20 year old needs law school answers!

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Lindsey4468
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20 year old needs law school answers!

Postby Lindsey4468 » Sat Sep 03, 2011 12:15 am

I posted this in another forum a while back but got no response (obviously it was in the wrong section).

Can anyone help me with my chances of getting into UT? PS: I am born and raised in Texas and stayed in Texas for UGRAD.

3.3 cumulative GPA, 3.5 University GPA, 3.5 major GPA. Criminology & Criminal Justice major.... 165 LSAT
Started college at 16, Dual credit program had an accident and doubled my classes (i took 45 hours in my freshman year/Junior year of HS but have an addendum for this), graduating at 20 years old (now). Transcript looks awful in first two years (3.0ish) but steadily increases and ended on a 3.75 in junior year and 4.0 for senior year. (Deans list during this time).

American Indian female, Grew up as a ward of the court, low income, numerous honor societies and over 1000 volunteer hours with North Texas Food Bank while in UGRAD. Worked all the way through college (sometimes multiple jobs), stellar rec. letters and personal statement, will be submitting for early decision with fee waiver application.

For me its UT or bust...
Any Ideas?

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SilverE2
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Re: 20 year old needs law school answers!

Postby SilverE2 » Sat Sep 03, 2011 12:28 am

American Indian? I would apply much higher than UT.

shoeshine
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Re: 20 year old needs law school answers!

Postby shoeshine » Sat Sep 03, 2011 12:31 am

Your URM status combined with your residency almost guarantees a shot at UT.

Write a kick ass PS.

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Moomoo2u
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Re: 20 year old needs law school answers!

Postby Moomoo2u » Sat Sep 03, 2011 12:31 am

SilverE2 wrote:American Indian? I would apply much higher than UT.


+1 you have a good shot at T6, if you boost that LSAT you would have an ok chance at HYS.

Sounds like you also have some very interesting and unique stuff to draw on for a personal/diversity statement. You should do very well.

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Montevillian
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Re: 20 year old needs law school answers!

Postby Montevillian » Sat Sep 03, 2011 3:14 am

Moomoo2u wrote:
+1 you have a good shot at T6, if you boost that LSAT you would have an ok chance at HYS.



Not to be rude or anything, but looking at the T6, it honestly doesn't look like this applicant has much of a chance. Sure, they've accepted people in this range before, but that's always been AA, normally male AAs. The NA bump is rather unpredictable, but it appears to be a bit less powerful than the AA bump. OP, you're basically a shoe-in for Texas, and it couldn't hurt to apply to the rest of the T14, but T6 is definitely unlikely, not to mention HYS.

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Moomoo2u
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Re: 20 year old needs law school answers!

Postby Moomoo2u » Sat Sep 03, 2011 9:43 am

maybe i was little over-optimistic, but with a 170 you would have a good shot at at least MVP.

Lindsey4468
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Re: 20 year old needs law school answers!

Postby Lindsey4468 » Sat Sep 03, 2011 11:14 am

Montevillian wrote:
Moomoo2u wrote:
+1 you have a good shot at T6, if you boost that LSAT you would have an ok chance at HYS.



Not to be rude or anything, but looking at the T6, it honestly doesn't look like this applicant has much of a chance. Sure, they've accepted people in this range before, but that's always been AA, normally male AAs. The NA bump is rather unpredictable, but it appears to be a bit less powerful than the AA bump. OP, you're basically a shoe-in for Texas, and it couldn't hurt to apply to the rest of the T14, but T6 is definitely unlikely, not to mention HYS.


Just to be more precise here, I have no intention of applying to HYS or T6... It is completely unrealistic as far as I'm concerned.

However, these are the schools that I will be sending my applications into:

UT (#1 choice), Baylor, SMU, Connecticut, Tulane, Colorado [these are schools I definitely want & I think they are within reach?]

Texas Tech, St.Marys, Kansas, OU [safety]

Notre Dame, Vanderbilt, Northwestern, Cornell, Georgetown [Reach schools... doubt I'll get them, but trying never hurt]

I believe this is a good list of schools to aim for, but if you have any ideas about my acceptance into anything on my list thats appreciated too!

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quakeroats
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Re: 20 year old needs law school answers!

Postby quakeroats » Sat Sep 03, 2011 11:45 am

Lindsey4468 wrote:I posted this in another forum a while back but got no response (obviously it was in the wrong section).

Can anyone help me with my chances of getting into UT? PS: I am born and raised in Texas and stayed in Texas for UGRAD.

3.3 cumulative GPA, 3.5 University GPA, 3.5 major GPA. Criminology & Criminal Justice major.... 165 LSAT
Started college at 16, Dual credit program had an accident and doubled my classes (i took 45 hours in my freshman year/Junior year of HS but have an addendum for this), graduating at 20 years old (now). Transcript looks awful in first two years (3.0ish) but steadily increases and ended on a 3.75 in junior year and 4.0 for senior year. (Deans list during this time).

American Indian female, Grew up as a ward of the court, low income, numerous honor societies and over 1000 volunteer hours with North Texas Food Bank while in UGRAD. Worked all the way through college (sometimes multiple jobs), stellar rec. letters and personal statement, will be submitting for early decision with fee waiver application.

For me its UT or bust...
Any Ideas?


Most schools have anywhere from 0-2 Native Americans with tribal affiliation in any given class. They're the hardest to recruit, and that makes the boost you'll get substantial. You should apply to every school in the T14 with the possible exception of Yale. If you're worried about the cost, contact the schools and request fee waivers. If you signed up for the LSAC credential thing and checked Native you should get plenty of them anyway. Your background screams HYS btw.

Renzo
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Re: 20 year old needs law school answers!

Postby Renzo » Sat Sep 03, 2011 12:07 pm

quakeroats wrote:
Most schools have anywhere from 0-2 Native Americans with tribal affiliation in any given class. They're the hardest to recruit, and that makes the boost you'll get substantial. You should apply to every school in the T14 with the possible exception of Yale. If you're worried about the cost, contact the schools and request fee waivers. If you signed up for the LSAC credential thing and checked Native you should get plenty of them anyway. Your background screams HYS btw.


Yes, this. From now on, when people ask "what are good soft factors?" I'm going to say, "well, things like being a public ward who goes from poverty to (eventually) doing very well in college, while simultaneously putting tremendous effort into giving back to the community."

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kalvano
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Re: 20 year old needs law school answers!

Postby kalvano » Sat Sep 03, 2011 1:32 pm

Has anyone bothered to look at an LSN chart for Texas? Not to dump on OP's accomplishments, but there is no such thing as a sub-3.5 "shoe in" for UT. They have a very hard cap at 3.5, and tons of URM's get rejected with better LSAT scores.


OP, I agree with the others though, definitely aim high. Your list of reach schools should probably be closer to target schools, and target schools should be your safety schools. And you would be a fool not to apply to every school in the T14, including HYS. It's not unreasonable to think that Yale might bite on a story like yours. Why? Because Yale can do whatever the hell it wants, and Yale loves applicants with truly diverse and interesting backgrounds.

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Glock
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Re: 20 year old needs law school answers!

Postby Glock » Sat Sep 03, 2011 2:16 pm

Apply everywhere. URM cycles are unpredictable.

Native Americans do have higher average LSAT scores vs. African Americans, so you would expect that it would take a higher lsat score to get a boost. Still, every school wants a few NA in their class and you might be the best applicant remaining.

Lindsey4468
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Re: 20 year old needs law school answers!

Postby Lindsey4468 » Sat Sep 03, 2011 3:47 pm

Nightrunner wrote:Something threw up the NDN signal. First and foremost: who are you, and how are you Native?

I realize that is a relatively ridiculous question (and/or a term paper for a Native Philosophy class), but the answer to it is likely to dictate a lot about your cycle. The "Native American bump," as TLS calls it, is only remotely predictable to the degree to which the applicant can display that they are, in fact, a Native American. Are you enrolled in a tribe? If so, you need to show that, either in an essay or in some other way (hell, put it on your resume, if you must). Are you active in your tribal community/a Native organization at your undergrad? Do you participate in cultural activities that would serve as outward evidence of your identifying as Native?

I'm not grilling you in particular, but trying to arrive at the point that the "Native American bump" is profoundly unpredictable because the Native-ness of ostensibly "Native American" applicants is so unpredictable. If you have done things with your life that illustrate that identity, then you should have an incredible cycle. If you are not enrolled, have never participated in any Native organization at any level, and your most solid connection to that identity is an internet indian name generator...then you'll still probably have a decent cycle, because some unscrupulous administrators will always take the padded stats of ethnic fraud, but your cycle will not be as good as many of the people in this thread seem to predict.

I hope you see that I'm not attacking you, in particular - I have no idea who you are - I'm just trying to help you predict where you might or might not be accepted, depending on where you fall in the identity continuum. An enrolled tribal member who was vice-president of the Native American Students organization on his or her campus - and who also has a great life story and a 165 - could end up at HYS, or with something like the AnBryce. An unenrolled applicant who has never participated in Native organizations or culture in any significant way will not have the same "bump," and in many cases will barely receive any "bump" at all.

Now, to advice:

1. Write a thorough and sound personal statement. It sounds like your life story will make a great essay, but you need to write it early and revise it often. Have several people review it, and help edit it.

2. Write a diversity statement. This is especially crucial for Native applicants, because this is one of the only real chances admissions people have of discerning Native applicants from applicants whose great-great-great-great-grandmother was a Cherokee princess (although no one can prove it, of course).

3. Apply to many schools ranked in the T14, even if you don't intend to go there. If you get into Texas, then a scholarship at Georgetown might be leveraged into a small scholarship at Texas (which, in turn, saves you TENS OF THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS in repayment). If you don't get into Texas, you will almost certainly kick yourself for all the other schools to which you did not apply.

3a. Seriously, apply everywhere. Your GPA is respectable, but below the normal cutoffs for top schools. Some schools are willing to overlook this for the right reasons, and some schools are not. Personally, my GPA was a little lower than your GPA, and my LSAT was higher than your LSAT (I'm also Native, BTW - in case that wasn't clear by now). I was straight rejected at Texas, and offered an almost-full-tuition scholarship at Georgetown. Granted, I am not a Texas resident (and my "Why Texas" essay was a whole lot of stretching), but this stuff is hard to predict, and you need to maximize your options. Apply everywhere.

Sorry for the length of this post; I'm also watching college football, and I'm too distracted to go back and make it shorter. Feel free to send me a message if you'd like.



I understand your apprehension in this matter. But this is not some "Name generator" situation. Although I am not a member of this tribe, there are many reasons.
1. the tribe was not officially recognized by the state until 2006.
2. They officially closed membership in 2008, but when they reopen it soon I will be eligible for membership
3. My family lost track of which tribe it was, but after some digging we found census records and various other documents that show them to be born on the reservation and we are now eligible to reconnect upon tribal membership reopening.
4. The tribe is in South Carolina (where my family is all from)... I am in Texas. This makes attending meetings and other events quite difficult.
5. The tribe is insanely small and we did not even know it existed because when we looked for something in that area, it was not state recognized yet.

My great grandmother and all other ancestors prior to her were born in this same township and were ALL Native american. In fact, she was born in a Teepee. The only thing that distinguishes her from the other ancestors is that she married a white man in the 1900's, hence me being here today. The genealogy has been traced and is confirmed with this group. I have documentation for all of this. I am currently waiting for more information from the Chief so that I can have hard evidence concerning her directly, as this tribe does not go strictly off the Dawes Roll for its membership identification purposes.

This is worked into my personal statement, and is encompassed in my diversity statement as well as my age. I have marked Native American on my LSAC profile as well as Caucasian, because I am of that heritage and the directions do clearly state "Check all that apply". It is not a situation of fraud, but rather one in which I have no way of gaining membership until they reopen. Additionally, the other side of my family is cherokee indian but has been difficult to find on the Dawes roll because they all changed last names in records we have but I'm researching that more in depth as well.

I appreciate your advice with this as I imagine many people will try to lie about their status... but this is not the case honestly.

Also, I do not expect to be a "Shoe in" at UT or anywhere for that matter... As I'm sure you all can see I have worked really hard to be where I am today and I expect to do the same to get into law school.

I simply do not want to spend countless hours filling out things like HYS if its completely absurd. I honestly felt like UT was a super stretch though. So maybe I will apply higher and see what comes back.

lightbulb1986
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Re: 20 year old needs law school answers!

Postby lightbulb1986 » Sat Sep 03, 2011 4:15 pm

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Last edited by lightbulb1986 on Sun Apr 24, 2016 1:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

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johansantana21
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Re: 20 year old needs law school answers!

Postby johansantana21 » Sat Sep 03, 2011 4:24 pm

NA boost is unpredictable. It's not like AA boost.

I would apply wide but I know for non-URM applicants, UT had a firm GPA cutoff at around 3.5.

shoeshine
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Re: 20 year old needs law school answers!

Postby shoeshine » Sat Sep 03, 2011 5:50 pm

Nightrunner wrote: from applicants whose great-great-great-great-grandmother was a Cherokee princess (although no one can prove it, of course).


It sounds like the OP fits into this category. Funny how no one realizes they were NA until they apply to law school.

Lindsey: It sounds like you are going to have a hard time proving you are native. If you can't check the box that states you are an enrolled member of a tribe the bump almost disappears. The only thing that could compensate for that fact is if you had a great story about growing up in the NA culture. It doesn't sound like you do.

Lindsey4468
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Re: 20 year old needs law school answers!

Postby Lindsey4468 » Sat Sep 03, 2011 6:45 pm

shoeshine wrote:
Nightrunner wrote: from applicants whose great-great-great-great-grandmother was a Cherokee princess (although no one can prove it, of course).


It sounds like the OP fits into this category. Funny how no one realizes they were NA until they apply to law school.

Lindsey: It sounds like you are going to have a hard time proving you are native. If you can't check the box that states you are an enrolled member of a tribe the bump almost disappears. The only thing that could compensate for that fact is if you had a great story about growing up in the NA culture. It doesn't sound like you do.



Thanks for your generic response... We've actually known about my heritage since I was a child. It only became worth researching when my dad was diagnosed with ALS this January. He is progressing rapidly, and all information from him will soon be lost. I never claimed to be "great great great great granddaughter of a cherokee princess". If you had cared to read the post, you would note that it said GREAT (one time) grandmother.... I believe that is much more reasonable than trying to claim six or eight generations back to a princess status. And in reference to the inability to prove it, I can. This is all explained in my PS and my diversity statement. Every bit of it, so there are ZERO discrepancies or questions left unanswered. But regardless, I never relied on marking NA on my application as the make or break factor here... So the situation is moot. I am far more focused on my upbringing in the courts, and community service being a high point in my apps. I am still entitled to check the box, whether you agree or not as I contacted LSAC and various schools concerning the matter.

Nightrunner: Thank you for not being assumptive about the situation. I think your advice is solid and I will try T14 minus HYS and the other Texas "peer" schools. I did exactly as you had suggested concerning the personal statement and diversity statement before you posted, so I feel better in that respect about what I wrote and my choice to focus on that aspect of my life.

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Yukos
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Re: 20 year old needs law school answers!

Postby Yukos » Sun Sep 04, 2011 7:22 am

I would apply to Yale. You have an incredible life story that sets hits at least two "diversity checkboxes" (NA and ward of the court). Yes it's time consuming, and $80 if you don't get a fee waver, but Yale is more than happy to take some people with "bad" numbers and a great story every year. And if you got in, you'd be going to the best law school with the best professors, the best fellow students and the best prospects to do whatever you want in life.

Just my two cents.




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