Extreme Downward Trend- URM

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GetOffMe
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Extreme Downward Trend- URM

Postby GetOffMe » Thu Dec 08, 2011 10:22 pm

I had a 3.91 at community college and then I got a 2.5 when I transferred to a top 25 university and now my LSDAS is at a 3.3.
I'm a Mexican male. Where can I go in T14 with a decent LSAT score (165+ maybe?)

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soitgoes9
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Re: Extreme Downward Trend- URM

Postby soitgoes9 » Fri Dec 09, 2011 6:07 pm

Why? Were you working full time? Have family or medical problems? If not you will have to kill the LSAT.

MrAnon
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Re: Extreme Downward Trend- URM

Postby MrAnon » Fri Dec 09, 2011 6:13 pm

"Trends" don't matter for admissions very much. Everyone seems to think schools really care about them. The school just cares about admitted more URMs, so you'll get in somewhere, but you should really really really think hard about law school if your grades in college fell that low. The chances you will do will in law school are slim and the URM thing isn't helpful in the employment arena unless you are coming out of Harvard Yale or Stanford. I can't stress any of this enough. A URM with average grades from say, Cornell, is nothing special to an employer.

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soitgoes9
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Re: Extreme Downward Trend- URM

Postby soitgoes9 » Fri Dec 09, 2011 6:21 pm

All good points.

Still, the OP will need to do very well on the lsat 166+ to have a strong shot at T14.

GetOffMe
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Re: Extreme Downward Trend- URM

Postby GetOffMe » Sat Dec 10, 2011 6:25 am

MrAnon wrote:"Trends" don't matter for admissions very much. Everyone seems to think schools really care about them. The school just cares about admitted more URMs, so you'll get in somewhere, but you should really really really think hard about law school if your grades in college fell that low. The chances you will do will in law school are slim and the URM thing isn't helpful in the employment arena unless you are coming out of Harvard Yale or Stanford. I can't stress any of this enough. A URM with average grades from say, Cornell, is nothing special to an employer.


But if I do get into Cornell, what's to stop me from making bank?

lats19nys
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Re: Extreme Downward Trend- URM

Postby lats19nys » Sat Dec 10, 2011 10:19 am

GetOffMe wrote:
MrAnon wrote:"Trends" don't matter for admissions very much. Everyone seems to think schools really care about them. The school just cares about admitted more URMs, so you'll get in somewhere, but you should really really really think hard about law school if your grades in college fell that low. The chances you will do will in law school are slim and the URM thing isn't helpful in the employment arena unless you are coming out of Harvard Yale or Stanford. I can't stress any of this enough. A URM with average grades from say, Cornell, is nothing special to an employer.


But if I do get into Cornell, what's to stop me from making bank?


That you clearly have shown you don't have the ability to do well in a decent academic setting. I mean getting Cs/Bs in an undergrad doesn't bode well for law school. I mean....great you did well in CCS... If you are serious about your studies, you're going to have to change everything about your study habits.

Honestly, unless you have a good reason, most of those schools are going to look at you as almost a failed experiment. Your undergrad took a chance on you, coming from a community college, and you did not respond well. I mean, that's what most people would think given the circumstances you described.

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bk1
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Re: Extreme Downward Trend- URM

Postby bk1 » Sat Dec 10, 2011 11:34 am

GetOffMe wrote:But if I do get into Cornell, what's to stop me from making bank?


The fact that the legal industry is shit and that only about half of the T14 get jobs making "bank." Will a T14 give you a good shot at a job that pays a lot? Undoubtedly. But there is still a very large chance that you won't get a job in biglaw.

lats19nys wrote:Honestly, unless you have a good reason, most of those schools are going to look at you as almost a failed experiment. Your undergrad took a chance on you, coming from a community college, and you did not respond well. I mean, that's what most people would think given the circumstances you described.


False. Adcomms are going to care about OP's overall GPA, LSAT, and URM status. If he manages a decent LSAT they really won't care about the downward trend.

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Grizz
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Re: Extreme Downward Trend- URM

Postby Grizz » Sat Dec 10, 2011 11:58 am

GetOffMe wrote:I had a 3.91 at community college and then I got a 2.5 when I transferred to a top 25 university and now my LSDAS is at a 3.3.
I'm a Mexican male. Where can I go in T14 with a decent LSAT score (165+ maybe?)

Come back with an LSAT

Enjoy lawschoolnumbers.com

No one cares ab downward trend

GetOffMe
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Re: Extreme Downward Trend- URM

Postby GetOffMe » Tue Dec 13, 2011 7:07 pm

I'm not really even looking for biglaw.


Chances for Penn or Northwestern?

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rinkrat19
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Re: Extreme Downward Trend- URM

Postby rinkrat19 » Tue Dec 13, 2011 7:16 pm

GetOffMe wrote:I'm not really even looking for biglaw.


Chances for Penn or Northwestern?
Without an LSAT score, zero chance at both.

(Also almost zero chance at Northwestern, even with the LSAT, unless you get post-grad work experience.)

GetOffMe
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Re: Extreme Downward Trend- URM

Postby GetOffMe » Tue Dec 13, 2011 7:19 pm

rinkrat19 wrote:
GetOffMe wrote:I'm not really even looking for biglaw.


Chances for Penn or Northwestern?
Without an LSAT score, zero chance at both.

(Also almost zero chance at Northwestern, even with the LSAT, unless you get post-grad work experience.)



For real? Oh this is such bull. My school has heavy grade deflation to the point where professors are nit-picky and won't let you get high A's on exams and not to mention I got screwed over by my professors in a lot of classes.

What about Cornell? I'll take any T14 at this point.

005618502
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Re: Extreme Downward Trend- URM

Postby 005618502 » Tue Dec 13, 2011 7:27 pm

GetOffMe wrote:
rinkrat19 wrote:
GetOffMe wrote:I'm not really even looking for biglaw.


Chances for Penn or Northwestern?
Without an LSAT score, zero chance at both.

(Also almost zero chance at Northwestern, even with the LSAT, unless you get post-grad work experience.)



For real? Oh this is such bull. My school has heavy grade deflation to the point where professors are nit-picky and won't let you get high A's on exams and not to mention I got screwed over by my professors in a lot of classes.

What about Cornell? I'll take any T14 at this point.


Wow, this is either 1.) a Terrible flame that everyone seems to be falling for. or 2.) someone with an intelligence level that should not consider law school.
I am going to guess the former and ask people to stop falling for this "But if I go to Cornell ill make bankkkkkkk oh and I got a 2.5 once I got to a real university."

GetOffMe
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Re: Extreme Downward Trend- URM

Postby GetOffMe » Tue Dec 13, 2011 7:33 pm

Dude don't insult my intelligence. I've got a serious temper and I'm not about that right now. All I know is that I came to this school for a strong UG degree just in case and now it might be ruining my life. Sick of seeing professors giving better grades to ditzy sorority girls. I'm just trying to have fun, drinking and living it up. I'm really not in the mood to get lectured about intelligence.

Law School Predictor is telling me I'll be a strong consider for Penn with a 172. Looks like I'm just gonna have to do it the hard way since my professors want to try to ruin me.
Last edited by GetOffMe on Tue Dec 13, 2011 7:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Guchster
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Re: Extreme Downward Trend- URM

Postby Guchster » Tue Dec 13, 2011 7:33 pm

Let me tell you this from one URM to another.

Unless you have a 3.9 + 170, you cannot predict where you'll get in and where you won't.

I have a URM Mexican Male friend that had 3.60/156 that got rejected from every T14 except for Stanford, and another that had a 3.5/165 that got into EVERY T14 and chose to go to Yale. I can tell you of people of ALL ranges of number that don't make any sense when put in a data pool. Without concrete data the applicant pool's diversity (and the diversity of factors WITHIN a racial group that need to be balance), it's hard to predict where you'll land.

Once you get to the T14s (and without comparable grades), it's hard to predict where you'll land (with affirmative action) because each T14 is looking to fill its class with different things that vary from socio-economic/racial make-up, geographic diversity, majors, types of undergrad (for instance, a lower-ranked undergrad could actually be an advantage (read: for the sake of balance) if they've filled spots with top-ranked undergrads, or perhaps the school is willing to tolerate a lower LSAT because other LSAT scores admitted are super high this year at the school)

Seriously, it all comes down to adcom balance; you'll be used to make a well-rounded class and while people on here will tell you you're an auto-reject or auto-admit, the truth is these people don't understand a class make-up and what diversity concerns a law school is facing (and trying to counter-balance based on previous classes) because they're not on the adcom and reading applications.

Take the LSAT; blanket the T14 to maximize a chance of success. Ask for fee waivers, and if you don't get them be prepared to make a decision about where you want to hedge your bets by sending off aps (but there's not really a method to this madness). My advice: with a 3.2 though, even if HYS is loving you're profile, it'll be hard for them to accept, so I'd apply to CCN and down if you don't have any waivers (I have an AA friend that got into CCN with a 3.1).

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rinkrat19
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Re: Extreme Downward Trend- URM

Postby rinkrat19 » Tue Dec 13, 2011 7:35 pm

GetOffMe wrote:I'm just trying to have fun, drinking and living it up.
I don't think it's the professors killing your grades.

GetOffMe
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Re: Extreme Downward Trend- URM

Postby GetOffMe » Tue Dec 13, 2011 7:36 pm

Thanks, Guchster. Damn, dude didn't really consider all that. I'm not trying to get into HYS or anything like that. Just want to go where I can have the most fun and still get a decent job.

brandowes
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Re: Extreme Downward Trend- URM

Postby brandowes » Tue Dec 13, 2011 8:04 pm

GetOffMe wrote:I had a 3.91 at community college and then I got a 2.5 when I transferred to a top 25 university and now my LSDAS is at a 3.3.
I'm a Mexican male. Where can I go in T14 with a decent LSAT score (165+ maybe?)



Strong Addendum
166+ on the LSAT
Shoot for splitter schools

GetOffMe
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Re: Extreme Downward Trend- URM

Postby GetOffMe » Tue Dec 13, 2011 8:08 pm

brandowes wrote:
GetOffMe wrote:I had a 3.91 at community college and then I got a 2.5 when I transferred to a top 25 university and now my LSDAS is at a 3.3.
I'm a Mexican male. Where can I go in T14 with a decent LSAT score (165+ maybe?)



Strong Addendum
166+ on the LSAT
Shoot for splitter schools


What do I put on the addendum? And what are some splitter schools?

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bk1
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Re: Extreme Downward Trend- URM

Postby bk1 » Tue Dec 13, 2011 8:10 pm

Guchster wrote:Let me tell you this from one URM to another.

Unless you have a 3.9 + 170, you cannot predict where you'll get in and where you won't.

I have a URM Mexican Male friend that had 3.60/156 that got rejected from every T14 except for Stanford, and another that had a 3.5/165 that got into EVERY T14 and chose to go to Yale. I can tell you of people of ALL ranges of number that don't make any sense when put in a data pool. Without concrete data the applicant pool's diversity (and the diversity of factors WITHIN a racial group that need to be balance), it's hard to predict where you'll land.

Once you get to the T14s (and without comparable grades), it's hard to predict where you'll land (with affirmative action) because each T14 is looking to fill its class with different things that vary from socio-economic/racial make-up, geographic diversity, majors, types of undergrad (for instance, a lower-ranked undergrad could actually be an advantage (read: for the sake of balance) if they've filled spots with top-ranked undergrads, or perhaps the school is willing to tolerate a lower LSAT because other LSAT scores admitted are super high this year at the school)

Seriously, it all comes down to adcom balance; you'll be used to make a well-rounded class and while people on here will tell you you're an auto-reject or auto-admit, the truth is these people don't understand a class make-up and what diversity concerns a law school is facing (and trying to counter-balance based on previous classes) because they're not on the adcom and reading applications.

Take the LSAT; blanket the T14 to maximize a chance of success. Ask for fee waivers, and if you don't get them be prepared to make a decision about where you want to hedge your bets by sending off aps (but there's not really a method to this madness). My advice: with a 3.2 though, even if HYS is loving you're profile, it'll be hard for them to accept, so I'd apply to CCN and down if you don't have any waivers (I have an AA friend that got into CCN with a 3.1).


As a URM, this is ridiculous. First, unless your comparison is a typo, comparing a 156 who got in to no T14's and a 165 who got in to all of them does not prove that URM cycles are impossible to predict. Second, while it may be difficult to predict with accuracy URM applications it is still fairly easy to have a general gist of what range that person can get into. And of course URM's should generally apply to more reaches than non-URM's, but that doesn't mean that it is that difficult to tell a 3.5/165/URM what range of schools they should be applying to.

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bk1
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Re: Extreme Downward Trend- URM

Postby bk1 » Tue Dec 13, 2011 8:11 pm

GetOffMe wrote:I've got a serious temper.


This is quite the veiled threat to be making over the internet.

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Yukos
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Re: Extreme Downward Trend- URM

Postby Yukos » Tue Dec 13, 2011 9:18 pm

bk1 I think you missed the part where the 156 guy got rejected from all T14s EXCEPT Stanford, which, if true, definitely speaks to the unpredictability of URM cycles.

As for everyone else:

not to mention I got screwed over by my professors in a lot of classes.


But if I do get into Cornell, what's to stop me from making bank?


I've got a serious temper and I'm not about that right now.


Looks like I'm just gonna have to do it the hard way since my professors want to try to ruin me.


And the deal breaker:
Sick of seeing professors giving better grades to ditzy sorority girls. I'm just trying to have fun, drinking and living it up.


--ImageRemoved--

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bk1
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Re: Extreme Downward Trend- URM

Postby bk1 » Tue Dec 13, 2011 9:41 pm

Yukos wrote:bk1 I think you missed the part where the 156 guy got rejected from all T14s EXCEPT Stanford, which, if true, definitely speaks to the unpredictability of URM cycles.


It's not surprising that schools like Yale or Stanford would take an outlier since they care more about softs. It also does not say that the person got in to Stanford which is important since many schools waitlist people who have almost 0 chance of getting in.

Also just because there is one person who bucks the trend does not mean that in general URM cycles are all that unpredictable. However, after reading over what that person said I actually agree for the most part even though I disagree with the language. Basically that person was saying that within the T14 it is hard to tell exactly where a URM will get in or get money (which is true). The problem is that the statement about unpredictability was so blanket that it was misleading.

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Yukos
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Re: Extreme Downward Trend- URM

Postby Yukos » Tue Dec 13, 2011 9:48 pm

bk1 wrote:
Yukos wrote:bk1 I think you missed the part where the 156 guy got rejected from all T14s EXCEPT Stanford, which, if true, definitely speaks to the unpredictability of URM cycles.


It's not surprising that schools like Yale or Stanford would take an outlier since they care more about softs. It also does not say that the person got in to Stanford which is important since many schools waitlist people who have almost 0 chance of getting in.


Touche, he never said he was accepted. Well played, sir.

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crumpetsandtea
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Re: Extreme Downward Trend- URM

Postby crumpetsandtea » Tue Dec 13, 2011 9:56 pm

GetOffMe wrote:Thanks, Guchster. Damn, dude didn't really consider all that. I'm not trying to get into HYS or anything like that. Just want to go where I can have the most fun and still get a decent job.

lolwat? :roll: FWIW, law school is probably not the best place to go if you just want to 'have fun and still get a decent job.' Do some research on lawschooltransparency.com and seriously think about if you want to spend the time and energy and MONEY necessary for a legal degree, and then come back when you're ready.

If you REALLY want to practice law (note that I said practice law, not 'have fun and still get a decent job') then here's what I would recommend:
- Do not take the LSAT until you are PT-ing in the upper 160s or in the 170s with a very high consistency. Check out the LSAT forum for advice there, and the LSAT blog has good weekly schedules as well. If you're not willing to put in the hard work to get a good LSAT, then seriously re-think whether or not you're ready for law school.
- Get some work experience before applying. This will serve to both up your admissions chances (at places like Northwestern) as well as distance you from your GPA.
- If you are still in UG, MAKE SURE to work your ASS off to get a higher GPA. Even a 3.4 or 3.5 could do wonders when put together with your URM status and a upper-160/17X LSAT score.
- You say you're not shooting for HYS, but TBH those are probably the only schools that you could possibly go to that would leave you relatively job-secure without you needing to bust your balls to get top grades.

Lastly: TAKE THE LSAT and then come back and ask this. This is pointless without a recent LSAT score.

005618502
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Re: Extreme Downward Trend- URM

Postby 005618502 » Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:05 pm

Yukos wrote:bk1 I think you missed the part where the 156 guy got rejected from all T14s EXCEPT Stanford, which, if true, definitely speaks to the unpredictability of URM cycles.

As for everyone else:

not to mention I got screwed over by my professors in a lot of classes.


But if I do get into Cornell, what's to stop me from making bank?


I've got a serious temper and I'm not about that right now.


Looks like I'm just gonna have to do it the hard way since my professors want to try to ruin me.


And the deal breaker:
Sick of seeing professors giving better grades to ditzy sorority girls. I'm just trying to have fun, drinking and living it up.


This thread has seriously made me lol




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