Top Law Schools

Hi everyone,

I have a question that I'm going to cross-post in the Admissions and Chances forums. I have a 3.35 (ouch) from a non-HYP Ivy undergrad with an major in economics and a 177 on my LSAT. I also have pretty good GRE/GMAT scores. I graduated in 2010 and have been working as a strategy consultant at a prestigious boutique (doesn't have the name recognition of McK, Bain, BCG). I have pretty good recommendations from my professors and bosses.

I know that ultimately I want to do a JD/MBA, with a goal of using it to go into legal practice or back into consulting. However, it has been a longtime academic passion and desire of mine to continue my education with a masters in economics or potentially political science at one of the 1-year programs at Oxford, LSE, or Cambridge. So my question is twofold:

First, what are my chances with my stats right now? Where should I apply? Where should I ED?

Second, can someone please help me think about the decision to do the masters? I'm lucky enough to have some money laying around in an educational fund, but it's only about enough to cover 1 year of law school, tuition + room/board. Will the MSc from one of the above schools help me at all? It doesn't have to be huge since I have other personal reasons for wanting to do it. I just don't want to spend a year and all the money doing it for pretty much nothing.

Sorry about the open-ended question. I really appreciate any advice and I'd be happy to clarify details, either in the thread or by PM.

Thanks

Apply everywhere in the T14 minus HYS. If you want one of CCN, ED to lock it in. You probably won't get merit $ from any of them anyways. Write good Why X essays for MVP. NCG should be your safeties.

czelede wrote:Apply everywhere in the T14 minus HYS. If you want one of CCN, ED to lock it in. You probably won't get merit $ from any of them anyways. Write good Why X essays for MVP. NCG should be your safeties.

Apologies, I'm a bit new to all of the acronyms. Could you explain MVP and NCG?

danielwebster wrote:

czelede wrote:Apply everywhere in the T14 minus HYS. If you want one of CCN, ED to lock it in. You probably won't get merit $ from any of them anyways. Write good Why X essays for MVP. NCG should be your safeties.

Apologies, I'm a bit new to all of the acronyms. Could you explain MVP and NCG?

MVP = Michigan, UVA, Penn.

NCG = Northwestern, Cornell, Georgetown

Also, I'll say that if you're looking for a JD/MBA, I think the top choices are Penn and Northwestern, with Michigan, Duke, and UVA trailing. Kellogg and Wharton are both really strong programs. Due to your work experience and high LSAT, you should be in at Northwestern, probably with some decent money. I'm not sure how splitter friendly Penn or Michigan are, but I think you should have a good shot at both.

Having 2 years of WE at matriculation will give you an outside shot at Penn, Northwestern, and Columbia JD/MBA but most like to see 3 or more. You would be much better off getting a JD/MBA than an MSc in econ, the masters will cost you a ton and get you nothing on the job market. If you really wanted to study economics for intellectual reasons I would suggest getting a JD/MA at whatever school you choose (you probably don't have any shot at a PhD program with a 3.35).

Just from what I've observed last year, 3.5 sort of seems to be a GPA floor for Duke RD (I stress RD because I've heard of applicants getting in ED and off the WL with below a 3.5).

NU should be a lock if you do well at the interview. They'll probably love your work experience.

CCN is gonna be tough. 3.5 seems to be somewhat of a floor for Columbia. I haven't studied Chicago and NYU admission trends as much.

Flips88 wrote:Also, I'll say that if you're looking for a JD/MBA, I think the top choices are Penn and Northwestern, with Michigan, Duke, and UVA trailing. Kellogg and Wharton are both really strong programs. Due to your work experience and high LSAT, you should be in at Northwestern, probably with some decent money. I'm not sure how splitter friendly Penn or Michigan are, but I think you should have a good shot at both.

mm, Northwestern's program accepts only like 30 people a year..

OP (original poster), if you have a really solid GMAT (760+), apply to Top 5 - HBS, Wharton, Kellogg, Booth, and GSB. Fuqua, Darden, Columbia, Ross, Haas, and Stern are generally considered one level down from T5. Hopefully you have strong interview skills because B-school admissions are much less numbers focused than law; your scores will likely get you the interview(s), but you're not really considered a shoo-in for any top school.

In addition, be aware that T5 are generally organized by specialty: HBS (management), Wharton (finance), Kellogg (marketing), GSB (entrepreneurship); b-schools strongly prefer candidates who are good fits for their school.


When sending in your app, most of these JD/MBA programs will ask you to apply separately to each school. Some law schools will give you a slight break with your low GPA, but I doubt you'll see much success at Stanford & Harvard. So if your primary goal is the JD/MBA, you might want to apply to JD programs whose admissions boards admit folks with GPAs such as yours.

To provide you that info:
Northwestern and Virginia Law are the two schools most widely known for accepting low GPAs.
3.35/177 also gives you a decent enough shot at Penn, Michigan, Duke, Chicago, NYU, etc JD programs.
Harvard, Stanford, Yale, and Berkeley have strong preferences for high GPAs.

If you're curious on how we generally get this info, take a look at http://www.lawschoolnumbers.com, which is a website that gives you self-reported information from thousands of applicants.

glewz wrote: OP (original poster), if you have a really solid GMAT (760+), apply to Top 5 - HBS, Wharton, Kellogg, Booth, and GSB.

I assume you want to get a JD/MBA and not just an MBA. If so, you shouldn't bother applying to Harvard or Stanford.

Have you taken the GMAT?

Thanks for the responses everyone. These have been really helpful.

My GMAT's a 780. I'm also willing to wait another couple of years to apply, bringing my total work experience up to 3-4 years. I know this will help with the MBA, but ultimately my MBA school choice is going to be driven by where I get my JD. I realize that law schools don't really care about work experience (frustrating - I personally know that work experience develops work ethic and discipline lacking in the UG experience, which were mainly responsible for my GPA).

Any thoughts on the MSc from Oxford/Cambridge? What if I apply after finishing the masters, so my grades can go out with the initial application instead of as an addendum at year-end? Ultimately, as much as I want the masters, I can't really justify going after it if it has no bearing on the rest of my career and academic choices.

Finally, I'm surprised no one has mentioned the UChicago JD/MBA. My impression was that both schools are very solid at Chicago, it's a school that prefers LSAT to GPA, tends to "rep out" a bit in terms of UG school ranking, and values work experience. Does anyone know anything about this? Does anyone care to dispel my delusions?

Thanks again everyone.

danielwebster wrote:Thanks for the responses everyone. These have been really helpful.

My GMAT's a 780. I'm also willing to wait another couple of years to apply, bringing my total work experience up to 3-4 years. I know this will help with the MBA, but ultimately my MBA school choice is going to be driven by where I get my JD. I realize that law schools don't really care about work experience (frustrating - I personally know that work experience develops work ethic and discipline lacking in the UG experience, which were mainly responsible for my GPA).

Any thoughts on the MSc from Oxford/Cambridge? What if I apply after finishing the masters, so my grades can go out with the initial application instead of as an addendum at year-end? Ultimately, as much as I want the masters, I can't really justify going after it if it has no bearing on the rest of my career and academic choices.

Finally, I'm surprised no one has mentioned the UChicago JD/MBA. My impression was that both schools are very solid at Chicago, it's a school that prefers LSAT to GPA, tends to "rep out" a bit in terms of UG school ranking, and values work experience. Does anyone know anything about this? Does anyone care to dispel my delusions?

Thanks again everyone.

Well your GPA is too low for Harvard, Yale, and Stanford, and probably Columbia and Chicago as well. You're likely to be wait listed at Columbia and Chicago and maybe NYU as well. Your GPA will probably get you rejected from Berkeley. You have a good shot at Penn, Michigan, and UVA. I'd say in at Georgetown, Cornell, and Northwestern.

FWIW, Northwestern is the school that values work experience. It's pretty much an unofficial prereq.

I also don't see the substantive advantages of getting a masters. It'd be another line on your resume, but probably not help you out that much in the long run.

danielwebster wrote:Thanks for the responses everyone. These have been really helpful.

My GMAT's a 780. I'm also willing to wait another couple of years to apply, bringing my total work experience up to 3-4 years. I know this will help with the MBA, but ultimately my MBA school choice is going to be driven by where I get my JD. I realize that law schools don't really care about work experience (frustrating - I personally know that work experience develops work ethic and discipline lacking in the UG experience, which were mainly responsible for my GPA).

Any thoughts on the MSc from Oxford/Cambridge? What if I apply after finishing the masters, so my grades can go out with the initial application instead of as an addendum at year-end? Ultimately, as much as I want the masters, I can't really justify going after it if it has no bearing on the rest of my career and academic choices.

Finally, I'm surprised no one has mentioned the UChicago JD/MBA. My impression was that both schools are very solid at Chicago, it's a school that prefers LSAT to GPA, tends to "rep out" a bit in terms of UG school ranking, and values work experience. Does anyone know anything about this? Does anyone care to dispel my delusions?

Thanks again everyone.

I was in a very similar situation to you when I applied during this last cycle. The JD was the driving factor in much of my decision making and the MBA was more of an added consideration. Contrary to what everyone else is saying I think you have a pretty decent shot at Columbia ED for both programs, it's your best JD/MBA option. The 780 will make you competitive from a numbers perspective and you can always reapply with more experience if you don't get in this upcoming cycle (although its your GPA that would keep you out of Columbia).

Chicago might be an option, but their program is 4 years (relative to Penn, Northwestern, and Columbia being 3 years). You would also have to decide on Chicago Law ED, since you will be waitlisted or rejected RD.

The MSc will be a hinderence for JD/MBA admissions relative to getting an additional year of work experience. Frankly I don't see any value in getting the degree, no matter the school, if you know a JD is in the cards already.

danielwebster wrote:Thanks for the responses everyone. These have been really helpful.

My GMAT's a 780. I'm also willing to wait another couple of years to apply, bringing my total work experience up to 3-4 years. I know this will help with the MBA, but ultimately my MBA school choice is going to be driven by where I get my JD. I realize that law schools don't really care about work experience (frustrating - I personally know that work experience develops work ethic and discipline lacking in the UG experience, which were mainly responsible for my GPA).

Any thoughts on the MSc from Oxford/Cambridge? What if I apply after finishing the masters, so my grades can go out with the initial application instead of as an addendum at year-end? Ultimately, as much as I want the masters, I can't really justify going after it if it has no bearing on the rest of my career and academic choices.

Finally, I'm surprised no one has mentioned the UChicago JD/MBA. My impression was that both schools are very solid at Chicago, it's a school that prefers LSAT to GPA, tends to "rep out" a bit in terms of UG school ranking, and values work experience. Does anyone know anything about this? Does anyone care to dispel my delusions?

Thanks again everyone.

Northwestern Law takes work experience into consideration, I think something like half of their entering class has 2+ years WE.

bdubs wrote:

danielwebster wrote:Thanks for the responses everyone. These have been really helpful.

My GMAT's a 780. I'm also willing to wait another couple of years to apply, bringing my total work experience up to 3-4 years. I know this will help with the MBA, but ultimately my MBA school choice is going to be driven by where I get my JD. I realize that law schools don't really care about work experience (frustrating - I personally know that work experience develops work ethic and discipline lacking in the UG experience, which were mainly responsible for my GPA).

Any thoughts on the MSc from Oxford/Cambridge? What if I apply after finishing the masters, so my grades can go out with the initial application instead of as an addendum at year-end? Ultimately, as much as I want the masters, I can't really justify going after it if it has no bearing on the rest of my career and academic choices.

Finally, I'm surprised no one has mentioned the UChicago JD/MBA. My impression was that both schools are very solid at Chicago, it's a school that prefers LSAT to GPA, tends to "rep out" a bit in terms of UG school ranking, and values work experience. Does anyone know anything about this? Does anyone care to dispel my delusions?

Thanks again everyone.

I was in a very similar situation to you when I applied during this last cycle. The JD was the driving factor in much of my decision making and the MBA was more of an added consideration. Contrary to what everyone else is saying I think you have a pretty decent shot at Columbia ED for both programs, it's your best JD/MBA option. The 780 will make you competitive from a numbers perspective and you can always reapply with more experience if you don't get in this upcoming cycle (although its your GPA that would keep you out of Columbia).

Chicago might be an option, but their program is 4 years (relative to Penn, Northwestern, and Columbia being 3 years). You would also have to decide on Chicago Law ED, since you will be waitlisted or rejected RD.

The MSc will be a hinderence for JD/MBA admissions relative to getting an additional year of work experience. Frankly I don't see any value in getting the degree, no matter the school, if you know a JD is in the cards already.

Hey bdubs - congrats on NW JD/MBA btw. slightly unrelated, but can you tell us why you applied to the schools you did? (looking at your profile) Why did you apply to NW & Duke's JD/MBA but not Penn?

glewz wrote:Hey bdubs - congrats on NW JD/MBA btw. slightly unrelated, but can you tell us why you applied to the schools you did? (looking at your profile) Why did you apply to NW & Duke's JD/MBA but not Penn?

Thanks. I actually applied to Columbia, Penn, Northwestern, and Duke for JD/MBA. I got rejected by Wharton, but accepted into Penn Law. I applied to CBS kind of late (December) and my numbers were screaming out for a WL at CLS. I got the WL/reject from CLS/CBS in the same week after I told them I needed to know before my Northwestern deposit was due.

All of my other apps were JD only since that was my primary focus going into the cycle.

You've got a decent to good shot at Cornell's joint JD/MBA.

woeisme wrote:You've got a decent to good shot at Cornell's joint JD/MBA.

I think s/he can do better with those numbers, especially if applying in 2012-2013.

@bdubs I see I see. Well NW's JD/MBA is a damn fine program so congrats & good luck to you.


And I agree that OP can likely get into more highly regarded programs than Cornell's JD/MBA.

bdubs wrote:

woeisme wrote:You've got a decent to good shot at Cornell's joint JD/MBA.

I think s/he can do better with those numbers, especially if applying in 2012-2013.

Yeah, probably. But solid option nonetheless.

You will get Northwestern, I'd bet on it. The thing is that for some schools you have to be accepted to each school separately. Your GPA won't cut it for some of the law schools, and that rules out the JD/MBA. But I'd throw in apps anyway. If you get HBS but not HLS, just take HBS and go to a different law school later (or not). Seriously, don't let law school dictate the business school you go to. If you get HBS and Cornell separately, I'd say that's way better than Cornell JD/MBA, even in 3 years.

But yeah, I'd say you get NU, definitely.

And Chicago was mentioned. It's called Booth.

Verity wrote:You will get Northwestern, I'd bet on it. The thing is that for some schools you have to be accepted to each school separately. Your GPA won't cut it for some of the law schools, and that rules out the JD/MBA. But I'd throw in apps anyway. If you get HBS but not HLS, just take HBS and go to a different law school later (or not). Seriously, don't let law school dictate the business school you go to. If you get HBS and Cornell separately, I'd say that's way better than Cornell JD/MBA, even in 3 years.

But yeah, I'd say you get NU, definitely.

And Chicago was mentioned. It's called Booth.

Not a single person in the full time Kellogg class has less than 3 years of experience, and the average JD/MBA experience is 4.5 years. I think you're being a bit optimistic.

http://www.kellogg.northwestern.edu/Pro ... ofile.aspx
http://www.kellogg.northwestern.edu/jdm ... ofiles.htm

bdubs wrote:

Verity wrote:You will get Northwestern, I'd bet on it. The thing is that for some schools you have to be accepted to each school separately. Your GPA won't cut it for some of the law schools, and that rules out the JD/MBA. But I'd throw in apps anyway. If you get HBS but not HLS, just take HBS and go to a different law school later (or not). Seriously, don't let law school dictate the business school you go to. If you get HBS and Cornell separately, I'd say that's way better than Cornell JD/MBA, even in 3 years.

But yeah, I'd say you get NU, definitely.

And Chicago was mentioned. It's called Booth.

Not a single person in the full time Kellogg class has less than 3 years of experience, and the average JD/MBA experience is 4.5 years. I think you're being a bit optimistic.

http://www.kellogg.northwestern.edu/Pro ... ofile.aspx
http://www.kellogg.northwestern.edu/jdm ... ofiles.htm

Yeah, but what we don't know is how many applicants there are that have less than 3 years WE. With OP's decent WE and awesome GMAT, I'd still bet OP gets in. Definitely will get into the law school.

Hey Verity, you seem to know a few things about UChicago. If this is true, could you give me a sense of what my chances there are with my stats? I know both the law and business schools are among the best in the country; what are my chances of getting into Booth with, say, 2-3 years of WE, if I'm applying at the same time as I apply to the law school (meaning I'm not already admitted)? What about if I apply during my 1L, assuming I get into the law school? What are my chances of getting into the law school alone?

Anyone else who could answer this question would be appreciated also.

Thanks

danielwebster wrote:Hey Verity, you seem to know a few things about UChicago. If this is true, could you give me a sense of what my chances there are with my stats? I know both the law and business schools are among the best in the country; what are my chances of getting into Booth with, say, 2-3 years of WE, if I'm applying at the same time as I apply to the law school (meaning I'm not already admitted)? What about if I apply during my 1L, assuming I get into the law school? What are my chances of getting into the law school alone?

Anyone else who could answer this question would be appreciated also.

Thanks

I'd say, barring some borderline implausible stuff on your resume (astronaut, founder of Amazon.com, etc.), there is basically no chance for Chicago's law school. Their admission is separate (unlike NU for example, which does all of its admission through Kellogg), so non-transfer JD/MBA is out. Like I said, without a really ridiculous resume, it's a numbers game, and that GPA won't work.

As far as applying during 1L, that's possible, but it's a huge risk. You'd need to be in about the top 5% at a T30 or so for that to be fairly possible. At least Chicago has early action, so you can figure that out after fall semester. It's a gamble, though.

But yes, I would say that you should stick with your current job for a couple of years and then apply not only to Booth (which I think you'd get, assuming you can interview well), but also HBS, Stanford, MIT Sloan, Wharton, & Kellogg.

I think you're overall best strategy is to either try for NU JD/MBA either now or in a few years, or get a couple years WE and then try for HBS, SBS, Sloan, or Wharton and then try to get into the best law school you can after you finish the MBA. I favor the latter. By then, law schools will probably put less weight on your UGPA since you've been removed from it for a while. It's also great to show law schools you can do well at a top MBA program. Really, top 5 b-school + T25 (or T14 if your WE leads to your GPA being treated with mercy) law school > T18-25 JD/MBA. The only exception is NU, which I'd bet you get now, but you'd be statistically better off with a couple more years WE.

Verity wrote:

danielwebster wrote:Hey Verity, you seem to know a few things about UChicago. If this is true, could you give me a sense of what my chances there are with my stats? I know both the law and business schools are among the best in the country; what are my chances of getting into Booth with, say, 2-3 years of WE, if I'm applying at the same time as I apply to the law school (meaning I'm not already admitted)? What about if I apply during my 1L, assuming I get into the law school? What are my chances of getting into the law school alone?

Anyone else who could answer this question would be appreciated also.

Thanks

I'd say, barring some borderline implausible stuff on your resume (astronaut, founder of Amazon.com, etc.), there is basically no chance for Chicago's law school. Their admission is separate (unlike NU for example, which does all of its admission through Kellogg), so non-transfer JD/MBA is out. Like I said, without a really ridiculous resume, it's a numbers game, and that GPA won't work.

Chicago took a handful of sub 3.2x/175+ splitters off the waitlist this year. Just saying. RD is tough though, but I think with an ED you might be able to get in - though that'd screw up your plans if you don't get into Booth as well.