40+years old with an anticipated 3.90/165-168 LSAT Forum

[Eirhoff73]

I'm a white male nearing 40 years old (will be over 40 when applying). All of my LSAT pre-testing is coming up mid to high 160's. I have a 4.0 GPA in my undergraduate program so far, but I have a couple of math courses that will punish me (math is my kryptonite). I have also been invited to participate in the honors program at ASU. Does the honors program help in any way?

I also have to wonder if age is a factor in the selection process for tier one schools. Are there programs that will be more willing to accept a more seasoned pupil? If I end up with a 3.9 and a 165, where should I consider to increase my chances of a large scholarship award?

Thank you all for taking a moment to read this. Your comments and advice are all welcome.

[jerichosm]

It depends a lot on when you started your degree -- if you started it when you were younger and are just finishing it now, schools are going to want to know what you did with your time off. Likewise, if you just started your degree a few years ago, they're going to want to know what made you decide to go back to school, and they're going to be extremely curious in either case as to why you'd like to attend law school at your age. That aside, if you have solid reasoning, it could spin as a positive, especially if you have impressive work experience. Every school wants to have a "diverse" class, and your age and experience could be a plus.

[Veyron]

Barrett will not help (except possibly a marginal boost at ASU/U of A) and will quite possibly hurt since you have to take some GPA killing classes to be in it.

With those numbers you might possibly get a full ride at U of A which is probably the best value:job prospects ratio in that number range. You will also get a good deal of money from ASU if you apply early (which has the same job prospects but worse scholarships generally). If you get on the high end of that range, Cornell, Michigan, and Berkeley at sticker are all real possibilities.

The age won't help or hurt but if you've done something really cool in the 15 years you've got on the average incoming student, that might be a little boost. However, it is sometimes said that people over 40 sometimes have difficulty getting hired by larger firms, don't know how true this is.

[JamMasterJ]

Barrett will not help (except possibly a marginal boost at ASU/U of A) and will quite possibly hurt since you have to take some GPA killing classes to be in it.

With those numbers you might possibly get a full ride at U of A which is probably the best value:job prospects ratio in that number range. You will also get a good deal of money from ASU if you apply early (which has the same job prospects but worse scholarships generally). If you get on the high end of that range, Cornell, Michigan, and Berkeley at sticker are all real possibilities.

The age won't help or hurt but if you've done something really cool in the 15 years you've got on the average incoming student, that might be a little boost. However, it is sometimes said that people over 40 sometimes have difficulty getting hired by larger firms, don't know how true this is.

all of this. We can't say more without a real gpa and LSAT score, but getting the 4.0 should be your priority. If you end up close to that and with a 165+, you really shouldn't be going to ASU or zona

[kalvano]

You'll have trouble getting a firm job so it depends on what you want to do with the JD.

[Veyron]

Barrett will not help (except possibly a marginal boost at ASU/U of A) and will quite possibly hurt since you have to take some GPA killing classes to be in it.

With those numbers you might possibly get a full ride at U of A which is probably the best value:job prospects ratio in that number range. You will also get a good deal of money from ASU if you apply early (which has the same job prospects but worse scholarships generally). If you get on the high end of that range, Cornell, Michigan, and Berkeley at sticker are all real possibilities.

The age won't help or hurt but if you've done something really cool in the 15 years you've got on the average incoming student, that might be a little boost. However, it is sometimes said that people over 40 sometimes have difficulty getting hired by larger firms, don't know how true this is.

all of this. We can't say more without a real gpa and LSAT score, but getting the 4.0 should be your priority. If you end up close to that and with a 165+, you really shouldn't be going to ASU or zona

? If he gets a 165, ASU or Zona on a substantial scholarship is absolutely his best option since he just misses the cut-off for the T14 and the cut-off for $ at Texas, UCLA and Vanderbilt and the Arizona schools have as good or better job prospects than the rest of the T1. Its also worth noting that if he's in AZ at 40, no firms outside of AZ and NYC are going to touch him with a 10 foot stick since he will utterly fail the ties test so it would be really stupid to go out of state unless he gets T14, especially since we can presume that he would be giving up some contacts in Zona.

[JamMasterJ]

Barrett will not help (except possibly a marginal boost at ASU/U of A) and will quite possibly hurt since you have to take some GPA killing classes to be in it.

With those numbers you might possibly get a full ride at U of A which is probably the best value:job prospects ratio in that number range. You will also get a good deal of money from ASU if you apply early (which has the same job prospects but worse scholarships generally). If you get on the high end of that range, Cornell, Michigan, and Berkeley at sticker are all real possibilities.

The age won't help or hurt but if you've done something really cool in the 15 years you've got on the average incoming student, that might be a little boost. However, it is sometimes said that people over 40 sometimes have difficulty getting hired by larger firms, don't know how true this is.

all of this. We can't say more without a real gpa and LSAT score, but getting the 4.0 should be your priority. If you end up close to that and with a 165+, you really shouldn't be going to ASU or zona

? If he gets a 165, ASU or Zona on a substantial scholarship is absolutely his best option since he just misses the cut-off for the T14 and the cut-off for $ at Texas, UCLA and Vanderbilt and the Arizona schools have as good or better job prospects than the rest of the T1. Its also worth noting that if he's in AZ at 40, no firms outside of AZ and NYC are going to touch him with a 10 foot stick since he will utterly fail the ties test so it would be really stupid to go out of state unless he gets T14, especially since we can presume that he would be giving up some contacts in Zona.

mmm, possible if debt is that ultimate of a consideration. Otherwise, ED to UVA is a strong possibility

[Montevillian]

Guys... Both of his stats are hypothetical, hypothesizing is useless at this point.

Law schools don't really care about if you're an older applicant, they actually generally like work experience, so that's a positive for you. Getting hired after law school may be more difficult at your age, though. The honors program won't help your application. Just focus on keeping your GPA high and studying for the LSAT; come back when you have more certain numbers.
Good luck.

[Eirhoff73]

Thank you all that have sent regards and well wishes. To those that sent tips and encouragement, thank you as well.

I'm happy to say that law school isn't so much about a job for me as much as a prove it to myself kind of thing. My wife cringes when I tell people that I would be just as happy working at a McDonald's after law school as a huge law firm. This, of course, is a bold lie, but it sounds noble. The truth of the matter is that I have NEVER had a GPA higher than 2.0 (from middle school through high school). I have always been an underachiever that has been content just getting by in life. This is my chance to hit the "do over" button. I'm proud to say that, save math, I have no problem getting the grades that eluded me through my youth.

My only real dream is that I can show my children that I mean what I say when I tell them that school is their full time job. That this is what they do for a living. That they are able as long as they are willing. I've already proven what you can do with no education. Now it the time to show them what you can do with one.

[JoeMo]

So you're just finishing up your first UG degree at 40?

I don't know how good that's going to look. You're probably going to need to take a couple of years off and come back at 42 with work experience.

Unless, you've been lucky and have gotten some good work experience before and while obtaining your degree, then you can ignore my comment because then you win.

[KMaine]

It has been great for my kids to see me in law school for the past 3 years (I have a 10, 8 and 4 year old). It is also great for them to see that it is never too late to pursue your dreams. I think you should get that LSAT as high as possible and go to a school for free. Above posters are right that a big firm job will be difficult for you (I am 38 now and though I did get a job like that, it was really tough), but I found that smaller firms loved me. So if you keep your grades up, I think and keep your debt low, I think that you will be able to find something satifying. Another plus that I have cherished is that though law school is a "full time job" (I think how tough it is is a bit overblown), it is fairly flexible. I drove my kids to school and ate dinner with the family at least 95% of the time.

[Veyron]

Thank you all that have sent regards and well wishes. To those that sent tips and encouragement, thank you as well.

I'm happy to say that law school isn't so much about a job for me as much as a prove it to myself kind of thing. My wife cringes when I tell people that I would be just as happy working at a McDonald's after law school as a huge law firm. This, of course, is a bold lie, but it sounds noble. The truth of the matter is that I have NEVER had a GPA higher than 2.0 (from middle school through high school). I have always been an underachiever that has been content just getting by in life. This is my chance to hit the "do over" button. I'm proud to say that, save math, I have no problem getting the grades that eluded me through my youth.

My only real dream is that I can show my children that I mean what I say when I tell them that school is their full time job. That this is what they do for a living. That they are able as long as they are willing. I've already proven what you can do with no education. Now it the time to show them what you can do with one.

But why law school then? Why not a masters with tuition credit for being a teaching assistant or, better yet, a doctorate where they pay YOU to go to school?

[KMaine]

The above is a good question. I assume you have thought it through and have a particular reason to go to LS, but if you just want to go to school to set an example, there are cheaper (and more academically stimulating) alternatives.

[Eirhoff73]

So you're just finishing up your first UG degree at 40?

I don't know how good that's going to look. You're probably going to need to take a couple of years off and come back at 42 with work experience.

Unless, you've been lucky and have gotten some good work experience before and while obtaining your degree, then you can ignore my comment because then you win.

I think that I'm covered. I owned a business that was, sadly, a victim of the the housing bubble bursting. I have also had 13+ years in the military.

[JoeMo]

So you're just finishing up your first UG degree at 40?

I don't know how good that's going to look. You're probably going to need to take a couple of years off and come back at 42 with work experience.

Unless, you've been lucky and have gotten some good work experience before and while obtaining your degree, then you can ignore my comment because then you win.

I think that I'm covered. I owned a business that was, sadly, a victim of the the housing bubble bursting. I have also had 13+ years in the military.

Oh yeah, then basically you're good to go. I think you have a shot at a lot of schools as a non-trad student. You just have to make sure the rest of your application is solid.

[Eirhoff73]

To those who wonder why...I can't fully explain why in a mere 60,000 characters. It was always a dream of mine. I have an interest in either real estate or immigration law. Either way, I think this is still the best route. Maybe one day I may return to school again for my doctorate, but for now, I have a very specific dream. Thank you for all of your collective knowledge all the same.

BTW...I spoke with the councilor today. I found out that only one of my math classes will count toward my GPA. This raises my projected GPA to at least a 3.95! Woo hoo

[Mr. Pancakes]

To those who wonder why...I can't fully explain why in a mere 60,000 characters. It was always a dream of mine. I have an interest in either real estate or immigration law. Either way, I think this is still the best route. Maybe one day I may return to school again for my doctorate, but for now, I have a very specific dream. Thank you for all of your collective knowledge all the same.

BTW...I spoke with the councilor today. I found out that only one of my math classes will count toward my GPA. This raises my projected GPA to at least a 3.95! Woo hoo

Don't be a law student.

[Veyron]

To those who wonder why...I can't fully explain why in a mere 60,000 characters. It was always a dream of mine. I have an interest in either real estate or immigration law. Either way, I think this is still the best route. Maybe one day I may return to school again for my doctorate, but for now, I have a very specific dream. Thank you for all of your collective knowledge all the same.

BTW...I spoke with the councilor today. I found out that only one of my math classes will count toward my GPA. This raises my projected GPA to at least a 3.95! Woo hoo

You might want to be careful, sometimes classes count for LSAC that don't count for your college. Still, sounds like you are fine.

[chasgoose]

To those who wonder why...I can't fully explain why in a mere 60,000 characters. It was always a dream of mine. I have an interest in either real estate or immigration law. Either way, I think this is still the best route. Maybe one day I may return to school again for my doctorate, but for now, I have a very specific dream. Thank you for all of your collective knowledge all the same.

BTW...I spoke with the councilor today. I found out that only one of my math classes will count toward my GPA. This raises my projected GPA to at least a 3.95! Woo hoo

If you are going for these reasons you should absolutely go to U of A/ASU. With your numbers and in-state residency, you will probably get a lot of $$$ from them to subsidize the cost of your education. Going to a T-14 with no scholly only makes sense if you are gunning for a BigLaw job (which will be difficult for someone your age) or willing to work in PI long enough for LRAP to clear your loans (and even that is not an easy road). Even with BigLaw you will have to stay in that field for quite some time in order to pay off your loans. Don't listen to the status obsessed people on these boards, since they are going to law school almost solely for career reasons (however vague and inchoate those career reasons may be) it makes sense for them to go to the best school they can get into within reason. Even at a T14, getting a job that could allow you to pay back your loans is going to be difficult at your age (and even if you do its going to take another 10-15 years to pay those loans back at a minimum). If you are going purely for the benefit of having a legal education ASU/UA will give you pretty much as good of an education as any T-14 school (considering the financial differences, the educational quality difference is minimal) for a lot less money.

[nygrrrl]

It has been great for my kids to see me in law school for the past 3 years (I have a 10, 8 and 4 year old). It is also great for them to see that it is never too late to pursue your dreams. I think you should get that LSAT as high as possible and go to a school for free. Above posters are right that a big firm job will be difficult for you (I am 38 now and though I did get a job like that, it was really tough), but I found that smaller firms loved me. So if you keep your grades up, I think and keep your debt low, I think that you will be able to find something satifying. Another plus that I have cherished is that though law school is a "full time job" (I think how tough it is is a bit overblown), it is fairly flexible. I drove my kids to school and ate dinner with the family at least 95% of the time.

This. I'm a non-trad (older) student with a family, currently a 2L in a 4 year PT program. I didn't want/expect to get a big firm gig after school and I'm still kind of resisting the temptation (my kids are little and I don't want to miss the time with them that biglaw would demand). I haven't had to deal with the question yet as I won't go through OCI until next year but I will say that I landed an internship with a small firm last summer, no problem; it certainly seems there are places where WE and age will be appreciated. I agree with the posters who are telling you to keep those things in mind: you really don't want to end up with a pile of debt and no good way to pay it back. And yeah, though it's been tough at moments, this has been a great experience to go through with my kids. We've talked a lot about why mommy is doing this and they see their mom working hard at a goal, every day. I'm happy to answer any other questions you might have about doing this whole Second Career thing, just shoot me a PM. Best of luck!

[run26.2]

It has been great for my kids to see me in law school for the past 3 years (I have a 10, 8 and 4 year old). It is also great for them to see that it is never too late to pursue your dreams. I think you should get that LSAT as high as possible and go to a school for free. Above posters are right that a big firm job will be difficult for you (I am 38 now and though I did get a job like that, it was really tough), but I found that smaller firms loved me. So if you keep your grades up, I think and keep your debt low, I think that you will be able to find something satifying. Another plus that I have cherished is that though law school is a "full time job" (I think how tough it is is a bit overblown), it is fairly flexible. I drove my kids to school and ate dinner with the family at least 95% of the time.

OP - Since you don't seem to be as caught up in the prestige game as many people on TLS and in LS in general, and given your interests, it would be cool if you did immigration law. You could go to one of the aforementioned schools on the cheap, get a good education, and not have to worry about large loan payments when you graduate. Arizona is kind of the center of the action on this.

I read an an article in the Times which indicated that in 1/3 of cases, immigrants received ineffective assistance of counsel. My own clinical experience in school has also this borne out.

Here's the link: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/19/nyreg ... cases.html

Good luck! The law needs more people willing to do stuff like this.

KMaine - What did you do before LS? I have read some of your posts on here but I didn't realize you were out for so long. Are you leveraging your past experiences? Feel free to PM.

[Mr. Pancakes]

It has been great for my kids to see me in law school for the past 3 years (I have a 10, 8 and 4 year old). It is also great for them to see that it is never too late to pursue your dreams. I think you should get that LSAT as high as possible and go to a school for free. Above posters are right that a big firm job will be difficult for you (I am 38 now and though I did get a job like that, it was really tough), but I found that smaller firms loved me. So if you keep your grades up, I think and keep your debt low, I think that you will be able to find something satifying. Another plus that I have cherished is that though law school is a "full time job" (I think how tough it is is a bit overblown), it is fairly flexible. I drove my kids to school and ate dinner with the family at least 95% of the time.

OP - Since you don't seem to be as caught up in the prestige game as many people on TLS and in LS in general, and given your interests, it would be cool if you did immigration law. You could go to one of the aforementioned schools on the cheap, get a good education, and not have to worry about large loan payments when you graduate. Arizona is kind of the center of the action on this.

I read an an article in the Times which indicated that in 1/3 of cases, immigrants received ineffective assistance of counsel. My own clinical experience in school has also this borne out.

Here's the link: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/19/nyreg ... cases.html

Good luck! The law needs more people willing to do stuff like this.

KMaine - What did you do before LS? I have read some of your posts on here but I didn't realize you were out for so long. Are you leveraging your past experiences? Feel free to PM.

one reason why crim law and imm law can suck; criminals and immigrants aren't always able to pay hefty legal fees.

[Grizz]

one reason why crim law and imm law can suck; criminals and immigrants aren't always able to pay hefty legal fees.

That's not just one reason, that's the main reason. Or, they say they will pay, and then they don't. Also, many don't speak English.

[Mr. Pancakes]

one reason why crim law and imm law can suck; criminals and immigrants aren't always able to pay hefty legal fees.

That's not just one reason, that's the main reason. Or, they say they will pay, and then they don't. Also, many don't speak English.

my father USE to do crim law. This is how I got my first truck when I was 15. Someone couldn't pay their bills and they left a beat up 88' ford ranger in his office parking lot as payment. True Story. I hated driving that POS.

[Grizz]

one reason why crim law and imm law can suck; criminals and immigrants aren't always able to pay hefty legal fees.

That's not just one reason, that's the main reason. Or, they say they will pay, and then they don't. Also, many don't speak English.

my father USE to do crim law. This is how I got my first truck when I was 15. Someone couldn't pay their bills and they left a beat up 88' ford ranger in his office parking lot as payment. True Story. I hated driving that POS.

Not surprised. One of the attys I worked for got paid with an 80s E Class Mercedes convertible. Between doing work I'd take it to get fixed.