Conflicted about what to do

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RefleX
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Conflicted about what to do

Postby RefleX » Tue Aug 09, 2011 9:24 pm

I had planned all along (since about 2006) to attend law school but didn't do stellar due to some issues and whatnot that I let get out of control. My cumulative (or real, can't remember the difference) GPA is a 2.81 and my first and last LSAT (Dec 2010) was a 161. I was planning on applying to Rutgers Camden but decided against it due to the economic downturn and all of the scares going on with people not landing jobs and whatnot. I became pretty hopeless for a couple months but am in the process of turning my life around (getting in great shape, really pushing the accelerator down.) I know if I practice hard enough I can hit above a 170 but I'm not even sure it'd be worth it considering my GPA. I think I'd be a longshot at Northwestern with 173+ but I'm running out of options (just turned 24). I'm just torn over the whole situation, I'm sure a lot of us out there feel the same way. Basically what I'm asking is it really T-14 or bust or can you make it if you get accepted by a close to T-14 school? I don't mean to beat a dead horse but....yea sorry.

schooner
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Re: Conflicted about what to do

Postby schooner » Tue Aug 09, 2011 9:29 pm

What do you want to do with a law degree?

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zozin
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Re: Conflicted about what to do

Postby zozin » Tue Aug 09, 2011 9:31 pm

It's not T14 or bust, there's a bunch of great schools between 15-30, they're just more regional. Your chances for Big Law do go down precipitously the further down the list you go. But talking about T14 or T30 in your case doesn't make much sense without another LSAT score. Come back in Oct. with an greatly improved score and you can figure out your options then.

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NYCbound35
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Re: Conflicted about what to do

Postby NYCbound35 » Tue Aug 09, 2011 9:37 pm

I had a 2.9 GPA and got a 162 on my first shot on the LSAT, despite PTing much higher. I read about all of the problems with the legal field and realized that the schools that would take me with those numbers were just not worth going to. I retook the LSAT and got a 169, getting me acceptances to WUSTL, ND and Fordham. You are in an even better spot with a couple years of work experience under your belt. Study up for the LSAT and take it again for 170+. If you don't get that score, take it a third time. 24 is not that old to take 1 more year off. I would have taken two years to work and retake for Northwestern if it weren't for my NY being the only market I'm interested in and living at home for Fordham (to save COL).

For you, the worst case scenario is that you do not do better. You get a year to earn $ and reevaluate your desires. Not to mention waiting one more year for the legal job market to improve. You'd still get into the same schools with a 161 as a (161, 15x, 15x)

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Rock-N-Roll
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Re: Conflicted about what to do

Postby Rock-N-Roll » Tue Aug 09, 2011 9:45 pm

Yes. It would be worth your while to try and achieve 173+. If you did, as far as I can tell from my studies of LSN and chatter on this site, even with your GPA NW and Gtown would be in play, UCLA and UT, and maybe even UVA (although granted the T14 will still not be a total cakewalk with that GPA but possible).

Plus if you went out of the T-14 with a 173+ you'd be offered scholarship money.

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Grizz
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Re: Conflicted about what to do

Postby Grizz » Tue Aug 09, 2011 9:49 pm

Rock-N-Roll wrote:Yes. It would be worth your while to try and achieve 173+. If you did, as far as I can tell from my studies of LSN and chatter on this site, even with your GPA NW and Gtown would be in play, UCLA and UT, and maybe even UVA (although granted the T14 will still not be a total cakewalk with that GPA but possible).

Plus if you went out of the T-14 with a 173+ you'd be offered scholarship money.


lol wut? UT, UCLA, and Vandy are all out with a 2.81. Also UVA ED is out with 2.81.

Best T14 shot is >170 LSAT + work experience + ED NW

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Rock-N-Roll
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Re: Conflicted about what to do

Postby Rock-N-Roll » Tue Aug 09, 2011 10:11 pm

Grizz wrote:
Rock-N-Roll wrote:Yes. It would be worth your while to try and achieve 173+. If you did, as far as I can tell from my studies of LSN and chatter on this site, even with your GPA NW and Gtown would be in play, UCLA and UT, and maybe even UVA (although granted the T14 will still not be a total cakewalk with that GPA but possible).

Plus if you went out of the T-14 with a 173+ you'd be offered scholarship money.


lol wut? UT, UCLA, and Vandy are all out with a 2.81. Also UVA ED is out with 2.81.

Best T14 shot is >170 LSAT + work experience + ED NW


First I'm talking about OP getting a 173+ and my source for those schools is LSP which popped out a weak consider for all them. I know we're all supposed to take LSP with a grain of salt but my point is that a 173+ is a game changer at a lot of good schools thanks to USNWR.

I agree UVA is probably out and I probably shouldn't have thrown it in, but there is definitely a UVA ED boost so who knows. Worth an application there (assuming the 173+).

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Grizz
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Re: Conflicted about what to do

Postby Grizz » Tue Aug 09, 2011 10:13 pm

Rock-N-Roll wrote:
Grizz wrote:
Rock-N-Roll wrote:Yes. It would be worth your while to try and achieve 173+. If you did, as far as I can tell from my studies of LSN and chatter on this site, even with your GPA NW and Gtown would be in play, UCLA and UT, and maybe even UVA (although granted the T14 will still not be a total cakewalk with that GPA but possible).

Plus if you went out of the T-14 with a 173+ you'd be offered scholarship money.


lol wut? UT, UCLA, and Vandy are all out with a 2.81. Also UVA ED is out with 2.81.

Best T14 shot is >170 LSAT + work experience + ED NW


My source for those is LSP which popped out a weak consider for all those schools. I know we're all supposed to take LSP with a grain of salt but my point is that a 173+ is a game changer at a lot of good schools thanks to USNWR.

I agree UVA is probably out and I probably shouldn't have thrown it in, but there is definitely a UVA ED boost.


UCLA is a GPA whore, UT has a 3.5 floor, Vandy has a barely permeable 3.3 floor (generally only broken for engineering types). UVA ED needs 3.0 GPA. Exceptions are sometimes made for people with like a 2.98. 173 isn't a game changer for these schools.

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Rock-N-Roll
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Re: Conflicted about what to do

Postby Rock-N-Roll » Tue Aug 09, 2011 10:21 pm

Grizz wrote:
Rock-N-Roll wrote:
Grizz wrote:
Rock-N-Roll wrote:Yes. It would be worth your while to try and achieve 173+. If you did, as far as I can tell from my studies of LSN and chatter on this site, even with your GPA NW and Gtown would be in play, UCLA and UT, and maybe even UVA (although granted the T14 will still not be a total cakewalk with that GPA but possible).

Plus if you went out of the T-14 with a 173+ you'd be offered scholarship money.


lol wut? UT, UCLA, and Vandy are all out with a 2.81. Also UVA ED is out with 2.81.

Best T14 shot is >170 LSAT + work experience + ED NW


My source for those is LSP which popped out a weak consider for all those schools. I know we're all supposed to take LSP with a grain of salt but my point is that a 173+ is a game changer at a lot of good schools thanks to USNWR.

I agree UVA is probably out and I probably shouldn't have thrown it in, but there is definitely a UVA ED boost.


UCLA is a GPA whore, UT has a 3.5 floor, Vandy has a barely permeable 3.3 floor (generally only broken for engineering types). UVA ED needs 3.0 GPA. Exceptions are sometimes made for people with like a 2.98. 173 isn't a game changer for these schools.


I've seen people post those numbers before, but I don't know. None of us really know what happens behind the curtain of law school admissions, and I'd take a more optimistic stance on OP's chances with a 173+ based on what I saw in my cycle.

Although strangely enough, if you asked me my personal opinion as to whether OP should get into the T14 with a 2.8 gpa, I'd say no. GPA represents academic achievement across four years of higher education and a 2.8 shouldn't get you into an elite law school no matter what your LSAT is. My two cents.

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Grizz
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Re: Conflicted about what to do

Postby Grizz » Tue Aug 09, 2011 10:24 pm

Rock-N-Roll wrote:I've seen people post those numbers before, but I don't know. None of us really know what happens behind the curtain of law school admissions, and I'd take a more optimistic stance on OP's chances with a 173+ based on what I saw in my cycle.


These have been pretty hard and fast rules the last few cycles. Maybe it will be different this time. Worth the apps, but those schools aren't really targets. They're hard reaches.

Although strangely enough, if you asked me my personal opinion as to whether OP should get into the T14 with a 2.8 gpa, I'd say no. GPA represents academic achievement across four years of higher education and a 2.8 shouldn't get you into an elite law school no matter what your LSAT is. My two cents.

Interesting.

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Rock-N-Roll
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Re: Conflicted about what to do

Postby Rock-N-Roll » Tue Aug 09, 2011 10:40 pm

Grizz wrote:
Although strangely enough, if you asked me my personal opinion as to whether OP should get into the T14 with a 2.8 gpa, I'd say no. GPA represents academic achievement across four years of higher education and a 2.8 shouldn't get you into an elite law school no matter what your LSAT is. My two cents.

Interesting.


I totally accept it. Law school admissions is what it is.

Although in my mind a paradox exists: How can any elite school truly provide its graduates the cloak of real prestige when most of them use such few and rather unsubstantial criteria to determine who gets accepted and is thus worthy of having that prestige? Add the ridiculous influence of the USNWR and it all becomes farce to me.

Trolling disclaimer: Boalt is different in my opinion. :)

RefleX
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Re: Conflicted about what to do

Postby RefleX » Wed Aug 10, 2011 2:02 am

Thanks for all of the responses. I don't have any legal work experience as of now either, I figured it would have made more sense to retake and see if I can get the score, then do work experience than vice versa.

RefleX
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Re: Conflicted about what to do

Postby RefleX » Wed Aug 10, 2011 2:05 am

schooner wrote:What do you want to do with a law degree?


Are you asking which field of law or if I plan on actually being a lawyer with it?

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NYC Law
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Re: Conflicted about what to do

Postby NYC Law » Wed Aug 10, 2011 2:11 am

RefleX wrote:Thanks for all of the responses. I don't have any legal work experience as of now either, I figured it would have made more sense to retake and see if I can get the score, then do work experience than vice versa.


You dont need legal work experience, just post college experience working. Good luck man, I know times are tough.

RefleX
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Re: Conflicted about what to do

Postby RefleX » Wed Aug 10, 2011 2:14 am

NYC Law wrote:
RefleX wrote:Thanks for all of the responses. I don't have any legal work experience as of now either, I figured it would have made more sense to retake and see if I can get the score, then do work experience than vice versa.


You dont need legal work experience, just post college experience working. Good luck man, I know times are tough.



Thanks for the clarification. I know NW is business oriented (what I wanted to do anyway) so I figure if I have a chance I'll pick up a job at a company and go from there. Luck isn't on my side EVER so I have to win this by brute force.

lawgod
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Re: Conflicted about what to do

Postby lawgod » Wed Aug 10, 2011 2:16 am

Rock-N-Roll wrote:I totally accept it. Law school admissions is what it is.

Although in my mind a paradox exists: How can any elite school truly provide its graduates the cloak of real prestige when most of them use such few and rather unsubstantial criteria to determine who gets accepted and is thus worthy of having that prestige? Add the ridiculous influence of the USNWR and it all becomes farce to me.

Trolling disclaimer: Boalt is different in my opinion. :)


I don't know. I'm more concerned with the product they put out than the one they take in.
IF the elite schools are producing an elite product, then whatever criteria they choose in selecting who they take shouldn't affect anything.

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Rock-N-Roll
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Re: Conflicted about what to do

Postby Rock-N-Roll » Sat Aug 13, 2011 5:54 am

lawgod wrote:
I don't know. I'm more concerned with the product they put out than the one they take in.
IF the elite schools are producing an elite product, then whatever criteria they choose in selecting who they take shouldn't affect anything.


Well the impression I got is that law schools pretty much offer the exact same education from Y all the way down through the TTT. So I would disagree that they are producing elite attorneys at elite schools. There is only a perception of this because graduates of elite schools have more and better opportunities than graduates of other schools especially the TTT.

Medical school prestige, for example, is measured by the school's contribution to research as well as the caliber of care that its associated medical center provides. Where does law school prestige come from? What are the markers and measures?

Faceplant
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Re: Conflicted about what to do

Postby Faceplant » Sat Aug 13, 2011 9:35 am

Grizz wrote:UCLA is a LSAT whore.................173 is a game changer for this school.

FTFY

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IAFG
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Re: Conflicted about what to do

Postby IAFG » Sat Aug 13, 2011 9:41 am

Rock-N-Roll wrote:Although strangely enough, if you asked me my personal opinion as to whether OP should get into the T14 with a 2.8 gpa, I'd say no. GPA represents academic achievement across four years of higher education and a 2.8 shouldn't get you into an elite law school no matter what your LSAT is. My two cents

I know a few V5 firms and federal judges who are glad that at least Northwestern admissions thinks you're wrong. Maybe if you haven't accomplished anything more impressive than an LSAT score since getting that sub-3.0 GPA I would agree with you, but I just don't get why anyone would be punished/rewarded forever for shit they did as a 19 year old.

09042014
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Re: Conflicted about what to do

Postby 09042014 » Sat Aug 13, 2011 12:54 pm

As someone who got into what some would call an elite school, with a 2.8, I kind of agree that I shouldn't have been able too. But, there should have been some way to redeem yourself. Either by taking some master's classes or by doing great work in other fields.

Let's be honest though, undergrad is a cake walk. And liberal arts programs shouldn't even be called education.

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Rock-N-Roll
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Re: Conflicted about what to do

Postby Rock-N-Roll » Sat Aug 13, 2011 6:37 pm

Desert Fox wrote: But, there should have been some way to redeem yourself. Either by taking some master's classes or by doing great work in other fields.


I totally do agree with this. Unfortunately in law school admissions, graduate work does not count, and there is no post-baccalaureate like there is for med school.

I would say that it would generally behoove everyone if all law schools where more holistic (than they seem to be) in determining admissions.

RefleX
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Re: Conflicted about what to do

Postby RefleX » Tue Aug 16, 2011 8:50 pm

Thanks again for the chatter, definitely learning. Within the next few days I'll be setting up my attack strategy, possibly getting a different RC book and going from there.

AffordablePrep
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Re: Conflicted about what to do

Postby AffordablePrep » Tue Aug 16, 2011 9:24 pm

You don't need to go to a top 14 to be successful. Going to a 15-30 is still much better than Rutgers. You're only 24. If you're 24 and in great shape/health life can't be that bad. It isn't like doing nothing when you're 27, out of law school and unemployed with a belly from 3 yrs of studying all day. That'd be much worse so why not just go to a school where most of your friends won't be jobless?




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