Do VA residents have a leg up at UVA?

Not sure where your numbers will get you? Dying to know where you stand? Come have your palms read by your fellow posters!

Should I apply to UVA this round? (172, 3.65, in-state, money matters)

ED
2
8%
RD
17
71%
Wait
5
21%
 
Total votes: 24

pcwcecac
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Re: Do VA residents have a leg up at UVA?

Postby pcwcecac » Wed Jan 18, 2012 2:40 pm

ben4847 wrote:
Nate895 wrote:On LSN (I spent some time on there trying to figure this out for myself), it seems that in-state splitters and reverse-splitters have a small advantage. The medians are pretty similar, according to UVA's website, but I'm willing to bet the mean is lower.

Usually about 10% of the applicants are VA residents (around 7,000 applications), 40% have to be VA residents, so, if you do the math, UVA has about twice the acceptance rate amongst in state residents. I mean, there is just no way for them to find 140 or so Virginia residents without being more willing to make a reach for a splitter or reverse splitter when they only have around 700 in state apps to begin with.


You need to also consider that VA residents are more likely accept VA than out of state applicants.
You have to figure that any VA resident who is accepted to MVPB is going to choose virginia, and many who are accepted to CCN will as well.


I disagree slightly with you. In-states pay $15k less over 3 years at UVA. That's probably not enough money to be a game changer. Those with geographic ties might prefer V over tier schools. But I find it hard to believe that the majority of VA resident applicants have such strong locational preferences. I, for one, would take CCN in a heartbeat, and would also consider MPB (especially P).

That said, you brought up a good point that 40 60 needs to be taken with a grain of salt.

albanach
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Re: Do VA residents have a leg up at UVA?

Postby albanach » Wed Jan 18, 2012 2:52 pm

TrialLawyer16 wrote:
You've got your numbers switched around. It's 40-60 not 67-33. Everything else I agree with though. It is hard to believe that 40% of a class made up entirely of VA residents is as competitive numerically as 60% of the class made up of the entire out-of-state pool. I'd reason that VA residents definitely receive a bit of a boost. Even the quote I posted above it the former dean stated there wasn't a boost, and then pretty much implied there was at the end.


Why is it hard to believe unless you think Virginia can't generate 115 students per year with numbers around those that get you in to UVA? The in-state tuition reduction isn't much, and other schools have just as much if not more scholarship money to throw around. If your numbers get you into a better school than UVa, I don't see many in-state students opting for the lower ranked school just because it's close to home.

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ben4847
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Re: Do VA residents have a leg up at UVA?

Postby ben4847 » Wed Jan 18, 2012 3:05 pm

pcwcecac wrote:
ben4847 wrote:
Nate895 wrote:On LSN (I spent some time on there trying to figure this out for myself), it seems that in-state splitters and reverse-splitters have a small advantage. The medians are pretty similar, according to UVA's website, but I'm willing to bet the mean is lower.

Usually about 10% of the applicants are VA residents (around 7,000 applications), 40% have to be VA residents, so, if you do the math, UVA has about twice the acceptance rate amongst in state residents. I mean, there is just no way for them to find 140 or so Virginia residents without being more willing to make a reach for a splitter or reverse splitter when they only have around 700 in state apps to begin with.


You need to also consider that VA residents are more likely accept VA than out of state applicants.
You have to figure that any VA resident who is accepted to MVPB is going to choose virginia, and many who are accepted to CCN will as well.


I disagree slightly with you. In-states pay $15k less over 3 years at UVA. That's probably not enough money to be a game changer. Those with geographic ties might prefer V over tier schools. But I find it hard to believe that the majority of VA resident applicants have such strong locational preferences. I, for one, would take CCN in a heartbeat, and would also consider MPB (especially P).

That said, you brought up a good point that 40 60 needs to be taken with a grain of salt.


oh. I thought it was much more money than that. Forget it then.

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TrialLawyer16
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Re: Do VA residents have a leg up at UVA?

Postby TrialLawyer16 » Wed Jan 18, 2012 3:38 pm

albanach wrote:
TrialLawyer16 wrote:
You've got your numbers switched around. It's 40-60 not 67-33. Everything else I agree with though. It is hard to believe that 40% of a class made up entirely of VA residents is as competitive numerically as 60% of the class made up of the entire out-of-state pool. I'd reason that VA residents definitely receive a bit of a boost. Even the quote I posted above it the former dean stated there wasn't a boost, and then pretty much implied there was at the end.


Why is it hard to believe unless you think Virginia can't generate 115 students per year with numbers around those that get you in to UVA? The in-state tuition reduction isn't much, and other schools have just as much if not more scholarship money to throw around. If your numbers get you into a better school than UVa, I don't see many in-state students opting for the lower ranked school just because it's close to home.

You're actually saying the same thing I am. Your first sentence and the last two contradict each other. I, of course, can believe that VA generates a lot more than 115 students per year with numbers that get you in UVA. I'm a Virginia resident myself and I know just how much talent is in this state. However, the second part of your paragraph is part of the reason as to why I believe the students on the lower end competitively most likely have a greater proportion comprised of VA residents (and URMs of course). Since there is a requirement for VA residents, they(we) can technically be treated at as if they were URMS from an admission standpoint. Also, just like you stating that you don't see many in-state students opting for VA just because it's close to home if they get into a higher-ranked school gives even more support to my theory because if that is true it takes away part of the thought that a student with a 4.0/173 would forego Columbia just to stay home in VA. It's really a statistics thing, since there is a requirement of 40% in-state residents UVA has no choice but to dip down a little for in-state residents. There's just no way around that statistically. I'm actually even more impressed at UVAs stats considering this requirement. It says a lot about the school.

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Re: Do VA residents have a leg up at UVA?

Postby albanach » Wed Jan 18, 2012 7:14 pm

TrialLawyer16 wrote:You're actually saying the same thing I am. Your first sentence and the last two contradict each other.


No, they do not.

I said: Why is it hard to believe unless you think Virginia can't generate 115 students per year with numbers around those that get you in to UVA?

If Va can generate 115+ students with numbers around those that get you into UVa, then it is reasonable to believe a fairly high proportion will attend UVa. It's close to home, there's a tuition discount etc. Students who have better numbers are likely to go elsewhere. So if Va can generate 115+ students with those numbers, the 40% Va portion can be numerically similar in terms of GPA and LSAT to the other 60%.

Then I said: If your numbers get you into a better school than UVa, I don't see many in-state students opting for the lower ranked school just because it's close to home.

Those who score better numbers than would get them into UVa are likely to go to the better school. The in state tuition and location are attractive if you have MPV numbers, but much less so if you're looking at a T6 acceptance.

TrialLawyer16 wrote: It's really a statistics thing, since there is a requirement of 40% in-state residents UVA has no choice but to dip down a little for in-state residents. There's just no way around that statistically. I'm actually even more impressed at UVAs stats considering this requirement. It says a lot about the school.


That simply does not make sense. If the state can generate 115 students with grades that match UVa's median there is no statistical reason the school cannot fill its 40% of in-state students without lowering its requirements.

To quote from the interview on this site with a former UVa admissions dean:

"The next follow-up question I normally receive is whether the enrolled residents have lower numerical indicators than the nonresidents who matriculate. The answer is no. The medians between the pools are not statistically distinguishable. The reason for that makes sense when you think about it. Thankfully, there are a large number of bright recent college graduates interested in law school throughout the Commonwealth, but particularly a large number who move to and work (and live) for a year or two in and around Washington, D.C. The smart ones live in Arlington or Alexandra and become residents. "

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TrialLawyer16
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Re: Do VA residents have a leg up at UVA?

Postby TrialLawyer16 » Thu Jan 19, 2012 1:14 am

albanach wrote:
TrialLawyer16 wrote:You're actually saying the same thing I am. Your first sentence and the last two contradict each other.


No, they do not.

I said: Why is it hard to believe unless you think Virginia can't generate 115 students per year with numbers around those that get you in to UVA?

If Va can generate 115+ students with numbers around those that get you into UVa, then it is reasonable to believe a fairly high proportion will attend UVa. It's close to home, there's a tuition discount etc. Students who have better numbers are likely to go elsewhere. So if Va can generate 115+ students with those numbers, the 40% Va portion can be numerically similar in terms of GPA and LSAT to the other 60%.

Then I said: If your numbers get you into a better school than UVa, I don't see many in-state students opting for the lower ranked school just because it's close to home.

Those who score better numbers than would get them into UVa are likely to go to the better school. The in state tuition and location are attractive if you have MPV numbers, but much less so if you're looking at a T6 acceptance.

TrialLawyer16 wrote: It's really a statistics thing, since there is a requirement of 40% in-state residents UVA has no choice but to dip down a little for in-state residents. There's just no way around that statistically. I'm actually even more impressed at UVAs stats considering this requirement. It says a lot about the school.


That simply does not make sense. If the state can generate 115 students with grades that match UVa's median there is no statistical reason the school cannot fill its 40% of in-state students without lowering its requirements.

To quote from the interview on this site with a former UVa admissions dean:

"The next follow-up question I normally receive is whether the enrolled residents have lower numerical indicators than the nonresidents who matriculate. The answer is no. The medians between the pools are not statistically distinguishable. The reason for that makes sense when you think about it. Thankfully, there are a large number of bright recent college graduates interested in law school throughout the Commonwealth, but particularly a large number who move to and work (and live) for a year or two in and around Washington, D.C. The smart ones live in Arlington or Alexandra and become residents. "

Look I love UVA, and I'm not trying to knock residents obviously because I'm one of them. But I'm a numbers guy, I know what I'm saying statistically is rock solid (I'm an Accountant full-time at the moment for whatever it's worth).

From the quote by the former dean posted on the 1st page in this thread it states that out of the applicant pool 90% are out-of-state and 10% are in-state (ratio of 9 to 1). The seats given or filled are 60% out-of-state and 40% in-state (ratio of 1.5 to 1). In order for your belief to be true, the only way VA residents can have equivalent stats to their non-resident counterparts the in-state applicant pool would have to have 6 times :shock: the proportion of qualified applicants as the out-of-state applicant pool to make up for such a disparity. As much as I love this state, there's no way I'm willing to believe that any state has 6x the quality (percentage wise) of applicants as the rest of the country. The only stats that are given/required of schools are medians and 25th/75ths - not averages. This is VERY important. In fact that is the key, but I'm not going to get into that here. I'm going to break down the admissions statistics just so you can see exactly why a boost is undeniable and necessary.

This is what I got by doing calculations using UVA Law's Stats from 2009:

TOTAL 2009 Applications: 7,880
Out-of-state: 7092 [calculated using the former dean's 9 to 1 ratio]
In-state: 788 [calculated using the former dean's 9 to 1 ratio])
TOTAL 2009 Matriculants: 368
-------OOS Matriculants: 221 for only a 3.1% enrollment/applied rate [calculated using 60-40 percentage from former dean]
----In-state Matriculants: 147 for a 18.7% enrollment/applied rate! [calculated using 60-40 percentage from former dean]


*Now here's a kicker. If you take the former dean's ambiguous wording, "Yet nonresidents get only 1.5 seats for every resident seat in the entering class – 60 percent nonresidents to 40 percent residents", to refer to applicants accepted and not actually enrolled these stats would come into play:

Total 2009 Accepted Applicants: 1150 for a 14.6% TOTAL acceptance rate
----Out of state apps Accepted: 690 for a 9.7% acceptance rate
----In-state applicants accepted: 460 for a whopping 58.4% acceptance rate :shock: *

(It should be noted that I believe he was referring to the actual enrolled class, however if you accept a certain amount of students there's no way of knowing exactly what percentage will matriculate in order to fulfill the 60-40 requirement so that's the part that confuses me about his comment. Maybe if a certain amount of accepted OOS actually enroll, you bring in-state apps off the wait list.. I don't know)


If after seeing these numbers you don't believe VA residents are given a boost, then I really don't know what to say to you bud. It's as clear as day, the numbers don't lie. If you'd like me to break out how you can use the USNWR reported statistics to disguise the fact that VA residents actually aren't as competitive I can do that for you as well.

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5ky
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Re: Do VA residents have a leg up at UVA?

Postby 5ky » Thu Jan 19, 2012 1:26 am

Lot of misinformation in here. UVA does not receive funding from the state, it is entirely self-sustaining. That being said, the school of law voluntarily chooses to reserve about 40% of seats for in-state residents; they are not required to do so, however.

Here's the truth: UVA plays the numbers game, hard. They WL a ton to keep their acceptance rate low. They have a class with medians of 171/3.85 by having a TON of people who exceed one median and then are below the other.

Being in-state probably isn't going to help if you're below both medians. But if you're above one, then sure, it'll help.
Last edited by 5ky on Thu Jan 19, 2012 1:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

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ben4847
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Re: Do VA residents have a leg up at UVA?

Postby ben4847 » Thu Jan 19, 2012 1:27 am

TrialLawyer16 wrote:
albanach wrote:
TrialLawyer16 wrote:You're actually saying the same thing I am. Your first sentence and the last two contradict each other.


No, they do not.

I said: Why is it hard to believe unless you think Virginia can't generate 115 students per year with numbers around those that get you in to UVA?

If Va can generate 115+ students with numbers around those that get you into UVa, then it is reasonable to believe a fairly high proportion will attend UVa. It's close to home, there's a tuition discount etc. Students who have better numbers are likely to go elsewhere. So if Va can generate 115+ students with those numbers, the 40% Va portion can be numerically similar in terms of GPA and LSAT to the other 60%.

Then I said: If your numbers get you into a better school than UVa, I don't see many in-state students opting for the lower ranked school just because it's close to home.

Those who score better numbers than would get them into UVa are likely to go to the better school. The in state tuition and location are attractive if you have MPV numbers, but much less so if you're looking at a T6 acceptance.

TrialLawyer16 wrote: It's really a statistics thing, since there is a requirement of 40% in-state residents UVA has no choice but to dip down a little for in-state residents. There's just no way around that statistically. I'm actually even more impressed at UVAs stats considering this requirement. It says a lot about the school.


That simply does not make sense. If the state can generate 115 students with grades that match UVa's median there is no statistical reason the school cannot fill its 40% of in-state students without lowering its requirements.

To quote from the interview on this site with a former UVa admissions dean:

"The next follow-up question I normally receive is whether the enrolled residents have lower numerical indicators than the nonresidents who matriculate. The answer is no. The medians between the pools are not statistically distinguishable. The reason for that makes sense when you think about it. Thankfully, there are a large number of bright recent college graduates interested in law school throughout the Commonwealth, but particularly a large number who move to and work (and live) for a year or two in and around Washington, D.C. The smart ones live in Arlington or Alexandra and become residents. "

Look I love UVA, and I'm not trying to knock residents obviously because I'm one of them. But I'm a numbers guy, I know what I'm saying statistically is rock solid (I'm an Accountant full-time at the moment for whatever it's worth).

From the quote by the former dean posted on the 1st page in this thread it states that out of the applicant pool 90% are out-of-state and 10% are in-state (ratio of 9 to 1). The seats given or filled are 60% out-of-state and 40% in-state (ratio of 1.5 to 1). In order for your belief to be true, the only way VA residents can have equivalent stats to their non-resident counterparts the in-state applicant pool would have to have 6 times :shock: the proportion of qualified applicants as the out-of-state applicant pool to make up for such a disparity. As much as I love this state, there's no way I'm willing to believe that any state has 6x the quality (percentage wise) of applicants as the rest of the country. The only stats that are given/required of schools are medians and 25th/75ths - not averages. This is VERY important. In fact that is the key, but I'm not going to get into that here. I'm going to break down the admissions statistics just so you can see exactly why a boost is undeniable and necessary.

This is what I got by doing calculations using UVA Law's Stats from 2009:

TOTAL 2009 Applications: 7,880
Out-of-state: 7092 [calculated using the former dean's 9 to 1 ratio]
In-state: 788 [calculated using the former dean's 9 to 1 ratio])
TOTAL 2009 Matriculants: 368
-------OOS Matriculants: 221 for only a 3.1% enrollment/applied rate [calculated using 60-40 percentage from former dean]
----In-state Matriculants: 147 for a 18.7% enrollment/applied rate! [calculated using 60-40 percentage from former dean]


*Now here's a kicker. If you take the former dean's ambiguous wording, "Yet nonresidents get only 1.5 seats for every resident seat in the entering class – 60 percent nonresidents to 40 percent residents", to refer to applicants accepted and not actually enrolled these stats would come into play:

Total 2009 Accepted Applicants: 1150 for a 14.6% TOTAL acceptance rate
----Out of state apps Accepted: 690 for a 9.7% acceptance rate
----In-state applicants accepted: 460 for a whopping 58.4% acceptance rate :shock: *

(It should be noted that I believe he was referring to the actual enrolled class, however if you accept a certain amount of students there's no way of knowing exactly what percentage will matriculate in order to fulfill the 60-40 requirement so that's the part that confuses me about his comment. Maybe if a certain amount of accepted OOS actually enroll, you bring in-state apps off the wait list.. I don't know)


If after seeing these numbers you don't believe VA residents are given a boost, then I really don't know what to say to you bud. It's as clear as day, the numbers don't lie. If you'd like me to break out how you can use the USNWR reported statistics to disguise the fact that VA residents actually aren't as competitive I can do that for you as well.


well, go on. give us another.

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ben4847
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Re: Do VA residents have a leg up at UVA?

Postby ben4847 » Thu Jan 19, 2012 1:27 am

5ky wrote:Lot of misinformation in here. UVA does not receive funding from the state, it is entirely self-sustaining. That being said, the school of law voluntarily chooses to reserve about 40% of seats for in-state residents; they are not required to do so, however.


explain

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Re: Do VA residents have a leg up at UVA?

Postby 09042014 » Thu Jan 19, 2012 1:28 am

The huge boost is that once you get above 170 and you have a 3.0, and you have VA residency. You are auto-admitted. http://uva.lawschoolnumbers.com/applica ... ,8&type=jd

Or if you get a 3.85 and have a decent lsat you are auto admit. Checking LSN it's hard to figure where the limit is. Low 160's seems like the limit.

Compare that to the general LSN population and that is a clear advantage. Everyone else gets WL'd unless they ED.

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5ky
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Re: Do VA residents have a leg up at UVA?

Postby 5ky » Thu Jan 19, 2012 1:30 am

ben4847 wrote:
5ky wrote:Lot of misinformation in here. UVA does not receive funding from the state, it is entirely self-sustaining. That being said, the school of law voluntarily chooses to reserve about 40% of seats for in-state residents; they are not required to do so, however.


explain


? pretty self-explanatory

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ben4847
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Re: Do VA residents have a leg up at UVA?

Postby ben4847 » Thu Jan 19, 2012 1:31 am

ben4847 wrote:
5ky wrote:Lot of misinformation in here. UVA does not receive funding from the state, it is entirely self-sustaining. That being said, the school of law voluntarily chooses to reserve about 40% of seats for in-state residents; they are not required to do so, however.


explain


are you talking about this university of virginia?
"Out of the appropriation made by the General Assembly for the support of the University of Virginia, there shall be first set apart, annually, a sum sufficient to pay the interest accruing on the existing interest-bearing debt of the University, except as provided in § 23-21, and to constitute a sinking fund for the liquidation of the principal of the same; and such sum shall be applied to no other purpose or object whatever."

Va. Code Ann. § 23-67 (West)

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Re: Do VA residents have a leg up at UVA?

Postby 5ky » Thu Jan 19, 2012 1:32 am

ben4847 wrote:
ben4847 wrote:
5ky wrote:Lot of misinformation in here. UVA does not receive funding from the state, it is entirely self-sustaining. That being said, the school of law voluntarily chooses to reserve about 40% of seats for in-state residents; they are not required to do so, however.


explain


are you talking about this university of virginia?
"Out of the appropriation made by the General Assembly for the support of the University of Virginia, there shall be first set apart, annually, a sum sufficient to pay the interest accruing on the existing interest-bearing debt of the University, except as provided in § 23-21, and to constitute a sinking fund for the liquidation of the principal of the same; and such sum shall be applied to no other purpose or object whatever."

Va. Code Ann. § 23-67 (West)


Talking about the law school

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TrialLawyer16
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Re: Do VA residents have a leg up at UVA?

Postby TrialLawyer16 » Thu Jan 19, 2012 1:38 am

albanach wrote:
TrialLawyer16 wrote:You're actually saying the same thing I am. Your first sentence and the last two contradict each other.


No, they do not.

And yes, they do. Not to be a prick, but:

albanach wrote:Why is it hard to believe unless you think Virginia can't generate 115 students per year with numbers around those that get you in to UVA?
By making this statement you are attempting to use the theory that VA can generate 115 students per year with numbers around those that get in to UVA as support for your belief that UVA in-state residents are as competitive numerically as out-of-state students.

albanach wrote:The in-state tuition reduction isn't much, and other schools have just as much if not more scholarship money to throw around. If your numbers get you into a better school than UVa, I don't see many in-state students opting for the lower ranked school just because it's close to home.
All of these sentences hurt your argument because they are giving reasons as to why a VA resident with these numbers would NOT go to UVA. You are giving reasons as to why not every VA resident with numbers to get into UVA would go, which is true. These sentences do not help your cause.

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Re: Do VA residents have a leg up at UVA?

Postby sundance95 » Thu Jan 19, 2012 2:03 am

5ky wrote:
ben4847 wrote:
ben4847 wrote:
5ky wrote:Lot of misinformation in here. UVA does not receive funding from the state, it is entirely self-sustaining. That being said, the school of law voluntarily chooses to reserve about 40% of seats for in-state residents; they are not required to do so, however.


explain


are you talking about this university of virginia?
"Out of the appropriation made by the General Assembly for the support of the University of Virginia, there shall be first set apart, annually, a sum sufficient to pay the interest accruing on the existing interest-bearing debt of the University, except as provided in § 23-21, and to constitute a sinking fund for the liquidation of the principal of the same; and such sum shall be applied to no other purpose or object whatever."

Va. Code Ann. § 23-67 (West)


Talking about the law school

5ky is 100% correct about the law school being self-sustaining. UVA Law, like most law schools that are part of a larger research university, is actually 'taxed' by the University, i.e., is a revenue stream for the University. If you read the statute you cite, you'll see that it doesn't require any particular percentage of UVA's (let alone UVA Law's) students to be Virginians, nor does it require the law school to accept public funds. All it says is that public money given to the University must be used to pay off the interest of any of the University's debts first, and to the principal of its debt second, and be used for no other purpose other than those two.

5ky is also correct in that the University voluntarily elects to select approximately 40% of its class from Virginia applicants. The law school is not required by VA law to ensure that 40% of its class are VA residents. But, the law school does so in order to ensure that the General Assembly never decides to impose such a requirement. This is what I have been told in casual conversation with some of the admissions people.

Finally, being a VA resident is a huge boost for one's chances of admission to UVA Law. Competing against only the other VA residents for a particular seat within the 40% gives you a significantly increased chance of admission over someone competing against the many more non-resident applicants for the other 60% of seats. VA residents who apply early thus have a big leg up on non-VA residents.

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Re: Do VA residents have a leg up at UVA?

Postby albanach » Thu Jan 19, 2012 7:30 am

TrialLawyer16 wrote:And yes, they do. Not to be a prick, but:


I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

TrialLawyer16 wrote:
albanach wrote:The in-state tuition reduction isn't much, and other schools have just as much if not more scholarship money to throw around. If your numbers get you into a better school than UVa, I don't see many in-state students opting for the lower ranked school just because it's close to home.
All of these sentences hurt your argument because they are giving reasons as to why a VA resident with these numbers would NOT go to UVA. You are giving reasons as to why not every VA resident with numbers to get into UVA would go, which is true. These sentences do not help your cause.


No. I say if there are 115 with numbers around those that get you in to UVa, a majority of Va residents are likely to attend. If you have numbers greater than get you in to UVa, say you have numbers for CCN, then you're unlikely to attend. You are also not one of the 115 with numbers around those likely to get into UVa and therefore have zero impact statistically on what I have said.

I'm unsure why you have trouble comprehending this.

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Re: Do VA residents have a leg up at UVA?

Postby albanach » Thu Jan 19, 2012 7:33 am

Desert Fox wrote:The huge boost is that once you get above 170 and you have a 3.0, and you have VA residency. You are auto-admitted. http://uva.lawschoolnumbers.com/applica ... ,8&type=jd

Or if you get a 3.85 and have a decent lsat you are auto admit. Checking LSN it's hard to figure where the limit is. Low 160's seems like the limit.

Compare that to the general LSN population and that is a clear advantage. Everyone else gets WL'd unless they ED.



Of the folk you link to, all the ones close to the numbers you quote applied ED. It's common knowledge that an ED applicant gets a huge boost in admission at UVa.

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Re: Do VA residents have a leg up at UVA?

Postby 09042014 » Thu Jan 19, 2012 7:40 am

albanach wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:The huge boost is that once you get above 170 and you have a 3.0, and you have VA residency. You are auto-admitted. http://uva.lawschoolnumbers.com/applica ... ,8&type=jd

Or if you get a 3.85 and have a decent lsat you are auto admit. Checking LSN it's hard to figure where the limit is. Low 160's seems like the limit.

Compare that to the general LSN population and that is a clear advantage. Everyone else gets WL'd unless they ED.



Of the folk you link to, all the ones close to the numbers you quote applied ED. It's common knowledge that an ED applicant gets a huge boost in admission at UVa.


Change the years around and you'll see plenty of splitters getting in without ED at UVA if they are residents.

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Re: Do VA residents have a leg up at UVA?

Postby TrialLawyer16 » Thu Jan 19, 2012 10:43 am

albanach wrote:
TrialLawyer16 wrote:And yes, they do. Not to be a prick, but:


I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

TrialLawyer16 wrote:
albanach wrote:The in-state tuition reduction isn't much, and other schools have just as much if not more scholarship money to throw around. If your numbers get you into a better school than UVa, I don't see many in-state students opting for the lower ranked school just because it's close to home.
All of these sentences hurt your argument because they are giving reasons as to why a VA resident with these numbers would NOT go to UVA. You are giving reasons as to why not every VA resident with numbers to get into UVA would go, which is true. These sentences do not help your cause.


No. I say if there are 115 with numbers around those that get you in to UVa, a majority of Va residents are likely to attend. If you have numbers greater than get you in to UVa, say you have numbers for CCN, then you're unlikely to attend. You are also not one of the 115 with numbers around those likely to get into UVa and therefore have zero impact statistically on what I have said.

I'm unsure why you have trouble comprehending this.

*sigh* And this is where you're wrong my friend. You're banking on 115 VA residents that have numbers that get them into MVPB and no higher because any higher would put them into a school that they would pick over UVA. Do you understand how ridiculous that sounds? You're underestimating how tough it is to get in to UVA.

UVA's median GPA: 3.85 (3.51-3.92) median LSAT: 170 (166-171)
UVA has the 4th highest median GPA in the entire country and is tied for the 6th highest median LSAT in the country. You can't just say "if you have numbers that get you in to UVA, but don't get you into CCN you're going to attend UVA if you're a resident" because a person with UVA's median gpa and lsat (3.85/170) is competitive at every school in the country. Therefore, by default your logic is wrong. I agree that the VA residents who get accepted to UVA and not CCN are probably more likely to attend UVA, but that student is probably not a 3.85/170 student, that student is probably the 3.6/168 student --> thereby, meaning a student the school had to dip a little to accept and these are not the students you are referring to. You've got to understand getting/giving accurate data when you're dealing with medians it is a very tricky game. When they say "our median is 3.85/170", they don't mean the median student has both a 3.85 gpa and a 170 lsat. They are referring to the median of the entire class. They could be using your gpa and my lsat for those statistics.

In the case of the calculations done on the 2009 statistics mentioned earlier would you rather be one of the 788 in-state applicants vying for 460 acceptances, or one of the 7,092 out of state applicants vying for 690 acceptances? And which do you think is probably tougher to break? I mean, I understand lawyers aren't mathematicians but come on.. I'd love to play poker with you. It's like you're trying to compare a 2-7 to pocket aces. You seem hellbent on defending your position regardless of the facts in your face. This is literally a ridiculous argument at this point.

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Re: Do VA residents have a leg up at UVA?

Postby pcwcecac » Thu Jan 19, 2012 11:27 am

So I made a poll to see what everyone thinks about applying this round, late in the cycle. Thanks!

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TrialLawyer16
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Re: Do VA residents have a leg up at UVA?

Postby TrialLawyer16 » Thu Jan 19, 2012 11:58 am

pcwcecac wrote:So I made a poll to see what everyone thinks about applying this round, late in the cycle. Thanks!

When it comes to money, from LSN it seems like the best choice isn't to ED. If you RD I would lean towards you getting in since you're in-state, but money may be tough this late in the game. But the thing is while you have a good chance at money next cycle, it's not guaranteed if you waited so it's a tough call.
Last edited by TrialLawyer16 on Thu Jan 19, 2012 12:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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IAFG
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Re: Do VA residents have a leg up at UVA?

Postby IAFG » Thu Jan 19, 2012 12:01 pm

TrialLawyer16 wrote: would you rather be one of the 788 in-state applicants vying for 460 acceptances, or one of the 7,092 out of state applicants vying for 690 acceptances? And which do you think is probably tougher to break?

You forget that they can make up for a lack of in-staters through transfers, which they do.

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Re: Do VA residents have a leg up at UVA?

Postby ben4847 » Thu Jan 19, 2012 12:06 pm

sundance95 wrote:
5ky wrote:
ben4847 wrote:
5ky wrote:Lot of misinformation in here. UVA does not receive funding from the state, it is entirely self-sustaining. That being said, the school of law voluntarily chooses to reserve about 40% of seats for in-state residents; they are not required to do so, however.




are you talking about this university of virginia?
"Out of the appropriation made by the General Assembly for the support of the University of Virginia, there shall be first set apart, annually, a sum sufficient to pay the interest accruing on the existing interest-bearing debt of the University, except as provided in § 23-21, and to constitute a sinking fund for the liquidation of the principal of the same; and such sum shall be applied to no other purpose or object whatever."

Va. Code Ann. § 23-67 (West)


Talking about the law school

5ky is 100% correct about the law school being self-sustaining. UVA Law, like most law schools that are part of a larger research university, is actually 'taxed' by the University, i.e., is a revenue stream for the University. If you read the statute you cite, you'll see that it doesn't require any particular percentage of UVA's (let alone UVA Law's) students to be Virginians, nor does it require the law school to accept public funds. All it says is that public money given to the University must be used to pay off the interest of any of the University's debts first, and to the principal of its debt second, and be used for no other purpose other than those two.

5ky is also correct in that the University voluntarily elects to select approximately 40% of its class from Virginia applicants. The law school is not required by VA law to ensure that 40% of its class are VA residents. But, the law school does so in order to ensure that the General Assembly never decides to impose such a requirement. This is what I have been told in casual conversation with some of the admissions people.

Finally, being a VA resident is a huge boost for one's chances of admission to UVA Law. Competing against only the other VA residents for a particular seat within the 40% gives you a significantly increased chance of admission over someone competing against the many more non-resident applicants for the other 60% of seats. VA residents who apply early thus have a big leg up on non-VA residents.


I don't doubt that the law school itself makes more money than it spends- as to most law schools.
And I can read the statute just fine.

The point is that the University does receive state funding, and while the statute does not require a minimum percentage of in state students, it is not hard to imagine that they would lose their funding if it dropped too low. And probably, if the law school percentage dropped too low, the University would still lose funding even though the law school division brings in more money than it spends.

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Re: Do VA residents have a leg up at UVA?

Postby pcwcecac » Thu Jan 19, 2012 12:07 pm

TrialLawyer16 wrote:
pcwcecac wrote:So I made a poll to see what everyone thinks about applying this round, late in the cycle. Thanks!

When it comes to money, from LSN it seems like the best choice isn't to ED. If you RD I would lean towards you getting in since you're in-state, but money may be tough this late in the game. But the thing is you're not guaranteed money next cycle either if you waited, so it's a tough call.


Thanks. I really wasn't planning to apply this cycle. But I got fee waivers after the score release, and my rec writers were surprisingly quick.

I thought I should at least consider applying to UVA this round

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TrialLawyer16
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Re: Do VA residents have a leg up at UVA?

Postby TrialLawyer16 » Thu Jan 19, 2012 12:16 pm

IAFG wrote:
TrialLawyer16 wrote: would you rather be one of the 788 in-state applicants vying for 460 acceptances, or one of the 7,092 out of state applicants vying for 690 acceptances? And which do you think is probably tougher to break?

You forget that they can make up for a lack of in-staters through transfers, which they do.

I think that's out of the scope of this argument though. Transfers aren't included in that "we had 40% residents in our entering class" pledge they have, or in their entering class statistics. While even if they did for some reason include those numbers in with the entering class, the law school has stated they usually only enroll 20 or less transfers a year out of about 200 applications.




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