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I took the LSAT back in June and received a 171, and I think that's my ceiling. I was basically averaging between 170-173 on practice tests, so my score feels like a best-case scenario. My GPA from an undergrad consistently ranked just below HYP was a 4.0. The bad news for me is that my softs are on the weak side. I just have some post-grad work/volunteer experience, but not much else (although I can count on very strong LORs).

What are my chances within the T-14? The legal job market is so horrible right now (and looks to stay that way), I don't see the value in attending school anywhere outside the T-14. That said, I'm not even thinking about shooting an app to HYS--just feels like a waste of money for me. My two ideal schools are NYU/Columbia. I know that I'm basically on the weak end of the applicant pool for both places (due to my LSAT), but would like to know, would getting in an ED app to either school possibly improve my chances?

Other schools I am interested in include Chicago, Penn, UVA, and Cornell. What are my chances for admission (and maybe a little $) at the last three?

vincentgambini wrote:I took the LSAT back in June and received a 171, and I think that's my ceiling. I was basically averaging between 170-173 on practice tests, so my score feels like a best-case scenario. My GPA from an undergrad consistently ranked just below HYP was a 4.0. The bad news for me is that my softs are on the weak side. I just have some post-grad work/volunteer experience, but not much else (although I can count on very strong LORs).

What are my chances within the T-14? The legal job market is so horrible right now (and looks to stay that way), I don't see the value in attending school anywhere outside the T-14. That said, I'm not even thinking about shooting an app to HYS--just feels like a waste of money for me. My two ideal schools are NYU/Columbia. I know that I'm basically on the weak end of the applicant pool for both places (due to my LSAT), but would like to know, would getting in an ED app to either school possibly improve my chances?

Other schools I am interested in include Chicago, Penn, UVA, and Cornell? What are my chances for admission (and maybe a little $) at the last three?

Decent scholly at CCN and down. Full ride chances at MVP and lower

HYS are definitely worth an app. One of them may bite . . . try and get something really Stanford-specific for your application (targeted rec, etc.).

good luck!

JamMasterJ wrote:

vincentgambini wrote:I took the LSAT back in June and received a 171, and I think that's my ceiling. I was basically averaging between 170-173 on practice tests, so my score feels like a best-case scenario. My GPA from an undergrad consistently ranked just below HYP was a 4.0. The bad news for me is that my softs are on the weak side. I just have some post-grad work/volunteer experience, but not much else (although I can count on very strong LORs).

What are my chances within the T-14? The legal job market is so horrible right now (and looks to stay that way), I don't see the value in attending school anywhere outside the T-14. That said, I'm not even thinking about shooting an app to HYS--just feels like a waste of money for me. My two ideal schools are NYU/Columbia. I know that I'm basically on the weak end of the applicant pool for both places (due to my LSAT), but would like to know, would getting in an ED app to either school possibly improve my chances?

Other schools I am interested in include Chicago, Penn, UVA, and Cornell? What are my chances for admission (and maybe a little $) at the last three?

Decent scholly at CCN and down. Full ride chances at MVP and lower

I feel like NYU and Columbia (especially) would afford such good career opportunities in the future that ED might be the way to go, despite forfeiting money... Is this a sort of misguided notion? I just don't see how a 171 makes me a lock for either school, much less suggests I could wring some money out of them.

It's not necessarily the 171, but, rather, the combination of a 171 LSAT score with a 4.0 GPA that makes you likely to gain admission to one or both of NYU & Columbia.

I would not ED. Dont bind yourself when you will have great options otherwise.

CanadianWolf wrote:It's not necessarily the 171, but, rather, the combination of a 171 LSAT score with a 4.0 GPA that makes you likely to gain admission to one or both of NYU & Columbia.

So you wouldn't recommend ED just to make admission to 1 of the 2 more likely?

vincentgambini wrote:

CanadianWolf wrote:It's not necessarily the 171, but, rather, the combination of a 171 LSAT score with a 4.0 GPA that makes you likely to gain admission to one or both of NYU & Columbia.

So you wouldn't recommend ED just to make admission to 1 of the 2 more likely?

Don't ED.

Part of my logic is that the career opportunities are going to be so much more extensive coming out of a school like Columbia than they would be for the lower half of the T-14. Public Interest people get things like DOJ, whoever wants NYC big law gets it. It almost seems like paying sticker at Columbia (my family resides in NYC as well) would be better than a close to full ride at Cornell. I'm expecting this perspective to be a little contraversial ITE.

http://search.lawschoolnumbers.com/user ... Cycle=1011

Check out those profiles from last year for real life examples of people with 171 and 4.0. All got into Columbia, NYU, Chicago as far as I can see. Many got money too.

vincentgambini wrote:Part of my logic is that the career opportunities are going to be so much more extensive coming out of a school like Columbia than they would be for the lower half of the T-14. Public Interest people get things like DOJ, whoever wants NYC big law gets it. It almost seems like paying sticker at Columbia (my family resides in NYC as well) would be better than a close to full ride at Cornell.

True, but you're already very likely to get in. Why throw away potential money?

I don't think that you should ED with your numbers unless the only two law schools to which you are going to apply are Columbia & NYU. Your chances are quite high for your other choices of Virginia, Cornell & Penn. Consider an ED app to Northwestern if interested since all accepted ED get a 3 year full tuition scholarship.

vincentgambini wrote:Part of my logic is that the career opportunities are going to be so much more extensive coming out of a school like Columbia than they would be for the lower half of the T-14. Public Interest people get things like DOJ, whoever wants NYC big law gets it. It almost seems like paying sticker at Columbia (my family resides in NYC as well) would be better than a close to full ride at Cornell. I'm expecting this perspective to be a little contraversial ITE.

There's no reason to pay sticker at Columbia when you're likely to get a half ride or more at MVPDN (especially P, which feeds directly into NYC). The difference in career placement, while certainly existent, does not justify an extra $75,000.

HeavenWood wrote:

vincentgambini wrote:Part of my logic is that the career opportunities are going to be so much more extensive coming out of a school like Columbia than they would be for the lower half of the T-14. Public Interest people get things like DOJ, whoever wants NYC big law gets it. It almost seems like paying sticker at Columbia (my family resides in NYC as well) would be better than a close to full ride at Cornell. I'm expecting this perspective to be a little contraversial ITE.

There's no reason to pay sticker at Columbia when you're likely to get a half ride or more at MVPDN (especially P, which feeds directly into NYC). The difference in career placement, while certainly existent, does not justify an extra $75,000.

Didn't sound like money was a particularly important issue to op, and anyway I would gladly pay 75k for Columbia over penn. the career difference there is pretty big...new thread time: but seriously...why Columbia?

Curious1 wrote:

HeavenWood wrote:

vincentgambini wrote:Part of my logic is that the career opportunities are going to be so much more extensive coming out of a school like Columbia than they would be for the lower half of the T-14. Public Interest people get things like DOJ, whoever wants NYC big law gets it. It almost seems like paying sticker at Columbia (my family resides in NYC as well) would be better than a close to full ride at Cornell. I'm expecting this perspective to be a little contraversial ITE.

There's no reason to pay sticker at Columbia when you're likely to get a half ride or more at MVPDN (especially P, which feeds directly into NYC). The difference in career placement, while certainly existent, does not justify an extra $75,000.

Didn't sound like money was a particularly important issue to op, and anyway I would gladly pay 75k for Columbia over penn. the career difference there is pretty big...new thread time: but seriously...why Columbia?

Money is important (I'm not independently wealthy) but I feel like the earning/career potential coming out of a school like Columbia would be so vast as to minimize 75k in the long run. Still, I don't know, I could be off base with this. Is the gap between a school like Columbia and UPenn really as pronounced as I think it is?

vincentgambini wrote:

Curious1 wrote:

HeavenWood wrote:

vincentgambini wrote:Part of my logic is that the career opportunities are going to be so much more extensive coming out of a school like Columbia than they would be for the lower half of the T-14. Public Interest people get things like DOJ, whoever wants NYC big law gets it. It almost seems like paying sticker at Columbia (my family resides in NYC as well) would be better than a close to full ride at Cornell. I'm expecting this perspective to be a little contraversial ITE.

There's no reason to pay sticker at Columbia when you're likely to get a half ride or more at MVPDN (especially P, which feeds directly into NYC). The difference in career placement, while certainly existent, does not justify an extra $75,000.

Didn't sound like money was a particularly important issue to op, and anyway I would gladly pay 75k for Columbia over penn. the career difference there is pretty big...new thread time: but seriously...why Columbia?

Money is important (I'm not independently wealthy) but I feel like the earning/career potential coming out of a school like Columbia would be so vast as to minimize 75k in the long run. Still, I don't know, I could be off base with this. Is the gap between a school like Columbia and UPenn really as pronounced as I think it is?

I think there's a drop after hys, a drop after cc(n), and a huge drop after T14. So def go to Columbia but don't Ed.

Curious1 wrote:

HeavenWood wrote:

vincentgambini wrote:Part of my logic is that the career opportunities are going to be so much more extensive coming out of a school like Columbia than they would be for the lower half of the T-14. Public Interest people get things like DOJ, whoever wants NYC big law gets it. It almost seems like paying sticker at Columbia (my family resides in NYC as well) would be better than a close to full ride at Cornell. I'm expecting this perspective to be a little contraversial ITE.

There's no reason to pay sticker at Columbia when you're likely to get a half ride or more at MVPDN (especially P, which feeds directly into NYC). The difference in career placement, while certainly existent, does not justify an extra $75,000.

Didn't sound like money was a particularly important issue to op, and anyway I would gladly pay 75k for Columbia over penn. the career difference there is pretty big...new thread time: but seriously...why Columbia?

If you want to go into academia, sure. But the difference in biglaw placement is ~10%. That's really big?

Check the graph at the top of this page out. It's pre-ITE, so the differences in placement are moderately more pronounced (hence, ~10% as opposed to say ~5%).

http://top-law-schools.com/forums/viewt ... 1&t=150681

Anyway, the point I'm trying to make is that EDing to Columbia will shut you out of a lot of options. You could still very feasibly get into Columbia RD (check out LSN). Hell, with a 4.0+, you could even slip into Harvard (which would certainly be worth sticker price).

Anyway, the point I'm trying to make is that EDing to Columbia will shut you out of a lot of options. You could still very feasibly get into Columbia RD (check out LSN). Hell, with a 4.0+, you could even slip into Harvard (which would certainly be worth sticker price).

We both agree on this point. Don't ED.

Also, HWood, can you elaborate on what it is? Any kind of graph like that for this economy? All the doom and gloom around here has me thinking it's about a 50% shot at biglaw from HYS, maybe 33% at CCN, and 20% the rest of the T14, with basically like 1% afterwards.

Curious1 wrote: Also, HWood, can you elaborate on what it is? Any kind of graph like that for this economy? All the doom and gloom around here has me thinking it's about a 50% shot at biglaw from HYS, maybe 33% at CCN, and 20% the rest of the T14, with basically like 1% afterwards.

lol I hope you aren't serious. Career prospects are not nearly that bad for the T14. (and the stronger T30s like Fordham and GW place 25-30% of their class in biglaw as well)

The biglaw percentages are inconsistent among YHS due to varying self-selection into academic and federal judicial clerkships, but rest assured, most everyone gets what they want, provided they make an affirmative effort and have some shred of social skills.

About 50% of Penn students got biglaw this OCI cycle, and I think the numbers are very similar for MVDN as well. Those figures are about 10% higher for CCN. Where CCN really outshines MVPDN is in clerkship/academia/prestigious PI placement.

HeavenWood wrote:

Curious1 wrote: Also, HWood, can you elaborate on what it is? Any kind of graph like that for this economy? All the doom and gloom around here has me thinking it's about a 50% shot at biglaw from HYS, maybe 33% at CCN, and 20% the rest of the T14, with basically like 1% afterwards.

lol I hope you aren't serious. Career prospects are not nearly that bad for the T14. (and the stronger T30s like Fordham and GW place 25-30% of their class in biglaw as well)

The biglaw percentages are inconsistent among YHS due to varying self-selection into academic and federal judicial clerkships, but rest assured, most everyone gets what they want, provided they make an affirmative effort and have some shred of social skills.

About 50% of Penn students got biglaw this OCI cycle, and I think the numbers are very similar for MVDN as well. Those figures are about 10% higher for CCN. Where CCN really outshines MVPDN is in clerkship/academia/prestigious PI placement.

I really did think what I said--hearing too many stories about HLS 2Ls who struck out completely at OCI, and especially about the up to 1/3 (depending on who you ask) of NYU who were completely shut out of biglaw this year. I'm scared as fuck right now as a 0L.

To clarify: when you say 50% of Penn gets biglaw, is that 50% out of those who want biglaw, or does that take into consideration self-selection for academia or government/PI as well?

Similar question for CCN. If CCN really outshines MVPDN in terms of non-biglaw, and if the 50%+10% takes into account these people who self-select out of biglaw, does that mean a larger percentage than 60% at CCN get biglaw, since the percentage of those who self-select out of biglaw is higher?

Curious1 wrote:

HeavenWood wrote:

Curious1 wrote: Also, HWood, can you elaborate on what it is? Any kind of graph like that for this economy? All the doom and gloom around here has me thinking it's about a 50% shot at biglaw from HYS, maybe 33% at CCN, and 20% the rest of the T14, with basically like 1% afterwards.

lol I hope you aren't serious. Career prospects are not nearly that bad for the T14. (and the stronger T30s like Fordham and GW place 25-30% of their class in biglaw as well)

The biglaw percentages are inconsistent among YHS due to varying self-selection into academic and federal judicial clerkships, but rest assured, most everyone gets what they want, provided they make an affirmative effort and have some shred of social skills.

About 50% of Penn students got biglaw this OCI cycle, and I think the numbers are very similar for MVDN as well. Those figures are about 10% higher for CCN. Where CCN really outshines MVPDN is in clerkship/academia/prestigious PI placement.

I really did think what I said--hearing too many stories about HLS 2Ls who struck out completely at OCI, and especially about the up to 1/3 (depending on who you ask) of NYU who were completely shut out of biglaw this year. I'm scared as fuck right now as a 0L.

To clarify: when you say 50% of Penn gets biglaw, is that 50% out of those who want biglaw, or does that take into consideration self-selection for academia or government/PI as well?

Similar question for CCN. If CCN really outshines MVPDN in terms of non-biglaw, and if the 50%+10% takes into account these people who self-select out of biglaw, does that mean a larger percentage than 60% at CCN get biglaw, since the percentage of those who self-select out of biglaw is higher?

50% of Penn gets biglaw, but certainly not everyone is after biglaw. Not everyone is getting what they want ITE, but I would venture that 3/4 of the class seems satisfied.

60% at CCN getting biglaw means 60% at CCN are getting biglaw. It's tough to quantify self-selection into the equation, as at just about every school, there are some people who seek biglaw who end up settling for something else (and vice versa--prestigious PI/federal clerkships/academia are not easy to get).

tl;dr CCN has a definite advantage, but for most debt-averse people, that advantage is not worth a TON of extra $$$.

HeavenWood wrote:

Curious1 wrote:

HeavenWood wrote:

Curious1 wrote: Also, HWood, can you elaborate on what it is? Any kind of graph like that for this economy? All the doom and gloom around here has me thinking it's about a 50% shot at biglaw from HYS, maybe 33% at CCN, and 20% the rest of the T14, with basically like 1% afterwards.

lol I hope you aren't serious. Career prospects are not nearly that bad for the T14. (and the stronger T30s like Fordham and GW place 25-30% of their class in biglaw as well)

The biglaw percentages are inconsistent among YHS due to varying self-selection into academic and federal judicial clerkships, but rest assured, most everyone gets what they want, provided they make an affirmative effort and have some shred of social skills.

About 50% of Penn students got biglaw this OCI cycle, and I think the numbers are very similar for MVDN as well. Those figures are about 10% higher for CCN. Where CCN really outshines MVPDN is in clerkship/academia/prestigious PI placement.

I really did think what I said--hearing too many stories about HLS 2Ls who struck out completely at OCI, and especially about the up to 1/3 (depending on who you ask) of NYU who were completely shut out of biglaw this year. I'm scared as fuck right now as a 0L.

To clarify: when you say 50% of Penn gets biglaw, is that 50% out of those who want biglaw, or does that take into consideration self-selection for academia or government/PI as well?

Similar question for CCN. If CCN really outshines MVPDN in terms of non-biglaw, and if the 50%+10% takes into account these people who self-select out of biglaw, does that mean a larger percentage than 60% at CCN get biglaw, since the percentage of those who self-select out of biglaw is higher?

50% of Penn gets biglaw, but certainly not everyone is after biglaw. Not everyone is getting what they want ITE, but I would venture that 3/4 of the class seems satisfied.

60% at CCN getting biglaw means 60% at CCN are getting biglaw. It's tough to quantify self-selection into the equation, as at just about every school, there are some people who seek biglaw who end up settling for something else (and vice versa--prestigious PI/federal clerkships/academia are not easy to get).

tl;dr CCN has a definite advantage, but for most debt-averse people, that advantage is not worth a TON of extra $$$.

It sounds like Penn is the last school in the T-14, after CCN, that really leaves the bulk of its graduates with strong career options, or am I missing something? I'm not really sold on UVA/Michigan (especially Michigan). I wouldn't mind working in DC, but ending up in Chicago isn't really something I want. Plus, I know this is only anecdotal, but I know a 2011 Michigan grad who is still looking for a job and he graduated top 30%, with significant work experience before law school. Right now he's volunteering at the legal aid program I volunteer at just to remain active.

If a Michigan grad in the top 30% is struggling to find employment ITE, I find it very hard to believe that the top 25-20% is doing well from schools outside of the T-14. Everything seems to affirm going for the school with the best career prospects is the right move. I don't want to get a free JD just to never be able to practice... Would ED improve my chances at Columbia, or does that do less for an applicant than ED to NYU?

Curious1 wrote: I really did think what I said--hearing too many stories about HLS 2Ls who struck out completely at OCI, and especially about the up to 1/3 (depending on who you ask) of NYU who were completely shut out of biglaw this year. I'm scared as fuck right now as a 0L.

To clarify: when you say 50% of Penn gets biglaw, is that 50% out of those who want biglaw, or does that take into consideration self-selection for academia or government/PI as well?

Similar question for CCN. If CCN really outshines MVPDN in terms of non-biglaw, and if the 50%+10% takes into account these people who self-select out of biglaw, does that mean a larger percentage than 60% at CCN get biglaw, since the percentage of those who self-select out of biglaw is higher?

wow yeah sure listen to those anecdotal stories, but know that they are by FAR the exception to the rule. based on a very reasonable estimate of LAST YR's OCI stats provided by OCS, ~80% of those who did OCI (so those who would want biglaw, I was assuming roughly 90% would shoot for OCI thus my "reasonable estimate" clarification) got a biglaw offer. this is not counting those who got firm jobs from mass mailing or other means, etc.

this year was also (anecdotal evidence) noticeably better than last year. while i have heard of a handful (literally) of those who did not get biglaw jobs from OCI, it is at least unrelated to grades.

vincentgambini wrote: It sounds like Penn is the last school in the T-14, after CCN, that really leaves the bulk of its graduates with strong career options, or am I missing something? I'm not really sold on UVA/Michigan (especially Michigan). I wouldn't mind working in DC, but ending up in Chicago isn't really something I want. Plus, I know this is only anecdotal, but I know a 2011 Michigan grad who is still looking for a job and he graduated top 30%, with significant work experience before law school. Right now he's volunteering at the legal aid program I volunteer at just to remain active.

If a Michigan grad in the top 30% is struggling to find employment ITE, I find it very hard to believe that the top 25-20% is doing well from schools outside of the T-14. Everything seems to affirm going for the school with the best career prospects is the right move. I don't want to get a free JD just to never be able to practice... Would ED improve my chances at Columbia, or does that do less for an applicant than ED to NYU?

No: Michigan, UVA, Duke, and Northwestern offer very similar career prospects. Penn is a bit stronger for New York, but not strong enough to justify paying considerably more for Penn than its peer schools.

That 50% of MVPDN grads doesn't solely comprise of the top half of the class. there will always be people toward the bottom of the class who end up doing very well at OCI. Likewise, there will always be strongly ranked people who strike out. This can happen for a variety of reasons: including a lackluster resume, poor interview skills, a bad bidding strategy, etc. etc. You said it yourself, that Michigan grad story is anecdotal. There's probably some extenuating circumstance you aren't telling us (or he isn't telling you).

I highly recommend blanketing the T14 (+ Vandy if it appeals to you). Don't ED anywhere. Please.

HeavenWood wrote:

vincentgambini wrote: It sounds like Penn is the last school in the T-14, after CCN, that really leaves the bulk of its graduates with strong career options, or am I missing something? I'm not really sold on UVA/Michigan (especially Michigan). I wouldn't mind working in DC, but ending up in Chicago isn't really something I want. Plus, I know this is only anecdotal, but I know a 2011 Michigan grad who is still looking for a job and he graduated top 30%, with significant work experience before law school. Right now he's volunteering at the legal aid program I volunteer at just to remain active.

If a Michigan grad in the top 30% is struggling to find employment ITE, I find it very hard to believe that the top 25-20% is doing well from schools outside of the T-14. Everything seems to affirm going for the school with the best career prospects is the right move. I don't want to get a free JD just to never be able to practice... Would ED improve my chances at Columbia, or does that do less for an applicant than ED to NYU?

No: Michigan, UVA, Duke, and Northwestern offer very similar career prospects. Penn is a bit stronger for New York, but not strong enough to justify paying considerably more for Penn than its peer schools.

That 50% of MVPDN grads doesn't solely comprise of the top half of the class. there will always be people toward the bottom of the class who end up doing very well at OCI. Likewise, there will always be strongly ranked people who strike out. This can happen for a variety of reasons: including a lackluster resume, poor interview skills, a bad bidding strategy, etc. etc. You said it yourself, that Michigan grad story is anecdotal. There's probably some extenuating circumstance you aren't telling us (or he isn't telling you).

I highly recommend blanketing the T14 (+ Vandy if it appeals to you). Don't ED anywhere. Please.

I think the Michigan grad was only looking for employment in New York which might not be the smartest idea coming from his school.

Thanks for the advice, I think I'll follow it and not ED anywhere. Even if I strike out with CCN the possibility of getting decent money at UVA, Penn or Cornell is enough of a reason not to limit myself. I guess Vandy and GW could be safeties, but even with an almost full ride at either school, I don't see myself attending. I know for a fact that people in the Fordham and GWU tier are really struggling in the job search, even those on LR.