 pm

the mean is only the first moment of a distribution. Suppose that the LSAT/GPA spread for residents is much wider due to UVA throwing $$$$ at residents with above mean numbers, that could result in a very similar mean to nonresident pool, and yet also admitting significantly more residents with poor numbers.

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joeshmo39
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Re: Do VA residents have a leg up at UVA?

Postby joeshmo39 » Thu Jan 19, 2012 1:54 pm

Surprised the thread went this far.

There is a boost for in-state applicants because of the quota. There's is also a better chance at scholarships for in -state students, other things being equal, because UVA can't lose its pool of qualified applicants to other schools. They need to "buy" them and keep them here or they'll never fill a competitive class.

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sundance95
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Re: Do VA residents have a leg up at UVA?

Postby sundance95 » Thu Jan 19, 2012 2:32 pm

ben4847 wrote:You didn't disagree with me.

1. The law school is a division of the University.
2. The University controls the law school, by appointing the people who run it.
3. The University makes money from the law school, by skimming the extra money the law school makes.
4. The University receives money from the state, and is probably under political pressure to accept in state students.
5. Neither of us has any stake in this argument, so it is for pride purposes only.

(The law school is not free to make decisions as it sees fit- it it was, why would it give its extra money to the university? Because they own it.)

You have no idea how a dean is selected, do you? (Hint: it's not by University appointment.)

You're either an idiot or a troll; nothing else explains your insistence on preferring to believe your speculation, based solely on irrelevant statute and your own intuition, in the face of facts provided to you by students actually attending UVA Law.

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ben4847
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Re: Do VA residents have a leg up at UVA?

Postby ben4847 » Thu Jan 19, 2012 2:37 pm

sundance95 wrote:
ben4847 wrote:You didn't disagree with me.

1. The law school is a division of the University.
2. The University controls the law school, by appointing the people who run it.
3. The University makes money from the law school, by skimming the extra money the law school makes.
4. The University receives money from the state, and is probably under political pressure to accept in state students.
5. Neither of us has any stake in this argument, so it is for pride purposes only.

(The law school is not free to make decisions as it sees fit- it it was, why would it give its extra money to the university? Because they own it.)

You have no idea how a dean is selected, do you? (Hint: it's not by University appointment.)

You're either an idiot or a troll; nothing else explains your insistence on preferring to believe your speculation, based solely on irrelevant statute and your own intuition, in the face of facts provided to you by students actually attending UVA Law.


Don't be a moron. You know as well as I do that the university controls the law school. You are correct that I don't know how the dean is appointed, and I don't even know what a provost is. But I do know that there is some sort of authority governing the university.

Since you know so much, why don't you tell us who controls the UVA law school, and how they are appointed, and what their monetary relationship is to the University of Virginia, and to the state of Virginia.

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sundance95
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Re: Do VA residents have a leg up at UVA?

Postby sundance95 » Thu Jan 19, 2012 2:46 pm

The Dean is elected by the faculty. He is responsible for fundraising, management of the Virginia Law Foundation (which is our endowment), and budgeting. HTH.

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Br3v
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Re: Do VA residents have a leg up at UVA?

Postby Br3v » Thu Jan 19, 2012 3:21 pm

joeshmo39 wrote:Surprised the thread went this far.

Nate895
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Re: Do VA residents have a leg up at UVA?

Postby Nate895 » Thu Jan 19, 2012 5:07 pm

albanach wrote:
TrialLawyer16 wrote:*sigh* And this is where you're wrong my friend. You're banking on 115 VA residents that have numbers that get them into MVPB and no higher because any higher would put them into a school that they would pick over UVA. Do you understand how ridiculous that sounds? You're underestimating how tough it is to get in to UVA.


So are you suggesting the Dean was either being dishonest or is misquoted when he states that there's no statistical difference in the numbers between the two groups?

if not, how do you explain the Dean's statement?


He said there was no statistically significant difference between the medians of the two groups. However, that doesn't mean there is no difference in the numbers. As Desert Fox pointed out, there are a lot more splitters admitted into UVA from in state. Basically, if you're a splitter (or reverse-splitter), in order to get into UVA, you have to either ED or be in state. That's how UVA is able to maintain their medians in that group.

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ben4847
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Re: Do VA residents have a leg up at UVA?

Postby ben4847 » Thu Jan 19, 2012 5:27 pm

sundance95 wrote:The Dean is elected by the faculty. He is responsible for fundraising, management of the Virginia Law Foundation (which is our endowment), and budgeting. HTH.


Ok. And who is responsible for deciding how much money they have to give to the University? And who is responsible for deciding whether to build buildings or buy and sell land?

Who are you fooling? You know they aren't an independent entity. I know they aren't an independent entity. Everyone reading this knows they aren't an independent entity.

And like I said before:
ben4847 wrote:5. Neither of us has any stake in this argument, so it is for pride purposes only.


Are all of you so snarky?

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sundance95
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Re: Do VA residents have a leg up at UVA?

Postby sundance95 » Thu Jan 19, 2012 5:29 pm

QuakerOats? Is that you?

pcwcecac
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Re: Do VA residents have a leg up at UVA?

Postby pcwcecac » Thu Jan 19, 2012 5:41 pm

ben4847 wrote:
sundance95 wrote:The Dean is elected by the faculty. He is responsible for fundraising, management of the Virginia Law Foundation (which is our endowment), and budgeting. HTH.


Ok. And who is responsible for deciding how much money they have to give to the University? And who is responsible for deciding whether to build buildings or buy and sell land?

Who are you fooling? You know they aren't an independent entity. I know they aren't an independent entity. Everyone reading this knows they aren't an independent entity.

And like I said before:
ben4847 wrote:5. Neither of us has any stake in this argument, so it is for pride purposes only.


Are all of you so snarky?

some of us really are. But i'm not one of us

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TrialLawyer16
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Re: Do VA residents have a leg up at UVA?

Postby TrialLawyer16 » Fri Jan 20, 2012 2:32 am

Nate895 wrote:
albanach wrote:
TrialLawyer16 wrote:*sigh* And this is where you're wrong my friend. You're banking on 115 VA residents that have numbers that get them into MVPB and no higher because any higher would put them into a school that they would pick over UVA. Do you understand how ridiculous that sounds? You're underestimating how tough it is to get in to UVA.


So are you suggesting the Dean was either being dishonest or is misquoted when he states that there's no statistical difference in the numbers between the two groups?

if not, how do you explain the Dean's statement?


He said there was no statistically significant difference between the medians of the two groups. However, that doesn't mean there is no difference in the numbers. As Desert Fox pointed out, there are a lot more splitters admitted into UVA from in state. Basically, if you're a splitter (or reverse-splitter), in order to get into UVA, you have to either ED or be in state. That's how UVA is able to maintain their medians in that group.

+1
Exactly. No, I'm absolutely not saying the former Dean was being dishonest. He said the "medians between the two pools are not statistically distinguishable", which is probably true. However, look at this hypothetical group of 18 admitted applicants:

Group A (In-state): 3.85/155, 3.92/158, 3.92/166, 3.85/166, 3.92/170, 3.51/170, 3.51/171, 3.0/171, 3.0/171
Group B (OutofSt.): 4.00/166, 3.85/166, 3.92/166, 3.92/170, 4.00/170, 3.85/171, 3.51/171, 3.5/180, 3.5/180

You know what these two groups have in common? They both have a median GPA of 3.85 and a median LSAT of 170, and both have 25th/75ths of 3.51-3.92 and 166-171. What is more telling here is to take the medians and also the averages, but law schools don't have to give out that information. The average GPA of Group A is 3.61 and average LSAT is 166, while the average GPA of Group B is 3.79 and average LSAT is 171. To put it simply, if Group A's averages were their medians, they would have the same exact medians as Fordham. If Group B's averages were their medians they would have the same exact medians as NYU. This is only using 9 students per group, when you have an enrolled class of 200+ you can imagine just how wide the numbers could get. This is how you play the USNWR numbers game. So, no I don't think the dean was dishonest.

pcwcecac
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Re: Do VA residents have a leg up at UVA?

Postby pcwcecac » Fri Jan 20, 2012 9:43 am

If he said that the MEDIANS are not STATISTICALLY different, that's sly. I automatically assumed it was a misquote and that the dean meant the "mean".

Even if he had said that the medians are NUMERICALLY IDENTICAL in any cycle, it still says very very little about the distributions of LSAT/GPA across resident and non-resident pools.

here is a more extreme example:

3.8/120 3.8/171 2.5/171 (median: 3.8/171)

3.8/175 4.0/171 3.8/171 (median: 3.8/171)

Had he had the balls to release 75th and 25th percentile numbers, then I would give more credit to his implications on the consistency of UVA's numerical selection criteria between in-state and out-of-state

The statement is probably truthful, but sly in its implications. Can you expect any less from a fantastic dean?

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TrialLawyer16
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Re: Do VA residents have a leg up at UVA?

Postby TrialLawyer16 » Fri Jan 20, 2012 10:57 am

Haha, on a side note. It looks like they've updated the "Virginia Resident" section on the TLS UVA profile due to the discussion in this thread. From the quotes in this thread I can tell that a day or so ago when this thread started it used to read:
"There is no particular “boost” given to residents. But residents have mathematics on their side. We receive over nine nonresident applications for every resident application – people are really shocked by this figure. Yet nonresidents get only 1.5 seats for every resident seat in the entering class – 60 percent nonresidents to 40 percent residents. I often joke that getting in as a nonresident is ridiculously difficult (for nonresidents) rather than just being plain hard (for residents)."

"The next follow-up question I normally receive is whether the enrolled residents have lower numerical indicators than the nonresidents who matriculate. The answer is no. The medians between the pools are not statistically distinguishable. The reason for that makes sense when you think about it. Thankfully, there are a large number of bright recent college graduates interested in law school throughout the Commonwealth, but particularly a large number who move to and work (and live) for a year or two in and around Washington, D.C. The smart ones live in Arlington or Alexandra and become residents. "


Now it reads:
Dean Trujillo insists, “There is no particular “boost” given to residents. But residents have mathematics on their side.” In fact, there are “over nine nonresident applications for every resident application.” So, out of 7,880 applications in 2008, about 7,000 were from nonresidents. The ratio of resident to nonresident admittance is 60 to 40, so “nonresidents get only 1.5 seats for every resident seat in the entering class,” which is a huge boon for resident applicants.

Still, there are no special considerations given to Virginia residents who do not meet the school’s high LSAT and GPA standards. A sizable number of highly qualified applicants live in Virginia, and Trujillo lets it be known that “the medians between the pools are not statistically distinguishable.” This has led him to “joke that getting in…is ridiculously difficult (for nonresidents) rather than just being plain hard (for residents).”


It looks like they added that 7,880 apps/7000 non-resident calculation I did earlier in the thread. It's good to know I've contributed something to this site, regardless of how minute, because god knows it's given me a lot.




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