Interesting, 155/3.9 - opinions appreciated

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tyro
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Re: Interesting, 155/3.9 - opinions appreciated

Postby tyro » Thu Jan 12, 2012 11:56 pm

These are some "best value" schools. They're mainly only a good value if you're a resident though.

http://cache.abovethelaw.com/uploads/20 ... chools.jpg

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YourCaptain
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Re: Interesting, 155/3.9 - opinions appreciated

Postby YourCaptain » Fri Jan 13, 2012 12:07 am

for being a philosopher king and being able to "reason" so well your garbage arguments have solidly demonstrated you couldnt reason your way out of a paper bag.

what if one major is more difficult at school A and and at school B it's very easy? what if this changes every year? or every semester?

maybe my major's requirements were harder than yours...and that's why my ug gpa was lower.

youre an excellent flame but your complaints about the lsat have been parroted by too many people and people like the op need to understand that.

op is going to have $200k of nondischargeable debt (protip: not even the equitable power of section 105 of the bankruptcy code can permit the judge to reduce the debt unless it's reducing your lifestyle to the extent that people in mogadishu have it better than you). have fun

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MachineLemon
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Re: Interesting, 155/3.9 - opinions appreciated

Postby MachineLemon » Fri Jan 13, 2012 12:28 am

Not sure if this has been said, OP, but you are applying late in the cycle. That's probably gonna hurt your chances across the board. Wait a year and (sorry, but gotta say it) retake.

Consider the following:
Loan Balance: $150,000.00
Adjusted Loan Balance: $150,000.00
Loan Interest Rate: 6.80%
Loan Fees: 0.00%
Loan Term: 15 years
Minimum Payment: $50.00
Enrollment Status: Graduating Soon
Degree Program: Lawyer (LLB or JD)
Total Years in College: 3 years
Average Debt per Year: $50,000.00

Monthly Loan Payment: $1,331.53
Number of Payments: 180

Cumulative Payments: $239,674.11
Total Interest Paid: $89,674.11

Play around with this a while:

http://www.finaid.org/calculators/loanpayments.phtml

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Philosopher King
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Re: Interesting, 155/3.9 - opinions appreciated

Postby Philosopher King » Fri Jan 13, 2012 12:54 am

paratactical wrote:I also think that GPA is a weak stat because grades can waiver from professor to professor even within a school. IMO, if you're going to toss one of the two numbers, it should hands-down be the GPA. Applications based on standardized tests, resumes, and essay would more accurately represent the qualifications needed for effective legal practice than a set of grades, resumes, and essays would.


Yeah, this makes sense. Toss out three-and-a-half years of hard work and instead use a three hour multiple-choice test administered under absurd and tyrannical conditions. How could I possibly argue against that idea? Why even have undergrad completion as a requirement? Why not go right to law school after high school so long as you can get a good LSAT score? Actually this is a good argument I am putting forth. You are basically saying it would be better to do that than drop the LSAT requirement.

snehpets wrote:Yes. This. For instance, as you yourself pointed out OP, Brown seems to give out As pretty easily, while other schools do grade deflation and barely anyone gets As. Furthermore, these differences can occur even between professors at the same school. Because grading by professors is subjective, there will probably never be any way to objectively measure one's gpa against someone else's with any kind of accuracy.


Many schools have data available that makes it easy to know about these things. Temple Law, for example, should be familiar with my university. Temple is one of the state related universities, mine is one of the state owned.

omninode wrote:I was not talking about your school specifically. It's great that your school had high standards, congratulations. My point was that standards vary from school to school (and even within schools, between departments or professors), making GPA an unreliable measure of students' abilities.


I attended two different institutions, the second of which is a well respected university with a mean GPA of 3.07. Unlike elite universities there is no grade inflation at either of these schools. I have had about 26 different professors too. The fact that I have gotten As in every single class at both schools under two dozen different professors says a lot, don't you think? I had to work for my grade.

YourCaptain wrote:for being a philosopher king and being able to "reason" so well your garbage arguments have solidly demonstrated you couldnt reason your way out of a paper bag.

what if one major is more difficult at school A and and at school B it's very easy? what if this changes every year? or every semester?

maybe my major's requirements were harder than yours...and that's why my ug gpa was lower.

youre an excellent flame but your complaints about the lsat have been parroted by too many people and people like the op need to understand that.


I have addressed all of this. Your taking the focus off of the problems with the LSAT. I never said there weren't problems with using GPA or that GPA is a perfect indicator but it is the best we have, especially for philosophy majors.

snehpets
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Re: Interesting, 155/3.9 - opinions appreciated

Postby snehpets » Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:03 am

Argh. You're wrong, but several people have explained why and you aren't seeing it, so i'll just forfeit. I admire your persistence I suppose.

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Philosopher King
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Re: Interesting, 155/3.9 - opinions appreciated

Postby Philosopher King » Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:15 am

snehpets wrote:Argh. You're wrong, but several people have explained why and you aren't seeing it, so i'll just forfeit. I admire your persistence I suppose.


Two choices, which one is better: Removing the requirement that law students must have Bachelor's degrees OR (exclusive or) removing the requirement that law students must taker the LSAT? If the LSAT should be more highly valued than you should also agree that it is better to require good LSAT scores than any undergrad performance whatsoever.

bracton
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Re: Interesting, 155/3.9 - opinions appreciated

Postby bracton » Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:18 am

Philosopher King wrote: If the LSAT should be more highly valued than you should also agree that it is better to require good LSAT scores than any undergrad performance whatsoever.


Wtf? Let me guess - was logic games your worst LSAT section?

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Dr. Filth
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Re: Interesting, 155/3.9 - opinions appreciated

Postby Dr. Filth » Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:21 am

Maybe your philosophy classes were easier than the average upper level course at your school. Or maybe philosophy classes are just like reeeally easy to get an A in.

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Philosopher King
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Re: Interesting, 155/3.9 - opinions appreciated

Postby Philosopher King » Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:32 am

Dr. Filth wrote:Maybe your philosophy classes were easier than the average upper level course at your school. Or maybe philosophy classes are just like reeeally easy to get an A in.


Two of my professors put class grades up on D2L so I can tell what grades other students got. B is almost always the average grade, but oftentimes it is lower. I can give you two quick examples of my academic performance. First, in my 400-level political philosophy class, I was the only student (out of about 15) to get 100% on my three mid-term essays. In fact, nobody else even got all the points on one but I got all the points on all three. The class average was a low C. The professor asked me, as a favor, to use my essays as examples to students who question why they didn't get more points. She actually sent an email out with my essays (name removed) to all students as well. In my Ancient Philosophy class, only one-third of the students got the attendance bonus, which required one or no classes being missed. I missed no classes and I was never late, just as is the case with every other class. I also got the highest participation grade and I was in the highest cohort for pop quiz grades, meaning I did the readings, understood them to a reasonable degree and was able to participate in class discussion. My participation grade was nonetheless a 95% but nobody got higher. I wonder how I could have participated more when in many classes he would say "anyone other than [my name], want to answer." I could give more such examples.

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Dr. Filth
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Re: Interesting, 155/3.9 - opinions appreciated

Postby Dr. Filth » Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:43 am

Philosopher King wrote:
Dr. Filth wrote:Maybe your philosophy classes were easier than the average upper level course at your school. Or maybe philosophy classes are just like reeeally easy to get an A in.


Two of my professors put class grades up on D2L so I can tell what grades other students got. B is almost always the average grade, but oftentimes it is lower. I can give you two quick examples of my academic performance. First, in my 400-level political philosophy class, I was the only student (out of about 15) to get 100% on my three mid-term essays. In fact, nobody else even got all the points on one but I got all the points on all three. The class average was a low C. The professor asked me, as a favor, to use my essays as examples to students who question why they didn't get more points. She actually sent an email out with my essays (name removed) to all students as well. In my Ancient Philosophy class, only one-third of the students got the attendance bonus, which required one or no classes being missed. I missed no classes and I was never late, just as is the case with every other class. I also got the highest participation grade and I was in the highest cohort for pop quiz grades, meaning I did the readings, understood them to a reasonable degree and was able to participate in class discussion. My participation grade was nonetheless a 95% but nobody got higher. I wonder how I could have participated more when in many classes he would say "anyone other than [my name], want to answer." I could give more such examples.

How are all of these "skills" are better predictive of law school success than what an engineer goes through to get a B?

nsbane
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Re: Interesting, 155/3.9 - opinions appreciated

Postby nsbane » Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:47 am

OP,

I am going to be to the point. Please don't think I'm being rude. Your original post is fairly ridiculous and I have a feeling you don't even realize it. The biggest sign is that you list NYU as a reach. With your LSAT score, using "reach" in that way, you could also credibly list Yale and Harvard as reaches. I.e. within the realm of possibilities in this universe. However, will it happen? No.

You have also listed no less than 27 universities for people to evaluate your chances, including probability of getting financial aid. You have to realize that people have better things to do than give you a detailed point by point analysis on your chances at each school. What people have done instead is take a holistic approach, advising you that you could improve your LSAT and get into much better schools than you will. You have an incredible GPA that few people have (I have a measly 3.4 and was incredibly lazy in college). This is an asset people would kill for, and in many ways is harder to achieve than a high LSAT. There is no course 3 month course we can take to bump our GPAs up 15 points.

I also have a feeling that the reason why you want to go to law school is because you want to be a lawyer. Fin. It seems like you haven't considered where you want to live, where you want to practice, what kind of law you're interested in, etc... I think this because you listed 27 law schools spread out across the country. And you have already said you won't retake the LSAT, nor will you reconsider going to law school. So, based on your restrictions, here is my advice:

1) Apply to as many universities as you can afford.
2) Go to the highest ranking university on USNR.

Of course, my feeling is that you were going to do this anyway. When you graduate and are $200,000 in debt with no job, perhaps you can return to the board and ask some of us for career advice. You can also tell us you won't consider any other job but working as a lawyer, and must make enough to pay $2,000 in interest payments per month.

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Philosopher King
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Re: Interesting, 155/3.9 - opinions appreciated

Postby Philosopher King » Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:48 am

Dr. Filth wrote:How are all of these "skills" are better predictive of law school success than what an engineer goes through to get a B?


I'm not dissing Bs in engineering school but for law school success? You have to be joking. I don't beleive engineers are taught to think the way a lawyer does nearly as much as philosophers are.

nsbane
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Re: Interesting, 155/3.9 - opinions appreciated

Postby nsbane » Fri Jan 13, 2012 2:04 am

Philosopher King,

I understand your frustration with the LSAT. However, your argument against the LSAT is an argument against standardized testing in general. SAT, ACT, AP tests, Foreign Service test, other employment tests, GRE, GMAT, MCAT, etc... The list goes on.

You have to realize that standardized tests exist for a reason. College admissions receive thousands upon thousands of applications. It is not humanly possible to evaluate schools based on individual college professors in each undergraduate college. That is just not going to happen. Schools need an arbitrary cut-off. In fact, the LSAT makes college admissions more democratic. Before the arbitrary cut-off was the WASPiness of your last name and the names of your undergraduate & prep schools.

There are over 2,000 colleges in America. Let's say there's an average of 100 professors at each college. You are saying each law school should have an evaluation system that takes into account 200,000 professors? Not to mention the 4 or 5 classes that each professor teaches - making that over 1,000,000 individual classes (because Philosophy with prof A is a cakewalk, but with Professor Z is an intellectually rigorous course). And of course, as new professors are hired, the colleges must evaluate the progress of each class they teach so in the end they would know how to score it in their criteria ...

That is just ridiculous, and I am chalking it up to the fact that you are still really upset with your score. I don't blame you. But you could channel this frustration into taking an LSAT course or two, prep tests, and resolving to do better next time.

thederangedwang
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Re: Interesting, 155/3.9 - opinions appreciated

Postby thederangedwang » Fri Jan 13, 2012 2:05 am

Philosopher King wrote:
Dr. Filth wrote:How are all of these "skills" are better predictive of law school success than what an engineer goes through to get a B?


I'm not dissing Bs in engineering school but for law school success? You have to be joking. I don't beleive engineers are taught to think the way a lawyer does nearly as much as philosophers are.

Engineers (or rather those with engineering or science/math majors) on average score better or the same as phil majors on the lsat...most huma majors do piss poor though.

Having said that, your argument is laughable.

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Philosopher King
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Re: Interesting, 155/3.9 - opinions appreciated

Postby Philosopher King » Fri Jan 13, 2012 2:11 am

nsbane wrote:Philosopher King,
I understand your frustration with the LSAT. However, your argument against the LSAT is an argument against standardized testing in general. SAT, ACT, AP tests, Foreign Service test, other employment tests, GRE, GMAT, MCAT, etc... The list goes on.


Maybe it is. I'll tell you one thing though, I doubt I would have scored high enough on the SAT to get into the university I attend now. But yet look how well I do. I'm what you could call a non-standard person.

nsbane wrote:There are over 2,000 colleges in America. Let's say there's an average of 100 professors at each college. You are saying each law school should have an evaluation system that takes into account 200,000 professors? Not to mention the 4 or 5 classes that each professor teaches - making that over 1,000,000 individual classes (because Philosophy with prof A is a cakewalk, but with Professor Z is an intellectually rigorous course). And of course, as new professors are hired, the colleges must evaluate the progress of each class they teach so in the end they would know how to score it in their criteria ...

That is just ridiculous, and I am chalking it up to the fact that you are still really upset with your score. I don't blame you. But you could channel this frustration into taking an LSAT course or two, prep tests, and resolving to do better next time.


This is what we call a strawman argument. You put forth an argument that I didn't make, claim I made it and then expose it as ridiculous and then pretend to have demolished my real argument. Sorry, you're not going to slip that one by a philosophy major!

nsbane
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Re: Interesting, 155/3.9 - opinions appreciated

Postby nsbane » Fri Jan 13, 2012 2:18 am

Philosopher King, I think the answer is you should open your own law school. For your admissions test, I recommend you have applicants draw interesting shapes, with the finalists going on to a lymeric competition and pie eating contest.

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danitt
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Re: Interesting, 155/3.9 - opinions appreciated

Postby danitt » Fri Jan 13, 2012 2:20 am

Maybe we should get LSAC to start writing our responses because apparently the test is the only thing that slips by him.

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Philosopher King
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Re: Interesting, 155/3.9 - opinions appreciated

Postby Philosopher King » Fri Jan 13, 2012 2:24 am

nsbane wrote:Philosopher King, I think the answer is you should open your own law school. For your admissions test, I recommend you have applicants draw interesting shapes, with the finalists going on to a lymeric competition and pie eating contest.


Or how about for my admissions test I pick the candidates that will be the best law students based on a holistic review of their credentials. Scholarships would be awarded accordingly.

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Dr. Filth
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Re: Interesting, 155/3.9 - opinions appreciated

Postby Dr. Filth » Fri Jan 13, 2012 2:32 am

At your law school will they give bonus points for attendance?

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Philosopher King
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Re: Interesting, 155/3.9 - opinions appreciated

Postby Philosopher King » Fri Jan 13, 2012 2:34 am

Dr. Filth wrote:At your law school will they give bonus points for attendance?


I don't know. Even if there wasn't one bonus point for attendance I got a very safe-range A. I would still have As without good attendance, I'm just explaining how good of a student I am. I'm devoted. I haven't had an arthritis flare-up in college though yet. But, if I do, it will be okay because I never miss class!

djkrish
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Re: Interesting, 155/3.9 - opinions appreciated

Postby djkrish » Fri Jan 13, 2012 2:51 am

you might want to look at schools that weigh gpa more than lsat to help narrow down that list. also, those predictor calculator things are terrible. Id look at law school numbers to give you an idea of which schools you have a better chance at.

Honestly though, I'm sorry to beat a dead horse but if you've got that philosophy background and a great gpa, my guess is you're not stupid and you just had a rough test or something... i vote retake.

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Tom Joad
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Re: Interesting, 155/3.9 - opinions appreciated

Postby Tom Joad » Fri Jan 13, 2012 10:33 am

Philosopher King wrote:
nsbane wrote:Philosopher King, I think the answer is you should open your own law school. For your admissions test, I recommend you have applicants draw interesting shapes, with the finalists going on to a lymeric competition and pie eating contest.


Or how about for my admissions test I pick the candidates that will be the best law students based on a holistic review of their credentials. Scholarships would be awarded accordingly.


Given the current way schools are ranked, if all schools used the holistic approach you advocate, what is the highest school you think you could get into?

snehpets
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Re: Interesting, 155/3.9 - opinions appreciated

Postby snehpets » Fri Jan 13, 2012 12:18 pm

Philosopher King wrote:
snehpets wrote:Argh. You're wrong, but several people have explained why and you aren't seeing it, so i'll just forfeit. I admire your persistence I suppose.


Two choices, which one is better: Removing the requirement that law students must have Bachelor's degrees OR (exclusive or) removing the requirement that law students must taker the LSAT? If the LSAT should be more highly valued than you should also agree that it is better to require good LSAT scores than any undergrad performance whatsoever.


The reasoning that led you to this is flawed. Just because I think LSAT should be more highly valued doesn't by default mean that I think undergrad is worthless. I think undergrad serves several purposes: it's a stepping stone between the kind of work required in high school and the work required in law school, it usually teaches some level of writing skill, it allows a lot of students to get out on their own in a way that wouldn't be realistic otherwise, it generally teaches a higher level of analysis than is taught in high school. You'll notice that none of those even relate to grades. However, I do think the gpa requirement is useful in that you can see that a student is either intelligent or worked hard and got a good GPA or is either dumb, lazy, or had some bad experience that led to a bad one. I see it as sort of a soft factor, a general idea of whether a student is a good one or a bad one. However, differences in grading from professor to professor and school to school are too nuanced for it to be fair to base admission on something do far from standardized.


You mentioned the strawman argument thing with another poster who, it seemed to me, described exactly the situation you're advocating and then explained why it wouldn't work. If you agree with him that it wouldn't work and claim you weren't suggesting that system in the first place, what were you suggesting? 'holistic review' is basically a nonsense term. What would you suggest the specific process be, and how would you account for the inherent unfairness of a system which would presumably place heavy weight on a measure as subjective as an applicant's gpa?

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romothesavior
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Re: Interesting, 155/3.9 - opinions appreciated

Postby romothesavior » Fri Jan 13, 2012 12:58 pm

Hope you enjoy living with your parents and working at Starbucks. How someone could get that GPA and be content with a horrendous LAST score is beyond me. Such a waste.

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kalvano
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Re: Interesting, 155/3.9 - opinions appreciated

Postby kalvano » Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:02 pm

Philosopher King wrote: I'm just explaining how good of a student I am.


Not that good, since the LSAT is a learnable test.




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