Waterloo Engineering - Google, Facebook - 175 LSAT

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Corwin
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Re: Waterloo Engineering - Google, Facebook - 175 LSAT

Postby Corwin » Wed Jan 04, 2012 7:50 pm

decaf735 wrote:this is why everyone is telling you to go into the field of engineering--those 6 internships will probably weigh a huge amount if you are to pursue that career and likely will land you a great job in that field.

but they are all for naught if you go to law school.

I agree that the OP should work full time before considering law school, but this isn't necessarily true. Demand for engineers in his field is so high that he would have no trouble reentering the market (albeit at a lower rung).

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emkay625
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Re: Waterloo Engineering - Google, Facebook - 175 LSAT

Postby emkay625 » Wed Jan 04, 2012 7:55 pm

canadianengineer wrote:Is there really only a negligible weight placed in having 6 internships completed (2 years of work experience, as an undergraduate)? These internships have been extremely high quality, and I have had a chance to work on some extremely user-facing and user-impacting products. I believe I have the experience to write a very solid letter along with my application, and explain my (somewhat) out-of-the-norm circumstances.

I understand that admissions are largely a numbers game (LSAT and GPA), but is the benefit of such a different background really that meaningless?


They only really matter if they're trying to decide between you and someone else.

Also, at HYS, there will be plenty of other people with interesting backgrounds for the adcomms to choose from.

c3pO4
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Re: Waterloo Engineering - Google, Facebook - 175 LSAT

Postby c3pO4 » Wed Jan 04, 2012 7:57 pm

canadianengineer wrote:I think the opportunity for what I want to do, as a lawyer involved in technology, is there. Going to law school is the next step for me.

Is there anything I can do to improve my application for Stanford? It is right in the heart of Silicon Valley, a place I have spent a lot of time helping build technology products.


OK you "think?" We are all here to tell you the job as you described it doesn't exist. Your job will be, without a doubt, either filing patents for software, mobile phones, etc. or suing people who infringe software patents. Is that what you want to do? If yes, go to law school. If you want to shape how law applies to technology, you are going to be really kicking yourself once you realize you were wrong.

ETA: Your internships won't help you for summer jobs in law school, and in any event, the only job that matters is the job after your 2L summer. For that, having some internship experience at Google/FB will just help you get more screeners/callback interviews as long as your grades meet a certain cutoff. Your cutoff will be slightly lower because you have a BS in computer science, not because you were an intern at Google. Then, it's up to you not to blow callbacks to get a summer job. You'll probably be fine because you've had interview experience.

Seriously, bro, you are the stereotypical undergrad who wants to go to law school due to a colossal misconception of what it means to be a lawyer and the state of the legal market, who also then refuses to listen when people who actually know try to give you good advice, and gets offended. Have seen it happen so many times. You'll eventually wish you listened, everybody wakes up eventually.
Last edited by c3pO4 on Wed Jan 04, 2012 8:01 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Corwin
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Re: Waterloo Engineering - Google, Facebook - 175 LSAT

Postby Corwin » Wed Jan 04, 2012 7:57 pm

canadianengineer wrote:Is there anything I can do to improve my application for Stanford? It is right in the heart of Silicon Valley, a place I have spent a lot of time helping build technology products.

As a general rule, work experience will improve your application, both through the work experience itself and a stronger letter of recommendation. Working for a year: (1) helps your law school application, (2) gives you the knowledge of what working full time is really like, and (3) puts money in the bank. I've also heard that work experience is a great differentiator during OCI. Working is a HUGE win. You don't lose anything by going to law school a year later. You really don't. Your LSAT and recommendations are good for a few years.

Seriously dude. Negotiate for 80-100K full time + 10-20K signing bonus. Enjoy making money, work on your application, and apply to law school as a richer and more experienced person. If you do end up at law school, you're be at an advantage over your peers because you have work experience.

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Re: Waterloo Engineering - Google, Facebook - 175 LSAT

Postby ajr » Wed Jan 04, 2012 8:02 pm

People here, and in law school in general, are pretty clueless about how much engineering can suck. Yep, I've done it for 8 years. They think engineers are busy 'creating' cool technologies every day.
That is as much from the truth as lawyers making great closing speeches in trials every day.

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Corwin
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Re: Waterloo Engineering - Google, Facebook - 175 LSAT

Postby Corwin » Wed Jan 04, 2012 8:04 pm

ajr wrote:People here, and in law school in general, are pretty clueless about how much engineering can suck. Yep, I've done it for 8 years. They think engineers are busy 'creating' cool technologies every day.
That is as much from the truth as lawyers making great closing speeches in trials every day.

I work in the OP's industry and if someone with his background ends up in a job that sucks, they're doing it wrong. Programming talent is a seller's market.

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Re: Waterloo Engineering - Google, Facebook - 175 LSAT

Postby ajr » Wed Jan 04, 2012 8:05 pm

Corwin wrote:
ajr wrote:People here, and in law school in general, are pretty clueless about how much engineering can suck. Yep, I've done it for 8 years. They think engineers are busy 'creating' cool technologies every day.
That is as much from the truth as lawyers making great closing speeches in trials every day.

I work in the OP's industry and if someone with his background ends up in a job that sucks, they're doing it wrong. Programming talent is a seller's market.


If that is true, it makes me wonder why you are wasting time on law school forums instead of making your millions in the Valley?

ajr
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Re: Waterloo Engineering - Google, Facebook - 175 LSAT

Postby ajr » Wed Jan 04, 2012 8:09 pm

Corwin wrote:
ajr wrote:People here, and in law school in general, are pretty clueless about how much engineering can suck. Yep, I've done it for 8 years. They think engineers are busy 'creating' cool technologies every day.
That is as much from the truth as lawyers making great closing speeches in trials every day.

I work in the OP's industry and if someone with his background ends up in a job that sucks, they're doing it wrong. Programming talent is a seller's market.


You seem to be a young and eager grad, so I will let you figure things out for yourself. Just FYI - I have hired people with your background, from your undergrad school many years back; so I do know what I am talking about.

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Corwin
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Re: Waterloo Engineering - Google, Facebook - 175 LSAT

Postby Corwin » Wed Jan 04, 2012 8:13 pm

ajr wrote:
Corwin wrote:
ajr wrote:People here, and in law school in general, are pretty clueless about how much engineering can suck. Yep, I've done it for 8 years. They think engineers are busy 'creating' cool technologies every day.
That is as much from the truth as lawyers making great closing speeches in trials every day.

I work in the OP's industry and if someone with his background ends up in a job that sucks, they're doing it wrong. Programming talent is a seller's market.


If that is true, it makes me wonder why you are wasting time on law school forums instead of making your millions in the Valley?

It's a true claim and verifiable. I recently went through the job search and I've been doing hiring since I started. Hiring competent people in this industry is tough and people willing to pay a lot of money to make it happen. People routinely get 5-10K as a referral bonus if they bring someone in who eventually gets hired.

As for why I'm on TLS? Well, I love my job. If I do go to law school, I wouldn't break even financially until a decade after I start. But there are other reasons besides financial why one might go to law school.

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Corwin
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Re: Waterloo Engineering - Google, Facebook - 175 LSAT

Postby Corwin » Wed Jan 04, 2012 8:14 pm

ajr wrote:
Corwin wrote:
ajr wrote:People here, and in law school in general, are pretty clueless about how much engineering can suck. Yep, I've done it for 8 years. They think engineers are busy 'creating' cool technologies every day.
That is as much from the truth as lawyers making great closing speeches in trials every day.

I work in the OP's industry and if someone with his background ends up in a job that sucks, they're doing it wrong. Programming talent is a seller's market.


You seem to be a young and eager grad, so I will let you figure things out for yourself. Just FYI - I have hired people with your background, from your undergrad school many years back; so I do know what I am talking about.

I currently work full time and just went through a job search. I know exactly what the current state of the market is. I had offers in the range that I previously described.

ajr
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Re: Waterloo Engineering - Google, Facebook - 175 LSAT

Postby ajr » Wed Jan 04, 2012 8:16 pm

Corwin wrote:
ajr wrote:
Corwin wrote:
ajr wrote:People here, and in law school in general, are pretty clueless about how much engineering can suck. Yep, I've done it for 8 years. They think engineers are busy 'creating' cool technologies every day.
That is as much from the truth as lawyers making great closing speeches in trials every day.

I work in the OP's industry and if someone with his background ends up in a job that sucks, they're doing it wrong. Programming talent is a seller's market.


You seem to be a young and eager grad, so I will let you figure things out for yourself. Just FYI - I have hired people with your background, from your undergrad school many years back; so I do know what I am talking about.

I currently work full time and just went through a job search. I know exactly what the current state of the market is. I had offers in the range that I previously described.


Hmmm, I wasn't doubting the job market or the salaries. I said engineering can suck after a few years. There are a lot of things apart from money that can make it suck. When did I ever give you the impression that I thought money in engineering sucks?

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Corwin
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Re: Waterloo Engineering - Google, Facebook - 175 LSAT

Postby Corwin » Wed Jan 04, 2012 8:19 pm

ajr wrote:Hmmm, I wasn't doubting the job market or the salaries. I said engineering can suck after a few years. There are a lot of things apart from money that can make it suck. When did I ever give you the impression that I thought money in engineering sucks?

That's a fair point. The farthest any of my close friends are from undergrad is 2 years out, so I suppose it is possible things could take a nosedive as some point. It just doesn't seem likely from my perspective.

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Re: Waterloo Engineering - Google, Facebook - 175 LSAT

Postby ajr » Wed Jan 04, 2012 8:22 pm

Corwin wrote:
ajr wrote:Hmmm, I wasn't doubting the job market or the salaries. I said engineering can suck after a few years. There are a lot of things apart from money that can make it suck. When did I ever give you the impression that I thought money in engineering sucks?

That's a fair point. The farthest any of my close friends are from undergrad is 2 years out, so I suppose it is possible things could take a nosedive as some point. It just doesn't seem likely from my perspective.


To a lot of people, it's as simple as wanting to do something different. Engineering is mostly about doing what your predecessors did with minor modifications. Gets boring (like anything else) after a while.

Some people go on to do MBAs (most of my friends did), some people start up. Some people do crazy things (like go to law school). Almost always, it's not for the money.

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Re: Waterloo Engineering - Google, Facebook - 175 LSAT

Postby serdog » Wed Jan 04, 2012 10:20 pm

canadianengineer wrote:
Thanks for all the information - you guys are swaying me to stay here and attend U of T, if possible (yn).

also look at UBC, UVIC (open until Feb.1 but a drop school and 70%/30% on GPA but you have a good shot) and Osgoode. Add Mcgill if your bilingual. As I said before unless YHS maybe just maybe CCN , or 100% of working in the States as a Canadian Canadian Law Schools> US Law Schools

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Re: Waterloo Engineering - Google, Facebook - 175 LSAT

Postby albusdumbledore » Wed Jan 04, 2012 10:31 pm

Corwin wrote:
ajr wrote:People here, and in law school in general, are pretty clueless about how much engineering can suck. Yep, I've done it for 8 years. They think engineers are busy 'creating' cool technologies every day.
That is as much from the truth as lawyers making great closing speeches in trials every day.

I work in the OP's industry and if someone with his background ends up in a job that sucks, they're doing it wrong. Programming talent is a seller's market.

Please tell me what I'm doing wrong then. I program 40 hours a week. I work on somebody else's ideas and somebody else's projects and most of the time I'm fixing somebody else's bugs. I get paid pretty well, and it's pretty easy money, but it isn't all it's cracked up to be or particularly intellectually satisfying . Not everybody gets to hang out at Apple and make the next iPhone. That being said, OP, if you've really had internships with Google and Facebook, do whatever you can to get on with them full time, even just for a year. Jobs like those are almost impossible to land, and you really may end up liking it.

canadianengineer
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Re: Waterloo Engineering - Google, Facebook - 175 LSAT

Postby canadianengineer » Wed Jan 04, 2012 10:59 pm

They aren't unattainable, and they aren't for everyone. I have two years of experience (granted, there is a difference between an internship and a full-time position), and I have a fairly solid understanding of what software engineering is like at these companies. In Canada, certain schools only look at a portion of your undergrad career (for instance, U of T only considers the best 3 out of your 4 years).

Are there any T-14 schools in the same boat? In addition, how do graduate GPAs play a role in law school admissions? I have heard that separate graduate degrees don't play a role at all, however, are there any special considerations for combined bachelors/masters? If not, how do they separate some courses (which count towards both the undergraduate as well as graduate degrees)?

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Re: Waterloo Engineering - Google, Facebook - 175 LSAT

Postby 062914123 » Wed Jan 04, 2012 11:33 pm

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timbs4339
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Re: Waterloo Engineering - Google, Facebook - 175 LSAT

Postby timbs4339 » Wed Jan 04, 2012 11:52 pm

OP: I had a chance to review over 100 resumes (of 1Ls at my CCN school) for my law journal, and while your experience is impressive, it is not really different from what most of the students have. You have to understand that the schools are looking at two statistics, LSAT and GPA, because these statistics make up 22% of the USNWR ranking. Because the magazine reports the 75/25 percentiles, there is a portion of the class below 25% that they can play around with. These spots mostly go to URM students and people with EXCEPTIONAL softs, such as many years of interesting work experience, PhDs, Rhodes Scholars, or Olympic Medalists. MOST of the people I screened graduated from prestigious universities and did multiple internships with F500 corporations or well-known organizations. They had this and still had the numbers to get in. Made me feel quite inadequate by comparison, but I digress.

In terms of your career, the line ITT ("ensuring that technology is developing within the bounds of the law") has been pretty abstract, but it sounds like you want to work for a non-profit organization like Software Freedom Law Center or maybe be a prof who specializes in tech law like Lessig or Eben Moglen. This may be possible down the line with a T14 JD (to be a prof will require good grades from HYS and a federal clerkship) and a few years of big firm tech-oriented WE. You should start research these organizations and professionals to get a better idea of what specifically you hope to accomplish in law school and as a lawyer.

These organizations will probably not hire you out of law school and these jobs are probably more competitive than the big law firm jobs. Perhaps they will even want to see that you worked in the industry full-time for a few years before applying. You will probably not be able to intern with these organizations during the year because they are not very big (unless you live near to their offices, I know SFLC is in NYC). You may be able to intern for them during 1L summer. During 2L summer, the work you will hopefully get that will lead to a full time post-grad offer will be much like people have described- paper pushing at a large law firm. It will not be glamorous and will not involve much responsibility and policy-making.




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