Splitter Alert 2.9/165

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fountino
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Splitter Alert 2.9/165

Postby fountino » Thu Aug 11, 2011 10:20 pm

I'm interested to hear your thoughts on my chances in the following schools. Obviously, I'm more interested to hear first hand accounts of those in a similar situation (or know someone) than those simply running numbers in a predictor and speculating.

2.9/165
Large Private
Pretty good softs: collegiate athlete, solid work experience, lived abroad a couple of years (proficient in Japanese)

Really like:
SMU
Ohio St.
Penn State
Baylor
Utah
Also looking at:
Pitt
FSU
Wake Forest
ASU

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kalvano
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Re: Splitter Alert 2.9/165

Postby kalvano » Fri Aug 12, 2011 5:11 pm

SMU - probably out, but they are an LSAT school, so possibly in. Chances not good though.
Penn State - In.
Baylor - In (but don't go)
Wake Forest - Out


Only ones I know of, sorry.

The graphs on Law School Predictor are extremely helpful. I find them more useful than the percentage predictors.

admisionquestion
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Re: Splitter Alert 2.9/165

Postby admisionquestion » Sat Aug 13, 2011 2:33 am

I am sick of getting into these fights...and this will likely be the last one in a while:

DO NOT GO.


165 LSAT is reasonable but nothing amazing. 2.9 GPA is absolute trash (as you know).

If you go to a school bad enough to give you money you will have wasted three years, studying hard, without improving your job prospects.

If you go to the best school you can get into at sticker you will have a 90+ percent chance of having wasted three years, studying hard, without improving your job prospects AND 100K+ additional debt. In the less than 10 percent chance you "succeed" you will work your ass off in hopes of paying off that debt before you burn out of big law. I believe that your a better student than you were in UG but what makes you think you are in the top 10% of the whatever LS you attend?

Please Please Please for your own sake do not go. If you have to go, then please please go to somewhere you can get a scholarship, so you at least can have only wasted 3 years...

ALSO: By going you hurt everyone else. You further saturate the market and make it harder for everyone. Obviously everyone has an equal right to go so that should not be a real concern to anyone. But, it does add a final slap in the face to the whole thing. You will be ruining your own life and making the lives of several thousand people .001% more difficult.

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RaleighStClair
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Re: Splitter Alert 2.9/165

Postby RaleighStClair » Sat Aug 13, 2011 3:14 am

I think you have very good chances at Pitt, SMU, Penn State, and FSU.

admisionquestion wrote:If you go to a school bad enough to give you money you will have wasted three years, studying hard, without improving your job prospects.

If you go to the best school you can get into at sticker you will have a 90+ percent chance of having wasted three years, studying hard, without improving your job prospects AND 100K+ additional debt. In the less than 10 percent chance you "succeed" you will work your ass off in hopes of paying off that debt before you burn out of big law.


1) Having a J.D. in addition to his undergrad improves his job prospects (no matter how marginally) at least some.
2) A 165 can get him into decent schools, certainly not ones that would guarantee a 90% chance of a "wasted three years". Did you pull that 90% out of your ass?
3) You have no idea how debt averse this individual is. For all you know, his parents could be footing the bill, or he could get a nice scholarship, who knows?
4) You have no idea what kind of employment he is seeking, and if it is BigLaw, how do you know he's going to "burn out"?

I understand the difficult choices potential law students have to be making these days, but all you know about this person is his GPA and LSAT score. Cool it.

admisionquestion
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Re: Splitter Alert 2.9/165

Postby admisionquestion » Sat Aug 13, 2011 11:55 am

1) Having a J.D. in addition to his undergrad improves his job prospects (no matter how marginally) at least some.
2) A 165 can get him into decent schools, certainly not ones that would guarantee a 90% chance of a "wasted three years". Did you pull that 90% out of your ass?
3) You have no idea how debt averse this individual is. For all you know, his parents could be footing the bill, or he could get a nice scholarship, who knows?
4) You have no idea what kind of employment he is seeking, and if it is BigLaw, how do you know he's going to "burn out"?


Lets start with 3. If his parents are footing the bill then I retract all my comments. Then its a matter of how much of his parents money he wants to waste...which is a very different question. Assuming this is not the case...

1. Your right, but that's not the point...What job will it improve his prospects at?
2. The first school that hits as "consider" on law school predictor is Illinois. Predictor is obviously imperfect but I think this is a reasonable baseline, considering it is generous to say he will get into a school that only says, "consider." So imagine his situation is at best this good but likely worse:

That will cost him 60,000 a year after including living expenses. So he graduates with 150K or more debt. Illinois claims to hit almost 40% big law. Which is high for its rank but being the third best school near CHI helps. The real number however, is the one produced by the National Law Journal, they show that only 17 percent hits NLJ250 firms. So yeah 17 percent is better than 10 percent, but given how terrible he did in UG I don't think its a huge stretch to say his chances are around 10 percent. Furthermore, if he misses Illinois his next school he has a reasonable shot at is, Wisconsin. The COA at Wi is about 120,000, but the chance of hitting big law is about 10%

So to answer your question, no I did not just pull 90% out of my ass... its a fair guess....

4. If its not big law then the schools he can get into are actually pretty respectable institutions. However, taking on 100K+ debt in hopes of paying it off on a salary that MIGHT rise to 60,000 is not a great idea. 60,000-taxes=50,000. Subtract Cost of Living, (I used Wisconsin's average) 10,000 remaining. That means that assuming no interest on the debt he would still need about 10 years to pay it off... Just to live at average quality of life... after working his ass off for three years. So yeah, perhaps he has some very fun or noble career goals...but financially its a terrible terrible decision....given his grades/lsat.

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kalvano
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Re: Splitter Alert 2.9/165

Postby kalvano » Sat Aug 13, 2011 12:33 pm

Admisinquestion is an ignorant ass. Ignore.

admisionquestion
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Re: Splitter Alert 2.9/165

Postby admisionquestion » Sat Aug 13, 2011 3:41 pm

Please support your insult with some reasoning.

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Kabuo
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Re: Splitter Alert 2.9/165

Postby Kabuo » Sat Aug 13, 2011 3:45 pm

Raise your LSAT 3 points if you can and rake in a full ride from IUB since you don't seem to mind big 10, or a 2/3 scholly from WUSTL. UIUC and Minnesota would probably throw something at you then too. If you've peaked on the LSAT, obv disregard, but if not, get studying again right away. 3 points will make a huge difference.

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bport hopeful
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Re: Splitter Alert 2.9/165

Postby bport hopeful » Sat Aug 13, 2011 3:51 pm

admisionquestion wrote:I am sick of getting into these fights...and this will likely be the last one in a while:

DO NOT GO.


165 LSAT is reasonable but nothing amazing. 2.9 GPA is absolute trash (as you know).

If you go to a school bad enough to give you money you will have wasted three years, studying hard, without improving your job prospects.

If you go to the best school you can get into at sticker you will have a 90+ percent chance of having wasted three years, studying hard, without improving your job prospects AND 100K+ additional debt. In the less than 10 percent chance you "succeed" you will work your ass off in hopes of paying off that debt before you burn out of big law. I believe that your a better student than you were in UG but what makes you think you are in the top 10% of the whatever LS you attend?

Please Please Please for your own sake do not go. If you have to go, then please please go to somewhere you can get a scholarship, so you at least can have only wasted 3 years...

ALSO: By going you hurt everyone else. You further saturate the market and make it harder for everyone. Obviously everyone has an equal right to go so that should not be a real concern to anyone. But, it does add a final slap in the face to the whole thing. You will be ruining your own life and making the lives of several thousand people .001% more difficult.

This is retarded.

Go to a TT on scholly.

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kalvano
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Re: Splitter Alert 2.9/165

Postby kalvano » Sat Aug 13, 2011 7:03 pm

admisionquestion wrote:Please support your insult with some reasoning.



admisionquestion wrote:I am sick of getting into these fights...and this will likely be the last one in a while:

DO NOT GO.


165 LSAT is reasonable but nothing amazing. 2.9 GPA is absolute trash (as you know).

If you go to a school bad enough to give you money you will have wasted three years, studying hard, without improving your job prospects.

If you go to the best school you can get into at sticker you will have a 90+ percent chance of having wasted three years, studying hard, without improving your job prospects AND 100K+ additional debt. In the less than 10 percent chance you "succeed" you will work your ass off in hopes of paying off that debt before you burn out of big law. I believe that your a better student than you were in UG but what makes you think you are in the top 10% of the whatever LS you attend?

Please Please Please for your own sake do not go. If you have to go, then please please go to somewhere you can get a scholarship, so you at least can have only wasted 3 years...

ALSO: By going you hurt everyone else. You further saturate the market and make it harder for everyone. Obviously everyone has an equal right to go so that should not be a real concern to anyone. But, it does add a final slap in the face to the whole thing. You will be ruining your own life and making the lives of several thousand people .001% more difficult.

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Kabuo
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Re: Splitter Alert 2.9/165

Postby Kabuo » Sat Aug 13, 2011 7:41 pm

I think there is some merit to the don't go advice, but if OP doesn't go, and if he would have gotten a scholly, his spot will only be taken by a less numerically qualified applicant who the school might not feel is even worth the scholly. The idea that he has any impact at all, even the most insignificant one, on the saturation of the legal market is just wrong. Even the worst schools only accept like 80%. Plenty more people willing to pay sticker on loans when those schools lower standards even more.

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Rock-N-Roll
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Re: Splitter Alert 2.9/165

Postby Rock-N-Roll » Sat Aug 13, 2011 7:56 pm

If OP wants to be a lawyer than he or she should go to law school. The job market is bad, and it is well known. I also think the choice of schools applied to is reasonable. Good luck.

I would only take issue with whether these numbers truly make OP a splitter in the way it is used on TLS. A splitter is someone who would has a GPA that would have been auto-reject at a competitive school were it not for an unusually high LSAT score. There is no hard rule for numbers that define a splitter (as far as I know) but I would put it at a GPA of less than 3.4 and an lsat greater than 172.

fountino
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Re: Splitter Alert 2.9/165

Postby fountino » Sun Aug 14, 2011 12:12 am

Thanks all for the feedback. I'm not here to debate mine or anyone else's decision to pursue a career in law, rather to gain some insight into the different schools I could possibly attend. I don't think my singular decision makes a marked decision on the market as a whole--sorry. I also dismiss the idea that there are only a very small handful of schools that offer any sort of ROI to its students.

I am interested in a school, within my reach, that has a strong regional presence and good placement in local firms. From what I've seen/heard , a good example of this would be SMU with its strong connections in the Dallas market (a strong legal market not saturated by a half dozen law schools). I'd be interested to hear about any other schools, within my reach, that share a similar profile in another region.

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vanwinkle
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Re: Splitter Alert 2.9/165

Postby vanwinkle » Sun Aug 14, 2011 2:08 am

admisionquestion wrote:I am sick of getting into these fights...

Then you should probably stop picking them, dude.

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HYSnNothingLess
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Re: Splitter Alert 2.9/165

Postby HYSnNothingLess » Sun Aug 14, 2011 9:31 am

Isn't Splitter the rat from Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles? :P


I agree with just about everything admisionquestion said.

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bport hopeful
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Re: Splitter Alert 2.9/165

Postby bport hopeful » Sun Aug 14, 2011 10:35 am

HYSnNothingLess wrote:Isn't Splitter the rat from Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles? :P


I agree with just about everything admisionquestion said.

Splinter, dude. Splinter.

God this makes me hate you even more.

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vanwinkle
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Re: Splitter Alert 2.9/165

Postby vanwinkle » Sun Aug 14, 2011 11:08 am

HYSnNothingLess wrote:I agree with just about everything admisionquestion said.

Okay, that's it. That's just more on-topic trolling than we can take.

Image

Everyone else, you may carry on.

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Samara
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Re: Splitter Alert 2.9/165

Postby Samara » Sun Aug 14, 2011 11:39 am

SMU looks like the credited response here. They are the most splitter-friendly of all the schools you mention and have a strong natural market. Check out my splitter guide for more info: viewtopic.php?f=22&t=162680

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kalvano
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Re: Splitter Alert 2.9/165

Postby kalvano » Sun Aug 14, 2011 11:52 am

The only problem I see with SMU is that our dean is an obnoxious windbag who let the school fall to right on the edge of the T50, and they might try and bump their numbers up significantly next year. They seems to get much less lenient this year than the previous year.

But, that being said, they do seem to let in more than a few sub 3.0 people.

Do the Early Decision program (it's not binding), otherwise you'll be waiting for an answer forever.

admisionquestion
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Re: Splitter Alert 2.9/165

Postby admisionquestion » Sun Aug 14, 2011 12:38 pm

I am trying to give good advice based on the available data. 16% to NLJ from SMU still seems like an insane decision for anyone with such a BAD UG track record.

If you don't want biglaw then the normal reasons why law is a troubled profession stand but maybe SMU is a good choice.

If you want biglaw than its likely a terrible decision still.

Please stop calling me names and shit... I did not call OP any names and only tried to give helpful advice. If you disagree explain why I am wrong... I don't even doubt that there are good counter points to my viewpoint, I just dislike the attitude that "if OP thinks they want to be a lawyer then they should go to law school." because that is obviously not the case.

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vanwinkle
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Re: Splitter Alert 2.9/165

Postby vanwinkle » Sun Aug 14, 2011 12:52 pm

admisionquestion wrote:I did not call OP any names and only tried to give helpful advice.

He was asking about odds of admission, in the "What are my chances?" thread, which is about odds of admission. He wasn't talking about why he wanted to be a lawyer, he was asking about whether he could get into particular schools. Your yelling at him not to go to law school really isn't helpful to him.

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spleenworship
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Re: Splitter Alert 2.9/165

Postby spleenworship » Sun Aug 14, 2011 1:24 pm

admisionquestion wrote:I am sick of getting into these fights...and this will likely be the last one in a while:


Yes, please, stop bringing your elitist doom and gloom bullshit into splitter threads. It will save you stress, and save us having to read your overly negative posts.

admisionquestion wrote:DO NOT GO.


I disagree to some extent. With this GPA and LSAT OP could get strong regionals with money if he applies well. His whole list is decent regional schools, some of which he might get money at. Probably worth applying if OP wants to be a lawyer.

admisionquestion wrote:165 LSAT is reasonable but nothing amazing. 2.9 GPA is absolute trash (as you know).

2.9 is not good, bad in fact, but calling it trash when you have no idea why it happened is rude and unnecessary. And 165 is more than reasonable since it outscores 91-92% of test takers. If this was a first time score it is frankly, quite good. While it won't get OP in the T14, it will make him competitive for good regional schools.

admisionquestion wrote:If you go to a school bad enough to give you money you will have wasted three years, studying hard, without improving your job prospects.


Not true if he is top 10-20%. While you can't guarantee that, fact is that your blanket statement has an ~15% chance of being wrong.

admisionquestion wrote:If you go to the best school you can get into at sticker you will have a 90+ percent chance of having wasted three years, studying hard, without improving your job prospects AND 100K+ additional debt. In the less than 10 percent chance you "succeed" you will work your ass off in hopes of paying off that debt before you burn out of big law. I believe that your a better student than you were in UG but what makes you think you are in the top 10% of the whatever LS you attend?


Um, those best schools often have as much as 50% legal JD required employment, so your numbers here are way too low. Pessimist much?

admisionquestion wrote:Please Please Please for your own sake do not go. If you have to go, then please please go to somewhere you can get a scholarship, so you at least can have only wasted 3 years...


OP wanted chancing, not your opinion.

admisionquestion wrote:ALSO: By going you hurt everyone else. You further saturate the market and make it harder for everyone. Obviously everyone has an equal right to go so that should not be a real concern to anyone. But, it does add a final slap in the face to the whole thing. You will be ruining your own life and making the lives of several thousand people .001% more difficult.


First off, if OP doesn't go someone else will take his/her place, so saying OP will hurt everyone else is a dumb premise. Blame the non-regional T3 and the T4s of the world for this, not someone looking at decent T2s.

Secondly this is possibly the jerkiest thing I have read on TLS for a while. Trying to guilt OP into not going is passive aggressive, mean, and stupid.


ETA: To the OP- your "also interested" list should be targets, you have a decent chance. Your "interested" list should be your reaches. Pick some safeties as well and then apply. You should get into 3-8 schools and hopefully be able to negotiate a scholly.

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bport hopeful
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Re: Splitter Alert 2.9/165

Postby bport hopeful » Sun Aug 14, 2011 1:27 pm

spleenworship wrote:
admisionquestion wrote:I am sick of getting into these fights...and this will likely be the last one in a while:


Yes, please, stop bringing your elitist doom and gloom bullshit into splitter threads. It will save you stress, and save us having to read your overly negative posts.

admisionquestion wrote:DO NOT GO.


I disagree to some extent. With this GPA and LSAT OP could get strong regionals with money if he applies well. His whole list is decent regional schools, some of which he might get money at. Probably worth applying if OP wants to be a lawyer.

admisionquestion wrote:165 LSAT is reasonable but nothing amazing. 2.9 GPA is absolute trash (as you know).

2.9 is not good, bad in fact, but calling it trash when you have no idea why it happened is rude and unnecessary. And 165 is more than reasonable since it outscores 91-92% of test takers. If this was a first time score it is frankly, quite good. While it won't get OP in the T14, it will make him competitive for good regional schools.

admisionquestion wrote:If you go to a school bad enough to give you money you will have wasted three years, studying hard, without improving your job prospects.


Not true if he is top 10-20%. While you can't guarantee that, fact is that your blanket statement has an ~15% chance of being wrong.

admisionquestion wrote:If you go to the best school you can get into at sticker you will have a 90+ percent chance of having wasted three years, studying hard, without improving your job prospects AND 100K+ additional debt. In the less than 10 percent chance you "succeed" you will work your ass off in hopes of paying off that debt before you burn out of big law. I believe that your a better student than you were in UG but what makes you think you are in the top 10% of the whatever LS you attend?


Um, those best schools often have as much as 50% legal JD required employment, so your numbers here are way too low. Pessimist much?

admisionquestion wrote:Please Please Please for your own sake do not go. If you have to go, then please please go to somewhere you can get a scholarship, so you at least can have only wasted 3 years...


OP wanted chancing, not your opinion.

admisionquestion wrote:ALSO: By going you hurt everyone else. You further saturate the market and make it harder for everyone. Obviously everyone has an equal right to go so that should not be a real concern to anyone. But, it does add a final slap in the face to the whole thing. You will be ruining your own life and making the lives of several thousand people .001% more difficult.


First off, if OP doesn't go someone else will take his/her place, so saying OP will hurt everyone else is a dumb premise. Blame the non-regional T3 and the T4s of the world for this, not someone looking at decent T2s.

Secondly this is possibly the jerkiest thing I have read on TLS for a while. Trying to guilt OP into not going is passive aggressive, mean, and stupid.

Not to mention ignorant. Thanks for breaking that down, this threads been irking me for a day or so.

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Kabuo
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Re: Splitter Alert 2.9/165

Postby Kabuo » Sun Aug 14, 2011 3:27 pm

Thanks to Spleenworship for taking the time to spell out how stupid that post was.

OP, do you feel you maxed out on the LSAT? If you do, that's fine. 165 is pretty good, and plenty good enough to get you into a school that will have a decent to good shot of landing you legal employment. It was also what I got on my first LSAT though, and I know I majorly underachieved. If you think you can improve at all, you really should give it a shot. 168 (maybe 167 next year) makes WUSTL a lock with money.

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Hopefully2012
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Re: Splitter Alert 2.9/165

Postby Hopefully2012 » Sun Aug 14, 2011 4:30 pm

Kabuo wrote:168 (maybe 167 next year) makes WUSTL a lock with money.


Disagree, at least not with OP's 2.9 GPA. Where do you get your data from?




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