170/3.75; chances?

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jjcheng
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Re: 170/3.75; chances?

Postby jjcheng » Sun Aug 21, 2011 3:07 am

jlbk4 wrote:
moopness wrote:This is all absurd, these posts are WAY too optimistic. Harvard is NOT "up in the air", it's on the ground. You have no chance. Columbia is extremely unlikely, as is Chicago and NYU. Columbia ED won't help (at all) either, so you should ED Mich instead because you could very well get rejected RD. But I know you won't want to do that, because you think you have a shot Columbia ED.


It's refreshing to see a nice dose of honesty. OP, you have great numbers but be honest, do you really think you could get into Harvard? Unless you are URM, you're not getting in without a 3.9+/175+. Not to put you down (I have a 3.63/170 so I'm not flaming) but I really don't think it's realistic. I would try to figure out which school you want to attend most (that you have a realistic shot at) and go from there.


Even if I don't get into Harvard or Columbia, so what?

I'm perfectly content with going to Cornell or Toronto/UBC for that matter.

...and I lose what? A couple of hundred dollars in application fees and a few hours of my time? I'm already spending so much time on essay/apps that I have a lot of sunk costs, the marginal benefit (with a decent expected value given such a high payoff, although a low probability) really outweighs the marginal costs IMO.

But I appreciate the honesty.

jlbk4
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Re: 170/3.75; chances?

Postby jlbk4 » Sun Aug 21, 2011 3:17 am

jjcheng wrote:
jlbk4 wrote:
moopness wrote:This is all absurd, these posts are WAY too optimistic. Harvard is NOT "up in the air", it's on the ground. You have no chance. Columbia is extremely unlikely, as is Chicago and NYU. Columbia ED won't help (at all) either, so you should ED Mich instead because you could very well get rejected RD. But I know you won't want to do that, because you think you have a shot Columbia ED.


It's refreshing to see a nice dose of honesty. OP, you have great numbers but be honest, do you really think you could get into Harvard? Unless you are URM, you're not getting in without a 3.9+/175+. Not to put you down (I have a 3.63/170 so I'm not flaming) but I really don't think it's realistic. I would try to figure out which school you want to attend most (that you have a realistic shot at) and go from there.


Even if I don't get into Harvard or Columbia, so what?

I'm perfectly content with going to Cornell or Toronto/UBC for that matter.

...and I lose what? A couple of hundred dollars in application fees and a few hours of my time? I'm already spending so much time on essay/apps that I have a lot of sunk costs, the marginal benefit to me really outweighs the marginal costs.

But I appreciate the honesty.



I understand what you mean. I just don't want you to get your hopes up for Harvard or Columbia when chances are nearly non existent. The big question is where do you really want to go?

jjcheng
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Re: 170/3.75; chances?

Postby jjcheng » Sun Aug 21, 2011 3:32 am

jlbk4 wrote:
jjcheng wrote:
jlbk4 wrote:
moopness wrote:This is all absurd, these posts are WAY too optimistic. Harvard is NOT "up in the air", it's on the ground. You have no chance. Columbia is extremely unlikely, as is Chicago and NYU. Columbia ED won't help (at all) either, so you should ED Mich instead because you could very well get rejected RD. But I know you won't want to do that, because you think you have a shot Columbia ED.


It's refreshing to see a nice dose of honesty. OP, you have great numbers but be honest, do you really think you could get into Harvard? Unless you are URM, you're not getting in without a 3.9+/175+. Not to put you down (I have a 3.63/170 so I'm not flaming) but I really don't think it's realistic. I would try to figure out which school you want to attend most (that you have a realistic shot at) and go from there.


Even if I don't get into Harvard or Columbia, so what?

I'm perfectly content with going to Cornell or Toronto/UBC for that matter.

...and I lose what? A couple of hundred dollars in application fees and a few hours of my time? I'm already spending so much time on essay/apps that I have a lot of sunk costs, the marginal benefit to me really outweighs the marginal costs.

But I appreciate the honesty.


I understand what you mean. I just don't want you to get your hopes up for Harvard or Columbia when chances are nearly non existent. The big question is where do you really want to go?


Honestly? Somewhere that will light up eyes and hearts in Biglaw AND Mainland China, which is to say any Ivy League Law school or top ranked school with Chinese cred, hence my American choices. And thats because, yes, I do want to work in "international law".

$1.99 wrote:lol whut? you don't study chinese law in a U.S. school. please don't tell me you are one of those international law wannabes.


Thanks for reading my original post. I've already interned at a Chinese firm. My family connects are almost all in the Mainland. Chinese law, particularily corporate law is in a growing stage. They really do need people who have a grasp of not only the legal complexities of today's global business climate but the cultural nuances. (This is coming from various prominent lawyers and firsthand experience.) Hell, I'm writing my PS on this, based on my Internship experience.

I really believe the legal market is the reverse in China than is the US, as is with many things.

It'd be great to work for Baker, Clifford or Linklaters in their Shanghai/Beijing/HK/Sinapore office, making an American salary in terms of figures but spending it in Asia, where family is and shit is cheaper, for now.

Look, Asia's where the world's headed. I'm just trying to catch the tide...back.
Last edited by jjcheng on Fri Jan 11, 2013 7:56 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: 170/3.75; chances?

Postby soj » Sun Aug 21, 2011 4:34 am

I don't know where you got the idea that CLS is the best place outside China to learn Chinese law. The conventional wisdom here is that all US law schools are equally useless for that purpose. Nor are they useful for learning the legal complexities of today's global business climate or the cultural nuances. A US JD might be useful if Chinese employers somehow don't know or don't care that a US JD provides essentially no useful skills for a lawyer in China. Otherwise, I'd seriously reconsider applying to US law schools.

As for chances, I think Harvard, Columbia, and Chicago are out; you should be in at Michigan, Penn, Cornell, and Toronto.

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Re: 170/3.75; chances?

Postby jjcheng » Sun Aug 21, 2011 4:58 am

soj wrote:I don't know where you got the idea that CLS is the best place outside China to learn Chinese law. The conventional wisdom here is that all US law schools are equally useless for that purpose. Nor are they useful for learning the legal complexities of today's global business climate or the cultural nuances. A US JD might be useful if Chinese employers somehow don't know or don't care that a US JD provides essentially no useful skills for a lawyer in China. Otherwise, I'd seriously reconsider applying to US law schools.

As for chances, I think Harvard, Columbia, and Chicago are out; you should be in at Michigan, Penn, Cornell, and Toronto.


Well, I plan to do an exchange and/or LLM in China. I'm looking to find a way to get pass the red tape and jump over the Chinese bar, then be barred in both China and America. The American JD is the foot in the door to International firms. So yes, I'm "prestige whoring" if you will...

But the JD is not useless in its own right. Many international cases, if not most, are done in English. Many international statutes, and there aren't that many at the moment, were written by Anglos. So that's why an American JD is useful in that regard. (The case I was working on last summer went to arbitration tribunal, which is common for many sour deals in China. We literally arbitrarily picked a UN statute to base our case on. However, there were so many communication problems between both sides, that the other side didn't even care what statue we used, because there was no "common language" even though both sides were using English.)

Columbia from my research is the best place outside of China to study Chinese law. The cooperation between Columbia and top Chinese Law schools as well as the Chinese judiciary is well known. Michigan is also playing up their China connections. As is Cornell.

See:
http://www.law.columbia.edu/center_program/chinese
http://www.law.columbia.edu/focusareas/asianlegal/china
http://www.law.columbia.edu/center_prog ... ingscholar
http://www.law.columbia.edu/media_inqui ... Judge-2011
http://www.law.columbia.edu/center_prog ... udy/Peking

http://www.law.umich.edu/mlawglobal/cur ... anlaw.aspx

http://www.lawschool.cornell.edu/intern ... Index2.cfm
--LinkRemoved--

If I wanted to work as a Chinese lawyer doing Chinese law, then yes I should go to PKU, Renmin, Tsinghua etc., but that's not the plan nor an option given my alien status.

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Re: 170/3.75; chances?

Postby bjsesq » Sun Aug 21, 2011 5:14 pm

moopness wrote:This is all absurd, these posts are WAY too optimistic. Harvard is NOT "up in the air", it's on the ground. You have no chance. Columbia is extremely unlikely, as is Chicago and NYU. Columbia ED won't help (at all) either, so you should ED Mich instead because you could very well get rejected RD. But I know you won't want to do that, because you think you have a shot Columbia ED.


She shouldn't ed to Michigan when when she has a decent shot at money there. And how was my post absurd when you essentially repeated what i said? LOLumadandcan'tread.

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Re: 170/3.75; chances?

Postby moopness » Sun Aug 21, 2011 6:15 pm

bjsesq wrote:
moopness wrote:This is all absurd, these posts are WAY too optimistic. Harvard is NOT "up in the air", it's on the ground. You have no chance. Columbia is extremely unlikely, as is Chicago and NYU. Columbia ED won't help (at all) either, so you should ED Mich instead because you could very well get rejected RD. But I know you won't want to do that, because you think you have a shot Columbia ED.


She shouldn't ed to Michigan when when she has a decent shot at money there. And how was my post absurd when you essentially repeated what i said? LOLumadandcan'tread.

Couldn't find anyone who got money at Mich with those numbers on LSN, but admittedly I didn't look very hard. Also, Mich's numbers are a lot lower than I thought they were, so I redact my ED to Mich comment (still think ED to Columbia is nonsensical though).
By absurd I was mainly talking about the majority of posts here that said she had a shot at Harvard or Columbia. Even yours was a bit more optimistic than I would like ("I don't think you're getting H or C" vs "You're NOT getting H or C").
And I have nothing to be mad about. Dontknowwhatchutalkinbout.

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Re: 170/3.75; chances?

Postby grimfan » Sun Aug 21, 2011 9:04 pm

jjcheng wrote:Look, Asia's where the world's headed. I'm just trying to catch the tide...back. Hehe. Besides, I'm treated like a second-class immigrant in North America; I'm a national treasure here.


Sorry to derail the thread, but what makes you say that? I'm not disagreeing with you; I'm just interested in any specific incidents.

Also, if I had your stats, I would probably apply ED to MVP or perhaps NYU to maximize my chances of getting into a T-10 school. I would probably give up on Columbia.

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Re: 170/3.75; chances?

Postby jjcheng » Sun Aug 21, 2011 9:24 pm

grimfan wrote:
jjcheng wrote:Look, Asia's where the world's headed. I'm just trying to catch the tide...back. Hehe. Besides, I'm treated like a second-class immigrant in North America; I'm a national treasure here.


Sorry to derail the thread, but what makes you say that? I'm not disagreeing with you; I'm just interested in any specific incidents.

Also, if I had your stats, I would probably apply ED to MVP or perhaps NYU to maximize my chances of getting into a T-10 school. I would probably give up on Columbia.


Sound advice, but I'd rather go to Penn/Cornell than NYU simply because of what I want. NYU just doesn't have the same weight overseas since it's not an ivy. Less "face" value, very essential to smoozing in Asia.

Michigan vs NYU would be a toss up. Even though I know NYU is the holy grail for int'l law and that Jerome Cohen teaches there, Michigan is more China-law centered. They want to attract Mandarin speaking students. see link in previous post

In regards to my own personal experiences, I was exaggerating about being treated like a 2nd class citizen and a national treasure. I guess I get special treatment here in China because of the fact that I grew up overseas. Whereas growing up as poor (visible minority) immigrant in N. America doesn't exact open doors for you.

But Berkeley is huge here, might give that a consider.

And, bjsesq: Do you mind if you let me know what schools did you get into (I believe you said you had the exact same numbers)? PM me if you don't want to post.
Last edited by jjcheng on Fri Jan 11, 2013 8:00 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: 170/3.75; chances?

Postby jjcheng » Sun Aug 21, 2011 9:32 pm

I'm surprized at the amount of attention this thread is getting. I expected only like a post or two.
Last edited by jjcheng on Sun Aug 21, 2011 11:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 170/3.75; chances?

Postby $1.99 » Sun Aug 21, 2011 9:53 pm

why don't you do galaxy law instead of international law? maybe even unicorn law?

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Re: 170/3.75; chances?

Postby jjcheng » Sun Aug 21, 2011 10:16 pm

$1.99 wrote:why don't you do galaxy law instead of international law? maybe even unicorn law?


I hear that NYU also has a great galaxy law program in addition to their international program. For unicorn law...well you can't beat Yale.

But I'm not that interested in intergalactic treaties or helping with lunar mining projects, so I don't think I'll want to study it.

Unicorns, while bitchin', are, well...bitches. I hear they are real demanding clients, so screw that. Besides, I don't speak rainbowhoof.

Any other ridiculous questions you'd like answered?
Last edited by jjcheng on Fri Jan 11, 2013 8:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 170/3.75; chances?

Postby $1.99 » Sun Aug 21, 2011 10:22 pm

why are you so delusional and inept at applying to law school?

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Re: 170/3.75; chances?

Postby bdubs » Sun Aug 21, 2011 10:27 pm

jjcheng wrote:
grimfan wrote:
jjcheng wrote:Look, Asia's where the world's headed. I'm just trying to catch the tide...back. Hehe. Besides, I'm treated like a second-class immigrant in North America; I'm a national treasure here.


Sorry to derail the thread, but what makes you say that? I'm not disagreeing with you; I'm just interested in any specific incidents.

Also, if I had your stats, I would probably apply ED to MVP or perhaps NYU to maximize my chances of getting into a T-10 school. I would probably give up on Columbia.


Sound advice, but I'd rather go to Penn/Cornell than NYU simply because of what I want. NYU just doesn't have the same weight overseas since it's not an ivy. Less "face" value, very essential to smoozing in Asia.


The relative prestige of the school in Asia is meaningless if you're trying to land a position with a US/UK BigLaw firm. The firms all know the hierarchy and NYU is seen as a better school than Cornell, Penn may be able to hold its own a little better but I would imagine NYU has more students working abroad than Penn (just given its size if nothing else) so I would still give it the edge.

People here are giving you a hard time because your goals and priorities don't seem to align.

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Re: 170/3.75; chances?

Postby jjcheng » Sun Aug 21, 2011 11:24 pm

bdubs wrote:
The relative prestige of the school in Asia is meaningless if you're trying to land a position with a US/UK BigLaw firm. The firms all know the hierarchy and NYU is seen as a better school than Cornell, Penn may be able to hold its own a little better but I would imagine NYU has more students working abroad than Penn (just given its size if nothing else) so I would still give it the edge.

People here are giving you a hard time because your goals and priorities don't seem to align.


Fair enough, but I can have more than one goal though. From what I've read, provided one does well at any of T-14 schools, one have a good shot at big law. The median salaries are roughly the same also: 160K (some 145Ks here and there, but that's definitely livable, even in New York). So then I start looking at other considerations.

I'm not the only person I'm trying to please here. My parents have made enormous sacrficies and worked very hard to get to where we are, I'd be a bad son if I didn't consider their feelings as well. Although they don't openly say it, getting into an Ivy league school would make it all seem worth it.

Prestige is important. 40% of USNWR's rankings are some form of prestige, i.e. how someone views that school. That's an aggregate of lawyers, judges etc. Fine, that's important for the legal world. But in my world, my, my parents and my friends/colleagues prestige rankings matter also, in a different way.

We could use Leiter's more objective/quantitative rankings, but I think it's splitting hairs at the top. I would say that the academic culture and what one makes of the environment is much more important in accessing where is good for a legal education.

Here's my reasoning for my schools:

Harvard: enough said
Columbia: strong corporate/intl'/chinese law programs, PKU exchange, in NYC - I'd find exactly what I'd want academically/professionally here
Chicago: fiercely intellectual academic culture, economics - I'd fit in here intellectually
Michigan: most gung-ho about Chinese law in T-14, wants to attract Mandarin speaking JDs - I'd find many future lawyers/professors who are interested in Chinese law here
Penn: Ivy, Wharton classes, corporate law, Tsinghua exchange with an option to doing an LLM in 6 months afterwards - I'd meet many future business leaders at an Ivy school here, with an option to get a LLM at Tsinghua in 6 months after
Cornell: Ivy, humanist focus: "lawyers in the best sense", really wants/tries to be international - I see potential: Clarke Initiative, exchange, joint-degree and summer programs with Chinese schools, surprisingly good corporate placement - I'd meet some great people here, and surprisingly many opportunities to study in China

I appreciate the maturity and honesty btw.

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Re: 170/3.75; chances?

Postby Blessedassurance » Sun Aug 21, 2011 11:34 pm

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Re: 170/3.75; chances?

Postby bdubs » Mon Aug 22, 2011 12:24 am

jjcheng wrote:Here's my reasoning for my schools


Sounds like you already have strong opinions on which to base your decision. My recommendation is to send in your apps and then reassess your options after you find out where you get in. The only advice you should really consider from TLS now is where to use your ED, and everyone here has already told you that Columbia is probably not the right place for it. Out of your schools I would recommend an ED to Penn.

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Re: 170/3.75; chances?

Postby grimfan » Mon Aug 22, 2011 8:30 am

$1.99 has grown his internuts and is being a cyber tough guy to make up for all the abuse he passively takes in real life, or something.

OP has done his research and seems to know what he wants, so let's not pretend that he's some pie-in-the-sky dreamer.

But to the OP, I wouldn't rule out NYU out so fast just because it's not an Ivy. Firstly, few people are actually aware that Cornell is an Ivy. In fact, I'd say that many people don't know what schools are in the Ivy League except for HYP. I'd seriously doubt that the average Chinese person knows that Cornell is an Ivy League school, so that point is moot. And everybody around the world thinks New York City is this heaven where you can drink martinis, visit museums, and write frivolous novellas all day, so any name school in that city is going to garner big respect.

I still strongly stand by my statement that you should ED to MVP.

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Re: 170/3.75; chances?

Postby jjcheng » Mon Aug 22, 2011 9:29 am

grimfan wrote:$1.99 has grown his internuts and is being a cyber tough guy to make up for all the abuse he passively takes in real life, or something.

OP has done his research and seems to know what he wants, so let's not pretend that he's some pie-in-the-sky dreamer.

But to the OP, I wouldn't rule out NYU out so fast just because it's not an Ivy. Firstly, few people are actually aware that Cornell is an Ivy. In fact, I'd say that many people don't know what schools are in the Ivy League except for HYP. I'd seriously doubt that the average Chinese person knows that Cornell is an Ivy League school, so that point is moot. And everybody around the world thinks New York City is this heaven where you can drink martinis, visit museums, and write frivolous novellas all day, so any name school in that city is going to garner big respect.

I still strongly stand by my statement that you should ED to MVP.


Thanks for the thoughtful response.

I'm giving NYU a second look now. Probably will apply to it, as well as Berkeley for that matter. I've already paid my LSDAS fee anyways.

Perhaps I'm a little uneducated regarding what the function of ED was. My understanding is that you should ED to your dream school where you have a below average chance at. This way if you get it, great and forget about scholly haggling, cuz it's a reach school. If you don't get the ED school, then hey, it was a long shot anyways. Columbia (or Chicago) seems to fit this bill. I chose Columbia because I like it a bit better than Chicago.

Am I mistaken? Why would it be advisable for me to ED to MVP, which are target schools.

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Re: 170/3.75; chances?

Postby bdubs » Mon Aug 22, 2011 11:00 am

jjcheng wrote:Perhaps I'm a little uneducated regarding what the function of ED was. My understanding is that you should ED to your dream school where you have a below average chance at. This way if you get it, great and forget about scholly haggling, cuz it's a reach school. If you don't get the ED school, then hey, it was a long shot anyways. Columbia (or Chicago) seems to fit this bill. I chose Columbia because I like it a bit better than Chicago.

Am I mistaken? Why would it be advisable for me to ED to MVP, which are target schools.


ED lowers the bar, but only by a little bit. ED is a small boost to your application, think about it like a 1 LSAT point bump. If you most likely would not get in to Columbia with a 171/3.75 (which you probably wouldn't) then ED is not going to get you over that bar. On the other hand if you had a decent shot, like at a school that accepts about 50% of people with your numbers, then ED makes a lot of sense if you really want to go there.

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Re: 170/3.75; chances?

Postby Blessedassurance » Mon Aug 22, 2011 11:20 pm

OP, apply early action to Cornell, it's Ivy League and non-binding and then ED somewhere else. I think your infatuation with "Ivy league" is a tad silly but to each his own. I'm assuming you realize Stanford is not an Ivy League. This is not undergrad. It's like discounting the University of Washington for Medical School because it's not Ivy League.

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Re: 170/3.75; chances?

Postby jjcheng » Mon Aug 22, 2011 11:42 pm

Blessedassurance wrote:OP, apply early action to Cornell, it's Ivy League and non-binding and then ED somewhere else. I think your infatuation with "Ivy league" is a tad silly but to each his own. I'm assuming you realize Stanford is not an Ivy League. This is not undergrad. It's like discounting the University of Washington for Medical School because it's not Ivy League.


In fact, I am planning to apply Early Action to Cornell; thanks for the advice.

It's not so much my infatuation with the Ivy League, as it's my parents and laymen's infatuation with it. I'd take Chicago over Penn or Cornell in a heartbeat.

I'm very well aware of what school's are good for what purpose, and I've taken them into account. I just make no apologies for accounting for lay prestige in my personal rankings for schools along with other subjective factors.

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Re: 170/3.75; chances?

Postby tonton » Fri Aug 26, 2011 6:58 am

jjcheng wrote:
Blessedassurance wrote:OP, apply early action to Cornell, it's Ivy League and non-binding and then ED somewhere else. I think your infatuation with "Ivy league" is a tad silly but to each his own. I'm assuming you realize Stanford is not an Ivy League. This is not undergrad. It's like discounting the University of Washington for Medical School because it's not Ivy League.


In fact, I am planning to apply Early Action to Cornell; thanks for the advice.

It's not so much my infatuation with the Ivy League, as it's my parents and laymen's infatuation with it. I'd take Chicago over Penn or Cornell in a heartbeat.

I'm very well aware of what school's are good for what purpose, and I've taken them into account. I just make no apologies for accounting for lay prestige in my personal rankings for schools along with other subjective factors.


Look, evidently everyone has an opinion, telling you that you shouldn't apply because you wouldn't get in. I really think you should apply to ALL the schools on your list because you really never know, my sister had similar "softs" as you, not that very strong numbers, she wrote an amazing PS, applied to Harvard just so she wouldn't regret it, and she got in. Who knows? maybe the people reviewing your application were wondering where the chinese were before they got to your file...whatever. At the end of the cycle, you will value the $80 spent on the app less than the amount of time you will spend wondering "what if" if you don't apply. all the best! :)

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Re: 170/3.75; chances?

Postby bjsesq » Fri Aug 26, 2011 11:13 am

jjcheng wrote:And, bjsesq: Do you mind if you let me know what schools did you get into (I believe you said you had the exact same numbers)? PM me if you don't want to post.


Holy shit, just saw this. Sorry.

In:

UVA no money
Duke $
Northwestern $$
Cornell no money (cheap fucks)
WUSTL $$$$$
Emory $$
Iowa $$$$$

Waitlist with never a thing heard again:

U of Chicago

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Re: 170/3.75; chances?

Postby jjcheng » Fri Dec 23, 2011 10:44 pm

Well, thats the end of my cycle:

Applied to all the T14 + U of T and UBC.

In at Duke, NW, Cornell and Georgetown.

In at U of T.

Just got into Columbia ED via email.

Thanks for all those who gave constructive comments. The trolls may now wallow in their self-loathing; I have learned never to feed the trolls. Thanks TLS!




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