3.76/167 + 178

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bigdawg6
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3.76/167 + 178

Postby bigdawg6 » Tue Oct 25, 2011 11:05 am

Hey all,

Just got my October LSAT score and am trying to adjust my plans as I did much better than I anticipated. I am planning to apply this cycle and defer to work as a paralegal for a year. I will graduate from a top 10 undergraduate university in the spring. So far, my top choice for a law school is Harvard, but is this too much of a reach with a first LSAT score of 167? Does anyone know how schools will view this first score since I improved over ten points the second time around?

In addition, I am considering Georgetown, Michigan, and Duke. Any advice you all could provide on other schools I should apply to and what my chances are at the schools I listed would be greatly appreciated. I would also love to hear any perspective you could provide on how to approach the huge improvement in my LSAT score.

CanadianWolf
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Re: 3.76/167 + 178

Postby CanadianWolf » Tue Oct 25, 2011 11:09 am

In your situation, why not apply to all T-14 law schools that interest you ?

P.S. You should be admitted to Georgetown, Michigan & Duke.
Last edited by CanadianWolf on Tue Oct 25, 2011 11:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

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DoubleChecks
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Re: 3.76/167 + 178

Postby DoubleChecks » Tue Oct 25, 2011 11:11 am

bigdawg6 wrote:Hey all,

Just got my October LSAT score and am trying to adjust my plans as I did much better than I anticipated. I am planning to apply this cycle and defer to work as a paralegal for a year. I will graduate from a top 10 undergraduate university in the spring. So far, my top choice for a law school is Harvard, but is this too much of a reach with a first LSAT score of 167? Does anyone know how schools will view this first score since I improved over ten points the second time around?

In addition, I am considering Georgetown, Michigan, and Duke. Any advice you all could provide on other schools I should apply to and what my chances are at the schools I listed would be greatly appreciated. I would also love to hear any perspective you could provide on how to approach the huge improvement in my LSAT score.


tbh, your GPA probably hurts you more for HLS than your 167 LSAT. That being said, the 167 will hurt w/ HLS about as much as they want a reason to reject you, imo. In other words, if they want a reason to like you after reviewing the rest of your app, it wont matter. If they are just looking for a reason to ding you after reviewing the rest of your app, well there it is. Slight negative soft, but not crippling by any means. If you can get your GPA higher, your chances would be much better. Saw plenty of 3.75ish/176+ waitlisted at HLS last cycle.

Certainly even now you have a decent shot at HLS and should apply. I assume in at a CCN as well (not sure on the $$ though). Outside of the ~T6, no one will really care that you took your LSAT twice.

bigdawg6
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Re: 3.76/167 + 178

Postby bigdawg6 » Tue Oct 25, 2011 11:46 am

Thanks guys, I appreciate it. I'm hoping my GPA doesn't hurt me too bad since it is coming from a top 10 school, but I don't know.

Curious1
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Re: 3.76/167 + 178

Postby Curious1 » Tue Oct 25, 2011 11:48 am

bigdawg6 wrote:Thanks guys, I appreciate it. I'm hoping my GPA doesn't hurt me too bad since it is coming from a top 10 school, but I don't know.


Hmm at humblebrag. General consensus is UGPA only matters (slightly) from HYS, but your numbers are good regardless--almost the same as mine. Should be about a coinflip. Good luck to us.

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pupshaw
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Re: 3.76/167 + 178

Postby pupshaw » Tue Oct 25, 2011 11:49 am

.
Last edited by pupshaw on Wed Nov 09, 2011 12:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

CanadianWolf
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Re: 3.76/167 + 178

Postby CanadianWolf » Tue Oct 25, 2011 11:53 am

If undergraduate institution is considered when evaluating one's UGPA, then Cal-Tech, Johns Hopkins, Chicago & MIT in addition to Princeton would be given some consideration.

bigdawg6
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Re: 3.76/167 + 178

Postby bigdawg6 » Tue Oct 25, 2011 11:56 am

That was not meant to be bragging at all. Thanks for the help guys and good luck to you all.

Curious1
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Re: 3.76/167 + 178

Postby Curious1 » Tue Oct 25, 2011 11:57 am

CanadianWolf wrote:If undergraduate institution is considered when evaluating one's UGPA, then Cal-Tech, Johns Hopkins, Chicago & MIT in addition to Princeton would be given some consideration.


If things worked the way they should, none of us would be going to law school. Life isn't fair. That said, I can't see adcomms (from HYS, not TTT where actually only numbers matter) NOT looking at a CalTech kid and going: hmm...good for him, going to a school where you actually have to work. But JHU and Chicago...maybe not so much.

Maybe revise that to: UGPA looks slightly better if from HYPSMC. Slightly worse if from online college.

Let's not hijack this thread...I'm VERY interested in OP's fate. With any luck both of us (all 3 of us, including the post above yours) can go to ASW this Spring. Keep the hope alive!

CanadianWolf
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Re: 3.76/167 + 178

Postby CanadianWolf » Tue Oct 25, 2011 11:59 am

Harvard UGPA would not be taken into account due to grade inflation that has been widely criticized over the past several years. JHU & Chicago would receive as much consideration as Princeton.

Curious1
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Re: 3.76/167 + 178

Postby Curious1 » Tue Oct 25, 2011 12:04 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:Harvard UGPA would not be taken into account due to grade inflation that has been widely criticized over the past several years. JHU & Chicago would receive as much consideration as Princeton.


This is really, really, really, not true. You have no idea how much power lay prestige has. Also grade inflation isn't really a thing. This has been discussed extensively over thousands of posts so I won't do it here, but basic argument: HYPS kids are objectively smarter and therefore deserve good grades, driving up the GPA average.

JHU and Chicago do have deflated grades but they're not ranked high enough/have enough lay prestige to matter. I'm assuming you go to one of the 2? I think those are great schools but I can't see an adcomm being impressed enough to look over a sub-par GPA.

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soj
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Re: 3.76/167 + 178

Postby soj » Tue Oct 25, 2011 12:58 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:Harvard UGPA would not be taken into account due to grade inflation that has been widely criticized over the past several years.

No. You seem to be confusing what is true and what ought to be true.

CanadianWolf
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Re: 3.76/167 + 178

Postby CanadianWolf » Tue Oct 25, 2011 1:05 pm

No, you seem to be misinformed.

CanadianWolf
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Re: 3.76/167 + 178

Postby CanadianWolf » Tue Oct 25, 2011 1:08 pm

Curious1: No, adcomms are very much in tune with grading policies at elite undergraduate universities. Chicago, JHU & Princeton are well respected.

CanadianWolf
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Re: 3.76/167 + 178

Postby CanadianWolf » Tue Oct 25, 2011 1:14 pm

Anna Ivey's book The Ivey guide To Law School Admissions devotes attention to this point, as do other books. Page 34 of Anna Ivey's book notes that: "All the Ivy League schools, as well as Stanford & Yeshiva, are notorious among law school admissions officers for their grade inflation....Schools that are known ...for their tough grading curves are Reed, Harvey Mudd, Swartmore, Chicago, Johns Hopkins, Caltech, Georgia Tech, and the military academies.(To give you some idea, not a single person in Chicago's class graduated with a 4.0 average.)"

CanadianWolf
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Re: 3.76/167 + 178

Postby CanadianWolf » Tue Oct 25, 2011 1:22 pm

Anna Ivey further addresses how Harvard, Stanford & Princeton are trying to fight grade inflation at their respective schools, but are losing the battles.

CanadianWolf
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Re: 3.76/167 + 178

Postby CanadianWolf » Tue Oct 25, 2011 1:28 pm

Additionally, the LSAC tracks grading practices for law school admissions purposes--the GPA College Mean (GCM). This is used to address grade inflation at undergraduate schools as well as to compare the individual applicant with other law school applicants from his/her undergraduate school.

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soj
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Re: 3.76/167 + 178

Postby soj » Tue Oct 25, 2011 1:33 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:Curious1: No, adcomms are very much in tune with grading policies at elite undergraduate universities. Chicago, JHU & Princeton are well respected.

No one said adcoms aren't aware of grade inflation at some schools and grade deflation at others. Top law schools still accept HYS students in large numbers, though, with many of those students overperforming their inflated numbers. HYS UGs who have access to data from their UG Career Offices have attested to this. True, these students might have other soft factors that make them strong candidates, but I don't see Princeton students doing much better than HY students with the same numbers, for example.

CanadianWolf wrote:Anna Ivey's book The Ivey guide To Law School Admissions devotes attention to this point, as do other books. Page 34 of Anna Ivey's book notes that: "All the Ivy League schools, as well as Stanford & Yeshiva, are notorious among law school admissions officers for their grade inflation....Schools that are known ...for their tough grading curves are Reed, Harvey Mudd, Swartmore, Chicago, Johns Hopkins, Caltech, Georgia Tech, and the military academies.(To give you some idea, not a single person in Chicago's class graduated with a 4.0 average.)"

Again, no one's saying adcoms are unaware.

Curious1
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Re: 3.76/167 + 178

Postby Curious1 » Tue Oct 25, 2011 1:38 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:Anna Ivey's book The Ivey guide To Law School Admissions devotes attention to this point, as do other books. Page 34 of Anna Ivey's book notes that: "All the Ivy League schools, as well as Stanford & Yeshiva, are notorious among law school admissions officers for their grade inflation....Schools that are known ...for their tough grading curves are Reed, Harvey Mudd, Swartmore, Chicago, Johns Hopkins, Caltech, Georgia Tech, and the military academies.(To give you some idea, not a single person in Chicago's class graduated with a 4.0 average.)"


Clearly she's 100% right about every single adcomm in the country and not just trying to sell books/services.

Curious1
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Re: 3.76/167 + 178

Postby Curious1 » Tue Oct 25, 2011 1:40 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:Additionally, the LSAC tracks grading practices for law school admissions purposes--the GPA College Mean (GCM). This is used to address grade inflation at undergraduate schools as well as to compare the individual applicant with other law school applicants from his/her undergraduate school.


Relying on the mean itself is not a good way to gauge the strength of a candidate. Keep in mind that a person with a mean GPA at HYPS will likely be far above the mean at lower-ranked schools.

CanadianWolf
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Re: 3.76/167 + 178

Postby CanadianWolf » Tue Oct 25, 2011 1:43 pm

You can live in your dream world all you want, but I'll go with Anna Ivey's experience, Joyce Putnam Curll's experience, Susan Estrich's guide & the LSAC over a couple of inexperienced OLs anyday.

Curious1
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Re: 3.76/167 + 178

Postby Curious1 » Tue Oct 25, 2011 1:45 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:You can live in your dream world all you want, but I'll go with Anna Ivey's experience, Joyce Putnam Curll experience, Susan Estrich's guide & the LSAC over a couple of inexperienced OLs anyday.


So I'm guessing you go to JHU? Anyway it doesn't matter to us what's viewed as what. Everything is set in stone already and (my) apps are in. Just don't give shoddy advice to other 0Ls based on someone's book and your personal views as to what ought to be the case.

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soj
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Re: 3.76/167 + 178

Postby soj » Tue Oct 25, 2011 1:47 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:You can live in your dream world all you want, but I'll go with Anna Ivey's experience, Joyce Putnam Curll's experience, Susan Estrich's guide & the LSAC over a couple of inexperienced OLs anyday.

LOL @ you thinking this is supposed to make Curious1 and my argument worse, even though it's based on the real experiences of many applicants rather than authors with ulterior motives.

CanadianWolf
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Re: 3.76/167 + 178

Postby CanadianWolf » Tue Oct 25, 2011 1:49 pm

Yes, since they have much more actual experience and their experience is not based on anonymous internet posting anecdotes. Joyce Putnam Curll was the longtime (16 years) Admissions Dean at NYU before serving 18 years as Harvard's Dean of Admissions. Anna Ivey was Dean of Admissions at Chicago Law.

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soj
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Re: 3.76/167 + 178

Postby soj » Tue Oct 25, 2011 1:53 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:Yes, since they have much more actual experience and their experience is not based on anonymous internet posting anecdotes. Joyce Putnam Curll was the longtime (16 years) Admissions Dean at NYU before serving 18 years as Harvard's Dean of Admissions. Anna Ivey was Dean of Admissions at Chicago Law.

soj wrote:LOL @ you thinking this is supposed to make Curious1 and my argument worse, even though it's based on the real experiences of many applicants rather than authors with ulterior motives.




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