170 LSAT, 4.0 GPA--where to apply?

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glitched
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Re: 170 LSAT, 4.0 GPA--where to apply?

Postby glitched » Fri Jul 22, 2011 1:27 pm

Dany wrote:Did you read any of the thread? OP is not retaking and they are not a URM that gets an appreciable boost.


I think it's quite obvious I didn't read the thread... thank you very much. lol but no - i mean just bc OP says he's not retaking doesn't mean I can't give him the advice/reasoning to retake.


And to OP, I got into NYU. And since you probably care about what happened to me with Columbia too, I got waitlisted twice (they have a first reserve, second reserve, etc. system) and then rejected.

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swampthang
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Re: 170 LSAT, 4.0 GPA--where to apply?

Postby swampthang » Fri Jul 22, 2011 1:48 pm

Where to apply or where to expect to get in? Apply everywhere, with the expectations of getting in everywhere up through Chicago. Columbia is a big LSAT whore, but your GPA is high enough that an early application could do some good. HYS are all possible, but reaches. Play up the Dominican parentage ('URM' or not, still something that could boost your application) and prepare yourself to spend 3 years with a bunch of other History majors.

Hatred for the LSAT aside (who doesn't??), a point or two (or even three!) would make a HUGE difference for your application. A 4.0/170 gets small change at NYU; a 4.0/173 is competitive for real cash. Just sayin'.

Bumi
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Re: 170 LSAT, 4.0 GPA--where to apply?

Postby Bumi » Fri Jul 22, 2011 1:50 pm

el_ladron wrote:Nope, not URM, just half Dominican. I'm cool with it though, African Americans, Mexicans, and Puerto Ricans are all much larger populations that blazed the trail in civil rights for other people of color. I think the URM boost should only be applied to those groups (for now at least).


Regarding your Dominican background, I thought we were only sure that that wasn't in the definition of URM for Michigan, and that we did not have hard evidence that other schools are not more permissive of their definition of which kinds of hispanic backgrounds counted as URM. If you wrote a diversity statement, I think it could be persuasive. But if you would like to conceal your background from law schools, go ahead. Seems silly to me.

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emciosn
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Re: 170 LSAT, 4.0 GPA--where to apply?

Postby emciosn » Fri Jul 22, 2011 1:54 pm

Bumi wrote:
el_ladron wrote:Nope, not URM, just half Dominican. I'm cool with it though, African Americans, Mexicans, and Puerto Ricans are all much larger populations that blazed the trail in civil rights for other people of color. I think the URM boost should only be applied to those groups (for now at least).


Regarding your Dominican background, I thought we were only sure that that wasn't in the definition of URM for Michigan, and that we did not have hard evidence that other schools are not more permissive of their definition of which kinds of hispanic backgrounds counted as URM. If you wrote a diversity statement, I think it could be persuasive. But if you would like to conceal your background from law schools, go ahead. Seems silly to me.


Yeah, even if you don't get a huge boost, I think writing a diversity statement would help at least a little, especially at the places where you are right on the line.

el_ladron
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Re: 170 LSAT, 4.0 GPA--where to apply?

Postby el_ladron » Fri Jul 22, 2011 1:55 pm

Bumi wrote:
el_ladron wrote:Nope, not URM, just half Dominican. I'm cool with it though, African Americans, Mexicans, and Puerto Ricans are all much larger populations that blazed the trail in civil rights for other people of color. I think the URM boost should only be applied to those groups (for now at least).


Regarding your Dominican background, I thought we were only sure that that wasn't in the definition of URM for Michigan, and that we did not have hard evidence that other schools are not more permissive of their definition of which kinds of hispanic backgrounds counted as URM. If you wrote a diversity statement, I think it could be persuasive. But if you would like to conceal your background from law schools, go ahead. Seems silly to me.


I haven't read that Michigan is the only school to use such a narrow definition for URM, but I'm new to all of this, so you could be right. I'm not going to hide my Dominican heritage, never have. I agree, the DS sounds like a good idea, regardless of URM boosts.

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Samara
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Re: 170 LSAT, 4.0 GPA--where to apply?

Postby Samara » Fri Jul 22, 2011 1:57 pm

el_ladron wrote:
Samara wrote:
el_ladron wrote:Nope, not a flame. I didn't really use that predictor site because I read somewhere that their numbers are based on previous cycles. Wanted advice from people familiar with how the '10-'11 cycle panned out for people with similar numbers.

:wink: All right all right, not a flame. It sounds like you think LSP is wildly inaccurate though. Why is that? Why do you think the most recent cycle is more indicative?

You say your numbers are very low for Columbia/NYU, but your LSAT is still at and above, respectively, their 25%, so with a GPA like that, you're in a strong position.

To more helpfully answer your question though, I know someone this past cycle with numbers similar to yours who got in at Yale and $$$ at T6.


Everything I have heard about Columbia/NYU is that they're HUGE on the LSAT, to a much greater degree than GPA. I would think that to have a good shot with only a 25th percentile LSAT I would have to have pretty impressive softs.

What was your Yale friend's story? Did they pen a bestseller? Btw, great avatar, glad Leon is back

Thanks! Leon was a much needed injection of hilarity for that show.

No, my friend didn't write a bestseller. Double major from a T60 undergrad, one in a liberal arts field, one in what would probably be grouped into hard science. 2 years WE in NYC for a solo practice. Probably some assorted scholarships and stuff, but I don't know of any other softs. Similar diversity status to yours. So, basically, you'll be fine at NYU and an excellent chance at HYSC.

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TheKingintheNorth
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Re: 170 LSAT, 4.0 GPA--where to apply?

Postby TheKingintheNorth » Fri Jul 22, 2011 2:04 pm

The real research you should be doing is "NYU or Columbia?" That's a pretty tough call, especially if you aren't glamoured by the latter's layman's prestige.

You're going to want to fill out apps for HYS because there's no reason not to, and you may change your mind about them; but your second chief concern should be $$$, and for that reason you are gonna want to apply to Chicago and MVP (and perhaps the rest of the T14/15). Refer to TLS' great threads on scholarship negotiating to find out exactly why youre gonna want those options even though you have no plans to pursue them.

With $$$ at the NYC schools things get a bit trickier since you're a slight splitter. For example, though you have a better chance than me of getting into HYS and probably even CCN, I doubt you'll get as much money as NYU offered me because you're below 50% on one of their numbers. Softs get you into these top schools--and you'll get in, trust us--but it's a number's game when it comes to the money they throw at you. If MVP throws 30 a year at you, though, you can probably get NYU and CLS to match half of that with a few emails.

el_ladron
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Re: 170 LSAT, 4.0 GPA--where to apply?

Postby el_ladron » Fri Jul 22, 2011 2:19 pm

TheKingintheNorth wrote:The real research you should be doing is "NYU or Columbia?" That's a pretty tough call, especially if you aren't glamoured by the latter's layman's prestige.

You're going to want to fill out apps for HYS because there's no reason not to, and you may change your mind about them; but your second chief concern should be $$$, and for that reason you are gonna want to apply to Chicago and MVP (and perhaps the rest of the T14/15). Refer to TLS' great threads on scholarship negotiating to find out exactly why youre gonna want those options even though you have no plans to pursue them.

With $$$ at the NYC schools things get a bit trickier since you're a slight splitter. For example, though you have a better chance than me of getting into HYS and probably even CCN, I doubt you'll get as much money as NYU offered me because you're below 50% on one of their numbers. Softs get you into these top schools--and you'll get in, trust us--but it's a number's game when it comes to the money they throw at you. If MVP throws 30 a year at you, though, you can probably get NYU and CLS to match half of that with a few emails.


I'm definitely not enamored with "Ivy" names. Been there, done that for UG. I am rankings-conscious though just because the economy isn't really sustaining all these new JDs.

One of the reasons why I am drawn to both NYU/Columbia is the savings of living at home (would be a short ride downtown on the 1 train to get to Columbia) and surviving on tuna fish/ramen. Money becomes a much bigger factor for me once I leave NYC. Still, I don't want to risk attending something outside of the T-14 (even with a ton of $) and not being in the top 10-15% of my class... Times are too hard for that.

el_ladron
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Re: 170 LSAT, 4.0 GPA--where to apply?

Postby el_ladron » Fri Jul 22, 2011 5:58 pm

Just wondering, would Cornell be a target/likely admit with my stats? I know things can get unpredictable in the top 10... Just wondering about Cornell so I can gauge my safeties (even outside the T-14)... What would be some good safeties?

sven
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Re: 170 LSAT, 4.0 GPA--where to apply?

Postby sven » Fri Jul 22, 2011 6:04 pm

el_ladron wrote:Just wondering, would Cornell be a target/likely admit with my stats? I know things can get unpredictable in the top 10... Just wondering about Cornell so I can gauge my safeties (even outside the T-14)... What would be some good safeties?


Please stop worrying. You'll get into Cornell with plenty of money. And you have no need to apply to schools outside of the T-14. (Edited to be more polite)

brownpride
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Re: 170 LSAT, 4.0 GPA--where to apply?

Postby brownpride » Fri Jul 22, 2011 7:21 pm

Man, you REALLY need to stop worrying. Let me break the entire thing down for you so you stop stressing yourself and focus on enjoying your last year of freedom.

GPA: 4.0 puts you at above 75% for every single school.
LSAT: 170 puts you at the median or above it for every school Stanford and below, with the exceptions of Columbia, NYU.

For the bottom half of the T-14, your numbers alone are enough to admit you with money, as you're above the GPA 75% and close to the LSAT 75% in most of them. There's no way in hell you won't get into a T-14, and you need to just accept that. LSP may be a little off, but it's not that inaccurate - check LSN for confirmation of this by searching people with numbers similar to yours.

Now, different TLSers will give you different opinions about the value of softs, but here's one thing that's certain: a Fulbright is most certainly an immense asset. What it represents is excellence in academic achievement and an ability to perform at a high level and under pressure, two traits that T-14s care deeply about. Sports, work experience, leadership - none of those are particularly persuasive in an application. But, since you have a good set of numbers that make you a qualified applicant at almost all if not all the T-14 (again, HYS are indeed a bit of a stretch but they're not your goals) the Fulbright can go a long way in helping you to get admitted. The Ivy background certainly doesn't hurt either in that regard. So, here are my predictions for each of the T-14. Hopefully this will give you a little confidence that you WILL go to a top law school and that you won't be living off tuna and ramen for the next 30 years of your life.

Yale - very weak shot, but they have accepted those with weaker numbers but interesting backgrounds. Its academic orientation means it will value the Fulbright a little higher than most. Still worth the app fee if you would ever consider going there.

Harvard - numbers give you a weak shot (less than 50%), but again, certainly worth the app fee as your academic background could give you a small boost here. LSP gives you a "strong consider", and a friend of mine got in to HLS with similar stats to yours a couple of years ago.

Stanford - better chance than the two above. Excellent GPA will be taken seriously here, and the Fulbright will supplement that. Your LSAT is at their median, so you stand quite a decent chance. Palo Alto may be far for you, but the weather's damn beautiful and it'd be my dream to spend 3 years there.

Columbia - lower LSAT does put you at a disadvantage, GPA helps but who knows? Hopefully they get impressed by your WE/academic record or are in a good mood the day they read your application. Cross your fingers, there's certainly a good chance, but don't bet all your cards on it. They certainly are LSAT whores, and the GPA doesn't mean much here.

Chicago - good chance. You're at the LSAT median. Money is pretty unlikely as it's mostly based on the LSAT.

NYU - better chance than Columbia; again, cross your fingers and hope. Between the two of them there's a good chance you'll get one, but it's by no means a certainty. What type of law are you interested in? If public interest or international law, you could be a candidate for a big scholarship (though not a big chance of that).

MVPB - in, for sure. I'd hope with a little bit of money, but you're certainly in.

Duke, NW, Cornell, Georgetown - 100% in to all of these. You were wondering about Cornell - the average GPA is around 3.67 and LSAT around 167/168. Do you really think they'd reject an Ivy Fulbright 4.0/170? Good chance at money in any of these, perhaps a lot but I'm not an expert on that. Check LSN for past recipients of money from these schools.


In short: you have absolutely nothing to worry about. A diversity statement will boost you a tiny, tiny bit, but the schools will already see that you have something to add to their class (academic excellence). Relax, do some research on where you'd wanna go if you don't get into Columbia or NYU (pick a favorite or two from the lower T-14, and give some serious thought if you'd attend HYS if you got in. I really do think you stand a good shot at Stanford, and honestly, coming from a damn cold city I'd love to spend the next three years of my life living in that paradise. Anyways, make a couple of scenarios and start working on personal statements. Write a kickass one and you could very well be attending NYU or Columbia next fall. Use the next couple of months wisely.

Last note: in regards to seeing someone for help, as you really do want to kick ass on your PS to boost your C and N chances, contact the academic advising at your undergrad (or just walk into Columbia and pretend you're a current student). The advisers at these elite schools should have a good idea of how to help students prepare apps to get into other elite schools. HYS and other T-14s have high proportions of Ivy undergrads in their law schools.

Best of luck! Hope this helps.

SchopenhauerFTW
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Re: 170 LSAT, 4.0 GPA--where to apply?

Postby SchopenhauerFTW » Fri Jul 22, 2011 7:27 pm

B.Web wrote:Retake

Heads up: the mods recently made responding with simply "Retake" to any post a bannable offense.

OP: TL;DR

I am jelly.

Confused7
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Re: 170 LSAT, 4.0 GPA--where to apply?

Postby Confused7 » Fri Jul 22, 2011 11:21 pm

OP, I have almost identical stats to yours and also graduated from a top-10 Ivy. Check out the LSN link in profile and feel free to PM.

ihhwap1
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Postby ihhwap1 » Sat Jul 23, 2011 7:16 pm

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Last edited by ihhwap1 on Fri Jul 29, 2011 7:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

firemed
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Re: 170 LSAT, 4.0 GPA--where to apply?

Postby firemed » Sat Jul 23, 2011 7:42 pm

ihhwap1 wrote:Haha wow I've never heard anyone refer to Fulbright as a mediocre soft. OP you will be more than fine, brownpride hit it right on the head. I'm going to tag because my numbers are somewhat similar (regretfully not more similar.... minus .1 on the GPA and 1 Fulbright). But, seriously, you are in an incredibly enviable position.

Best of luck (although you probably won't need it)!



I have heard several times that a Fulbright is a mediocre soft for the T14. Probably below that it is a decent soft.

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LaCumparsita
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Re: 170 LSAT, 4.0 GPA--where to apply?

Postby LaCumparsita » Sat Jul 23, 2011 8:43 pm

Dude you are my sista from another mista/brotha from another motha. I'm 4.06/170 from a Top Public, my mother is from Argentina, and I'm doing a State department internship this Fall in Madrid. So I'm thinking our chances are pretty similar :)

thederangedwang
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Re: 170 LSAT, 4.0 GPA--where to apply?

Postby thederangedwang » Tue Jul 26, 2011 3:24 pm

It's very possible to be science or engineering and have a 4.0

One of the kids in my o-week group (kind of like an orientation group who are supposed to be your first friends) is a double major in mechanical engineering and computer science. He has a 4.22 (he showed me it). Our school awards 4.33 for A+. So, that means he has gotten more A+ than A's.

However, he is awkward as heck and would bomb any interview or semblance of human interaction

WSJ_Law
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Re: 170 LSAT, 4.0 GPA--where to apply?

Postby WSJ_Law » Tue Jul 26, 2011 4:03 pm

thederangedwang wrote:It's very possible to be science or engineering and have a 4.0

One of the kids in my o-week group (kind of like an orientation group who are supposed to be your first friends) is a double major in mechanical engineering and computer science. He has a 4.22 (he showed me it). Our school awards 4.33 for A+. So, that means he has gotten more A+ than A's.

However, he is awkward as heck and would bomb any interview or semblance of human interaction


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Corwin
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Re: 170 LSAT, 4.0 GPA--where to apply?

Postby Corwin » Tue Jul 26, 2011 4:28 pm

Despite grade inflation, 4.0 from an Ivy is still impressive (flame I know :P). You should be able to swing higher than a 170 after study and a retake. Even without a retake you still have an outside shot at one of H or S. With a retake you'll lock up one of HYS.




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