Penn ED?

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anthony55
Posts: 13
Joined: Sun May 24, 2009 12:54 am

Penn ED?

Postby anthony55 » Mon Aug 08, 2011 4:03 pm

Hi all

I'm applying to LS this fall. My application materials are all complete for LSAC, including recs, and my essays are written.
I will be applying on the first day that applications open (usually Sep. 1)

My quick stats are 3.73 GPA and 168 LSAT.
(Not retaking LSAT, as 168-9 was the highest I ever scored on a PT.)
Softs are probably average (worked two jobs throughout UG, leadership positions, summer legal internship).

I've been primarily interested in Cornell (EA) and Georgetown (ED) thus far.
I will apply to Cornell on Sep. 1 via EA. For what it's worth I am from NY and am submitting a gay-themed DS.
I know that many discourage applying ED because it prevents you from considering scholarship offers, but I'm currently inclined to apply ED to Georgetown on Oct. 1 in order to give me a fair shot there. In terms of location, I much prefer DC to Ithaca, and since both Cornell and Georgetown are toward the bottom of the "T14" I figure that prospects coming out of these two schools will be roughly similar. (I would like to try for biglaw for a few years.)

However, I've recently been debating whether I should forgo applying ED to Georgetown in favor of applying ED to Penn. I would like to know if people think I would have a reasonable (50+% shot) at Penn. The main reaons I'm wondering about ED to Penn are:

-I just graduated from Penn UG, and wonder if I would have any slight advantage having gone to Penn undergrad.
-I am submitting a (fairly unique and poignant, I think) diversity statement about a boy who inspired me to come out and how I now seek to inspire others through advocacy of LGBT issues. The reason I bring this up is because I know that Penn is very gay-friendly, and wonder if, again, this would provide any slight advantage that could tip the scale in my favor.

Additionally, my GPA had a significant upward trend, from 3.3 (freshman) to 3.7 (soph) to 3.9 (junior) to 4.0 (senior), if that matters at all.

Anyway, thanks for listening to my story -- please let me know, especially if anyone was in a similar situation, what you think of my potential for Penn ED. If it'll most likely result in a deferral/WL, I'll probably ED to Georgetown, as I'm not concerned about paying "sticker" and would much prefer to live/work/settle down in the DC area than almost any other.

Thanks.

HeavenWood
Posts: 2915
Joined: Wed Jul 28, 2010 6:42 pm

Re: Penn ED?

Postby HeavenWood » Wed Aug 10, 2011 10:47 am

You're below both medians. Without URM status, this is almost certainly a killer. You should be secure for Cornell EA, however. I would advise against EDing to Georgetown unless you're comfortable paying sticker and have a good reasoning for preferring it over Cornell.

anthony55
Posts: 13
Joined: Sun May 24, 2009 12:54 am

Re: Penn ED?

Postby anthony55 » Thu Aug 11, 2011 12:05 pm

Damn, I thought I actually had a chance at Penn ED, considering I'm applying in September, with a gay-themed DS (Penn loves its gays), and as a recent graduate of Penn UG (Penn loves its UGs).

Does anyone have any recommendations, in general?
Besides EAing to Cornell, I'd like to at least apply to a higher-ranked school (a "reach") ... I would be fine with using my ED on one of them, but which? Based on the information about me in my post, would applying early / ED give me a fighting shot at any particular school(s) in the top ten?

Thanks.

lawyerwannabe
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Joined: Sun Aug 08, 2010 10:39 pm

Re: Penn ED?

Postby lawyerwannabe » Thu Aug 11, 2011 2:35 pm

Best chance at a "T10" would be to ED UMich or Duke.

anthony55
Posts: 13
Joined: Sun May 24, 2009 12:54 am

Re: Penn ED?

Postby anthony55 » Thu Aug 11, 2011 6:22 pm

Shucks, alright. I guess I'll rethink Penn ED.

According to LSN, some kids with 167 and 3.8s made Penn ED, so I thought I'd have a fighting chance (40%+, which is worth the risk, IMO) considering I'm Penn UG and gay DS... Maybe I'll try it after all. As a New Yorker and someone who wants to stay in the Northeast, I'd probably choose Cornell over Michigan and Duke anyway. Although I'm not a big fan of Cornell's location, I think it would offer better chances at biglaw than Duke and Georgetown. Not sure about vs. Michigan, but I don't feel too comfortable EDing there. Maybe it was unusually high, but Cornell's biglaw placement this past year was great.

lawyerwannabe
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Re: Penn ED?

Postby lawyerwannabe » Thu Aug 11, 2011 6:31 pm

anthony55 wrote:Shucks, alright. I guess I'll rethink Penn ED.

According to LSN, some kids with 167 and 3.8s made Penn ED, so I thought I'd have a fighting chance (40%+, which is worth the risk, IMO) considering I'm Penn UG and gay DS... Maybe I'll try it after all. As a New Yorker and someone who wants to stay in the Northeast, I'd probably choose Cornell over Michigan and Duke anyway. Although I'm not a big fan of Cornell's location, I think it would offer better chances at biglaw than Duke and Georgetown. Not sure about vs. Michigan, but I don't feel too comfortable EDing there. Maybe it was unusually high, but Cornell's biglaw placement this past year was great.


if by BigLaw you mean NLJ250: Duke = Cornell = Michigan (for the most part; last year's stats are misleading but you will see that this is the case if you take a more historical perspective)

if by BigLaw you mean Vault 100: Duke > Cornell = Michigan (this is from information on this site talking about their placement recently as well as the only statistical link I could find - http://lawfirmaddict.blogspot.com/2006/ ... ement.html ; yes, I know it is from 2006 but that was neither the best year nor the worst year and many law schools are heading back to towards those numbers [e.g. Duke placed about 55% of its summer class into V100])

hth.

anthony55
Posts: 13
Joined: Sun May 24, 2009 12:54 am

Re: Penn ED?

Postby anthony55 » Thu Aug 11, 2011 6:51 pm

Okay, thanks for the info. Based on that data, seems like Duke is best of Cornell and Michigan for biglaw, though I know they took quite a hit based on NLJ250 data last year, which makes me a bit wary. Though data from 2006 does as well... I guess they're all *roughly* comparable.

If I'm not mistaken, Duke has an ED round 2 in December/January?
Maybe I can apply ED to Penn, and if deferred, consider applying ED to Duke. Ugh, I'm so unsure!

HeavenWood
Posts: 2915
Joined: Wed Jul 28, 2010 6:42 pm

Re: Penn ED?

Postby HeavenWood » Fri Aug 12, 2011 12:07 am

anthony55 wrote:Shucks, alright. I guess I'll rethink Penn ED.

According to LSN, some kids with 167 and 3.8s made Penn ED, so I thought I'd have a fighting chance (40%+, which is worth the risk, IMO) considering I'm Penn UG and gay DS... Maybe I'll try it after all. As a New Yorker and someone who wants to stay in the Northeast, I'd probably choose Cornell over Michigan and Duke anyway. Although I'm not a big fan of Cornell's location, I think it would offer better chances at biglaw than Duke and Georgetown. Not sure about vs. Michigan, but I don't feel too comfortable EDing there. Maybe it was unusually high, but Cornell's biglaw placement this past year was great.


Everyone non-URM candidate who was accepted ED last cycle (and the cycle before) was at/above at least one median (clickhere). Back in the day, being a Penn alumnus was a detriment when applying to the law school, but maybe that's changed. A gay DS could push you over the hump if you were borderline, but both your LSAT and GPA are noticeably below the medians. IMO, you're better off using your ED elsewhere.

anthony55
Posts: 13
Joined: Sun May 24, 2009 12:54 am

Re: Penn ED?

Postby anthony55 » Fri Aug 12, 2011 2:07 am

I know that mean and median are different, but it's weird b/c the GPA 25th-75th % is 3.54-3.9 ... the middle of those numbers is 3.72, though Penn reports their median as 3.8. I have a feeling the exact median is something in the 3.7's that rounds to 3.8 (e.g. 3.76), which would put me a bit closer to it, but yeah I hear you, I'm obviously a tad below the GPA and LSAT medians, though I think I'm about at the means (again the LSAT 25th-75th % is 166-171, with the median reported as 170... mean is likely a tad lower). Anyway, no sense in trying to delude/instill false optimism...

I guess it also doesn't matter that my cumulative GPA w/o freshman year is 3.85 ... grr. I was hoping huge upward grade trend would help me, but I guess it's more of a nonfactor.

Maybe my ED would work better at, say, Michigan, but I'd even choose Cornell over Michigan due to location (staying in NY would be a plus for me rather than going to the MW), so I don't wanna lock myself in at Mich. Ditto with Duke (which is actually not a T10, at least not currently, and I don't know if Duke grads' prospects have been good enough as of late to justify EDing there). Ugh.

Real Madrid
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Joined: Mon May 30, 2011 12:21 am

Re: Penn ED?

Postby Real Madrid » Fri Aug 12, 2011 2:33 am

anthony55 wrote:I know that mean and median are different, but it's weird b/c the GPA 25th-75th % is 3.54-3.9 ... the middle of those numbers is 3.72, though Penn reports their median as 3.8. I have a feeling the exact median is something in the 3.7's that rounds to 3.8 (e.g. 3.76), which would put me a bit closer to it, but yeah I hear you, I'm obviously a tad below the GPA and LSAT medians, though I think I'm about at the means (again the LSAT 25th-75th % is 166-171, with the median reported as 170... mean is likely a tad lower). Anyway, no sense in trying to delude/instill false optimism...

I guess it also doesn't matter that my cumulative GPA w/o freshman year is 3.85 ... grr. I was hoping huge upward grade trend would help me, but I guess it's more of a nonfactor.

Maybe my ED would work better at, say, Michigan, but I'd even choose Cornell over Michigan due to location (staying in NY would be a plus for me rather than going to the MW), so I don't wanna lock myself in at Mich. Ditto with Duke (which is actually not a T10, at least not currently, and I don't know if Duke grads' prospects have been good enough as of late to justify EDing there). Ugh.


First, Penn's GPA median is 3.85, not 3.8. So I'm not quite sure how that could be rounded up from the 3.7s. And even if it was a 3.8, you're still below it. In fact, you're more than a tenth of a point below it, so I wouldn't consider that being "slightly" below the median at all - that's significantly below the median.

Secondly, the mean doesn't matter, because the mean is more easily affected by outliers (e.g. URMs with numbers well under median that you will not be competing against).

And finally, no, your cumulative GPA without freshman year does not matter.

All that aside, you should use your ED how you want. If Penn really is your dream school, the worst they can do is say no.

anthony55
Posts: 13
Joined: Sun May 24, 2009 12:54 am

Re: Penn ED?

Postby anthony55 » Fri Aug 12, 2011 3:42 pm

Okay, I guess we'll see! I'll continue to give it some thought -- seems like I change my mind every week! I'd certainly be happy with Cornell and I think it would allow me to get my foot in the door for a lot great opportunities. Not sure about the location, as I'm more of a big city person, but who knows! Happy to have Penn listed as my UG institution, too. :)

Thanks, all!




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