BYU or GW ED

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ED to GW or BYU

BYU
1
7%
GW
2
14%
T14
9
64%
Blanket schools 15-30
2
14%
 
Total votes: 14

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El_Gallo
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BYU or GW ED

Postby El_Gallo » Tue Jul 19, 2011 2:34 pm

I know that TLS hates hypotheticals, but I am having a hard time deciding between these two options.

About Me
- 3.75/170
-Non-URM
-Want to practice in the Rocky Mountain Range or the West Coast
-Extremely debt adverse
-Mormon
- As or right now I am thinking that I would like to practice in a midsize firm for a few years and then open up my own practice. However, there are also some public interest/govt. jobs that seem interesting. I would like to keep my options open.
-Would take biglaw if I got it, but I'm not gunning for it,

Option #1 BYU
-Tuition 30k
-I think I will probably get somewhere between a half and a full ride scholarship
-All schollys are top 1/3 to maintain or top 2/3 to maintain half.
-I am a devout Mormon and I went to BYU for undergrad. I am not opposed to going to law school there, but I wouldn't mind getting out of the Mormon Bubble for a while.

Option #2 ED to GW
-Applicants that get accepted through the early decision program get a full ride scholarship.
-I think I would enjoy GW more than BYU and they have some clinics that I am interested in.
-Very high cost of living
-Very far away from where I eventually want to work. I would be OK working on the east coast for 2-3 years after graduation, but I definitely don't want to stay much longer than that.

What do you guys think?
Last edited by El_Gallo on Tue Jul 19, 2011 4:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Yeshia90
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Re: BYU or GW ED

Postby Yeshia90 » Tue Jul 19, 2011 2:54 pm

If you're going to ED somewhere, with those stats, it should be T14. The full ride at GW is tempting, but unless that's the only consideration, I'd try leveraging money in the T14.

If it's got to be one of those 2, I'd personally go GW, but I'm the furthest thing from a Mormon there is. Though I'd consider voting for Romney. But it's very hard to trade my considerations for yours.

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skers
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Re: BYU or GW ED

Postby skers » Tue Jul 19, 2011 3:21 pm

Just go to BYU.

hurldes
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Re: BYU or GW ED

Postby hurldes » Tue Jul 19, 2011 3:29 pm

I knew a girl who graduated from BYU who told me that for a white male to get the kind of job he wants (midlaw to biglaw) he needs top 15%. Everyone else is struggling. GW would probably be the same odds, maybe even top 10% to get you back to the mountain west. In my opinion, BYU is safer, but GW/DC is more fun.

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ndirish2010
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Re: BYU or GW ED

Postby ndirish2010 » Tue Jul 19, 2011 4:01 pm

Seriously, go to BYU or a T14.

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El_Gallo
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Re: BYU or GW ED

Postby El_Gallo » Tue Jul 19, 2011 4:15 pm

Thanks for the replies guys. I definitely have considered going to a T14, but the idea of 150k+ in debt is just killing me.

hurldes wrote:In my opinion, BYU is safer, but GW/DC is more fun.


That is 100% what my guy is saying.

A lot of my LDS friends have said that BYU and GW are basically peer schools and since I want to practice in the west, BYU is a no-brainer. However, I am weary of listening to any of my mormon friends on this issues because a lot of LDS folk are ridiculously biased towards BYU. GW is ranked significantly higher than BYU.

So, what I am getting from this thread is that unless I do very well at GW, my ties to the west will probably not be enough to bring me back here?

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ndirish2010
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Re: BYU or GW ED

Postby ndirish2010 » Tue Jul 19, 2011 4:16 pm

There is no point in going to GW if you know you want to practice in the West. Go to BYU, save the money and COL, and take advantage of the LDS network.

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TheFutureLawyer
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Re: BYU or GW ED

Postby TheFutureLawyer » Tue Jul 19, 2011 4:20 pm

Neither. I wouldn't even bother applying to either school, considering your goals. If I were you, I'd just hit all the midwest/west schools from Northwestern down to WUSTL. Maybe a few others in the t30, but you should get some great offers just from inside the t18 (best $ would probably come from WUSTL and Gould).

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JetstoRJC
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Re: BYU or GW ED

Postby JetstoRJC » Tue Jul 19, 2011 4:25 pm

BYU would most likely be better career wise for you than would GW.

As has been mentioned, with your stats you really should be looking at T14. You will likely get at least a little bit of scholarship money from the MVP group (if you apply EARLY). With your interest in the west coast, somewhere like UCLA or USC could be a good option as well.

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TaipeiMort
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Re: BYU or GW ED

Postby TaipeiMort » Tue Jul 19, 2011 4:29 pm

Dude. Go T14. Don't ED GW. BYU is an awesome, cheap school and living in Provo watching BYU football would be awesome. If you feel prepared to fight for your life in the most competitive environment there is at ANY law school anywhere, then go BYU. Everyone wants biglaw/midlaw to provide for their families. All of the males are of equal ability, and a lot of them have turned down HLSCCN to get married/ watch BYU play/ drink the sweet Provo koolaide, religious reasons, etc. A lot of the studnets are high GPAers, meaning they know how to work like crazy. It is going to be so competitive. Also, don't think numbers mean much, I know a kid who is tops at BYU that barely got in off the waitlist.

If you go T14, your chances of Biglaw go from 15-percent (assuming you are a white male) to like 65% or something. Plus, the mormon network at T14 schools may be stronger than that at BYU. You can walk into a lot of jobs at Mormon firms pretty easy out west with the network's help and T14 on your resume, while Mormon partners at firms may be less likely to help you from BYU.

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El_Gallo
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Re: BYU or GW ED

Postby El_Gallo » Tue Jul 19, 2011 4:40 pm

Thanks for all the helpful responses guys. I didn't expect the responses to be so overwhelming against these two options. I edited the poll with two more choices.
TaipeiMort wrote:Dude. Go T14. Don't ED GW. BYU is an awesome, cheap school and living in Provo watching BYU football would be awesome. If you feel prepared to fight for your life in the most competitive environment there is at ANY law school anywhere, then go BYU. Everyone wants biglaw/midlaw to provide for their families. All of the males are of equal ability, and a lot of them have turned down HLSCCN to get married/ watch BYU play/ drink the sweet Provo koolaide, religious reasons, etc. A lot of the studnets are high GPAers, meaning they know how to work like crazy. It is going to be so competitive. Also, don't think numbers mean much, I know a kid who is tops at BYU that barely got in off the waitlist.


Are you lds? It sounds like you know our culture well. I'm recently married so I am worried about being forced into biglaw for a long period of time in order to pay off debt from a T14. I have heard that BYU is uber competitive. My second worst fear is ending up with nothing after graduation. My number one fear is to end up with nothing at graduation and a pile of debt.

TheFutureLawyer wrote:Neither. I wouldn't even bother applying to either school, considering your goals. If I were you, I'd just hit all the midwest/west schools from Northwestern down to WUSTL. Maybe a few others in the t30, but you should get some great offers just from inside the t18 (best $ would probably come from WUSTL and Gould).


I hadn't really considered this, good idea. Thanks for the helpful responses

AP-375
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Re: BYU or GW ED

Postby AP-375 » Tue Jul 19, 2011 4:45 pm

TaipeiMort wrote:Dude. Go T14. Don't ED GW. BYU is an awesome, cheap school and living in Provo watching BYU football would be awesome. If you feel prepared to fight for your life in the most competitive environment there is at ANY law school anywhere, then go BYU. Everyone wants biglaw/midlaw to provide for their families. All of the males are of equal ability, and a lot of them have turned down HLSCCN to get married/ watch BYU play/ drink the sweet Provo koolaide, religious reasons, etc. A lot of the studnets are high GPAers, meaning they know how to work like crazy. It is going to be so competitive. Also, don't think numbers mean much, I know a kid who is tops at BYU that barely got in off the waitlist.

If you go T14, your chances of Biglaw go from 15-percent (assuming you are a white male) to like 65% or something. Plus, the mormon network at T14 schools may be stronger than that at BYU. You can walk into a lot of jobs at Mormon firms pretty easy out west with the network's help and T14 on your resume, while Mormon partners at firms may be less likely to help you from BYU.


+1 to everything said here. I did a BYU undergrad, and I would not want to compete with my peers there, numbers aside. It's got a reputation as extremely competitive, which is scary.
Regarding Mormon networking, (I don't know how concerned you are about this) but based on my experiences, I think a BYU undergrad does everything you need for effective Mormon networking, and going to a T14 (or another decent school) would double the size of your network.

I think you should just apply all over and see how $$$ options shake out. Good luck!

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bk1
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Re: BYU or GW ED

Postby bk1 » Tue Jul 19, 2011 4:48 pm

TheFutureLawyer wrote:Neither. I wouldn't even bother applying to either school, considering your goals. If I were you, I'd just hit all the midwest/west schools from Northwestern down to WUSTL. Maybe a few others in the t30, but you should get some great offers just from inside the t18 (best $ would probably come from WUSTL and Gould).

I agree with this. I see no reason to lock yourself into ED at either one of these schools since you will likely get comparable offers from other T20-30 schools unless you genuinely prefer them substantially over other T20-30 schools. This will allow you to compare your scholarship offers at regional schools plus compare them to T14 acceptances if you end up choosing that route.

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El_Gallo
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Re: BYU or GW ED

Postby El_Gallo » Tue Jul 19, 2011 5:00 pm

AP-375 wrote:I think you should just apply all over and see how $$$ options shake out. Good luck!
bk1 wrote:I agree with this. I see no reason to lock yourself into ED at either one of these schools since you will likely get comparable offers from other T20-30 schools unless you genuinely prefer them substantially over other T20-30 schools. This will allow you to compare your scholarship offers at regional schools plus compare them to T14 acceptances if you end up choosing that route.


I appreciate the insights guys. Before, I started this post I was leaning very heavily towards EDing to GW. The decent job prospects with the low debt load were very appealing. Now, I will probably just apply far and wide and see how things play out.

Its funny how faceless strangers on the internet can help one make such an important decision. I appreciate it though. TLS is a great resource.

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skers
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Re: BYU or GW ED

Postby skers » Tue Jul 19, 2011 6:11 pm

BYU is a tremendous value. COA compared with placement is substantially better than any other school t20-t40. If I were still practicing LDS it would be near the top of my list.

I think what you do depends on what debt load you're comfortable with and how committed you are to the Rocky Mountain and West Coast regions. I'm primarily interested in those regions myself, but I will not be going t13 without understanding that there's a high probability I end up NYC or elsewhere. With the exception of Berk, I wouldn't go to any of these schools expecting to return to the Mountain West or West Coast.

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JetstoRJC
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Re: BYU or GW ED

Postby JetstoRJC » Tue Jul 19, 2011 7:22 pm

TemporarySaint wrote:I think what you do depends on what debt load you're comfortable with and how committed you are to the Rocky Mountain and West Coast regions. I'm primarily interested in those regions myself, but I will not be going t13 without understanding that there's a high probability I end up NYC or elsewhere. With the exception of Berk, I wouldn't go to any of these schools expecting to return to the Mountain West or West Coast.


If you have ties to the Rocky Mountain Area (as OP does) I would say going to a T14 actually increases his chances of being able to work in his geographic location of choice. The main difficulty in getting a job in the smaller secondary markets out West is that there just isn't a whole lot of summer associate positions. Somebody from a T14 with ties to the area has a better chance of securing one of those limited openings.

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skers
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Re: BYU or GW ED

Postby skers » Tue Jul 19, 2011 7:46 pm

JetstoRJC wrote:
TemporarySaint wrote:I think what you do depends on what debt load you're comfortable with and how committed you are to the Rocky Mountain and West Coast regions. I'm primarily interested in those regions myself, but I will not be going t13 without understanding that there's a high probability I end up NYC or elsewhere. With the exception of Berk, I wouldn't go to any of these schools expecting to return to the Mountain West or West Coast.


If you have ties to the Rocky Mountain Area (as OP does) I would say going to a T14 actually increases his chances of being able to work in his geographic location of choice. The main difficulty in getting a job in the smaller secondary markets out West is that there just isn't a whole lot of summer associate positions. Somebody from a T14 with ties to the area has a better chance of securing one of those limited openings.


He's still going with a $100K commitment with being stuck in NYC in order to pay off debt as a very real possibility. If he's cool working NYC Big Lawl it's worth the chance. Otherwise, I'm not sure if it is.

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buckilaw
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Re: BYU or GW ED

Postby buckilaw » Tue Jul 19, 2011 7:59 pm

You should go T14 over BYU since your odds of landing a job will be significantly better. The fact that BYU has stips on schollies makes this an even easier decision for you.

In regard to T14 vs a full ride to GW. If you apply to GW regular decision, they will likley offer you near a full ride anyway. There is no reason to ED at GW.

If you do want to ED somewhere consider Michigan; your numbers make you very competitive at Mich with an ED app. You have good options for biglaw and you would be in a good position to hit any market in the country, especially markets you have ties to. And Michigan awards merit and need based aid to ED admits.

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Dany
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Re: BYU or GW ED

Postby Dany » Tue Jul 19, 2011 8:15 pm

AP-375 wrote:I think you should just apply all over and see how $$$ options shake out. Good luck!

This, definitely.

You have very good numbers and will likely have great options from which to choose by the end of your cycle. It's tough to just wait and see, but if I had to guess, I'm betting you'll have a new poll with some very nice options next spring. Best of luck.

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ndirish2010
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Re: BYU or GW ED

Postby ndirish2010 » Tue Jul 19, 2011 8:36 pm

buckilaw wrote:You should go T14 over BYU since your odds of landing a job will be significantly better. The fact that BYU has stips on schollies makes this an even easier decision for you.

In regard to T14 vs a full ride to GW. If you apply to GW regular decision, they will likley offer you near a full ride anyway. There is no reason to ED at GW.

If you do want to ED somewhere consider Michigan; your numbers make you very competitive at Mich with an ED app. You have good options for biglaw and you would be in a good position to hit any market in the country, especially markets you have ties to. And Michigan awards merit and need based aid to ED admits.


Those numbers are competitive for Michigan RD I would think.

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JetstoRJC
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Re: BYU or GW ED

Postby JetstoRJC » Tue Jul 19, 2011 8:41 pm

Yeah no need to ED anywhere unless you really want somewhere like NYU (which I am pretty sure OP doesn't). Best advice for OP is to apply early and cast a wide net.

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El_Gallo
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Re: BYU or GW ED

Postby El_Gallo » Tue Jul 19, 2011 8:42 pm

Thanks for all the encouraging responses guys. Like I stated in my op, I am a very debt adverse individual. However, this thread has made me reflect on what it would be like living my entire life thinking "what if.." As of right now, I don't think I will ED anywhere and just see what kind of offers I get.

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buckilaw
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Re: BYU or GW ED

Postby buckilaw » Tue Jul 19, 2011 11:23 pm

ndirish2010 wrote:
buckilaw wrote:You should go T14 over BYU since your odds of landing a job will be significantly better. The fact that BYU has stips on schollies makes this an even easier decision for you.

In regard to T14 vs a full ride to GW. If you apply to GW regular decision, they will likley offer you near a full ride anyway. There is no reason to ED at GW.

If you do want to ED somewhere consider Michigan; your numbers make you very competitive at Mich with an ED app. You have good options for biglaw and you would be in a good position to hit any market in the country, especially markets you have ties to. And Michigan awards merit and need based aid to ED admits.


Those numbers are competitive for Michigan RD I would think.


Those numbers are competitive for Michigan RD. But there is minimal downside to applying ED since you can still receive merit or need aid. I am kind of a Michigan troll though.

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Dany
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Re: BYU or GW ED

Postby Dany » Tue Jul 19, 2011 11:29 pm

buckilaw wrote:Those numbers are competitive for Michigan RD. But there is minimal downside to applying ED since you can still receive merit or need aid. I am kind of a Michigan troll though.

Are you serious? There might be minimal downside if Michigan is someone's far-and-away number one choice, but for OP, who is extremely debt-averse, being locked into going to a school no matter what they give him in scholarships/need aid and not being able to compare options is a HUGE downside. He should certainly not ED to Michigan.

hurldes
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Re: BYU or GW ED

Postby hurldes » Tue Jul 19, 2011 11:42 pm

Also OP, have you spoken with LDS attorneys who went to law school in the t14 (or GW if you're still considering ED-ing)? If you go to a firms web page, you can usually search for undergrad schools. Find the attorneys who attended BYU for undergrad but Michigan or GW or Penn etc for law school. Email them and ask them about how they manage their debt and balance work and family life. Lots of LDS people attend t14 law schools and also have a balanced, family-oriented lifestyle. I bet they'd have some great insight in what you should do to minimize debt while maximizing your employment opportunities.




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