no citizenship/chances at HY? Forum

[futurehero]

Thanks roary,
yes I know that we are not eligible for it.
As I know, the only schools that I can expect FA from are HY. No chance in S. that's what my pre-law advisor said. S doesn't have any merit-based scholarship and doesn't allow need-based to foreigners.

I guess, the only thing I need to do is just go get a good lsat score. simple but hard
I just wanted to check that my life is not in ruin even if I fail to get 175+.

[vanwinkle]

Thanks for the link!

I want to start my career in the states. Maybe I will move back to my country later but that depends on how I like my work and life here.

1) If you want a degree that is internationally portable, you definitely want to be shooting for H/Y/C IMO. Lower-ranked schools just won't be as well-recognized or valuable abroad.

2) What is your plan for having a career here? I am really confused about your immigration status. If you don't have your green card, you're not a permanent resident. Since you said you're not eligible for the FAFSA I'm assuming you're not in one of the non-permanent categories that would make you eligible. Do you have work authorization? Do you know how you'll be able to maintain your residency and work authorization after you graduate?

You said you're an "international student" which makes me think you're here on a student visa. From what I understand, people with student visas have strict limitations on the kinds of work they're allowed to take, and you can only work in "practical training" related to your course of study if it either is a degree requirement or earns you academic credit. Law firm jobs are neither.

If you don't have work authorization now, and don't have a good plan to get work authorization by the end of your 1L year, I don't think you'll be eligible to work 2L summer. You could likely do unpaid internships without problem, but you'd be shutting yourself out of law firms.

I could be wrong, but one thing you really need to do is make sure you'd be eligible to work before enrolling in a law school here. The summer employment is a big part of the learning process, and it's a big part of getting your start in a career here.

[AntipodeanPhil]

Vanwinkle: I know I make you angry, but you're doing more harm than good.

If you don't have work authorization now, and don't have a good plan to get work authorization by the end of your 1L year, I don't think you'll be eligible to work 2L summer. You could likely do unpaid internships without problem, but you'd be shutting yourself out of law firms.

If OP gets accepted to law school, he can get an F1 visa (the same kind of visa he is probably on now). If he gets an offer for law-related employment over summer, he could easily get CPT authorization (part of the F1 visa program). That is not an issue - it would only be an issue if he wanted to do something odd and non-law-related over summer. Trust me, I've been on F1 visas, got CPT authorization, and known others in similar situations.

You're right to suggest the OP will face issues after he graduates. He may be able to use OPT authorization to work in the US for a year; after that, he will have to find an employer willing to sponsor him for a work visa. If he gets accepted to HYS, I would imagine that wouldn't be too difficult, but I am only speculating on that point.

OP: don't worry about the money so much. Loans are worth it for the very top schools - even if you have to pay a higher interest rate.

[vanwinkle]

Vanwinkle: I know I make you angry, but you're doing more harm than good.

How am I doing harm? I'm asking questions that he should have answers to. You can't just go to law school without some plan for what you're going to do when you graduate. OP needs to be aware of the issues they're facing.

I appreciate you providing somewhat useful information this time, though.

[PriOSky]

.

[lovejopd]

Thanks for the link!

I want to start my career in the states. Maybe I will move back to my country later but that depends on how I like my work and life here.

1) If you want a degree that is internationally portable, you definitely want to be shooting for H/Y/C IMO. Lower-ranked schools just won't be as well-recognized or valuable abroad.

2) What is your plan for having a career here? I am really confused about your immigration status. If you don't have your green card, you're not a permanent resident. Since you said you're not eligible for the FAFSA I'm assuming you're not in one of the non-permanent categories that would make you eligible. Do you have work authorization? Do you know how you'll be able to maintain your residency and work authorization after you graduate?

You said you're an "international student" which makes me think you're here on a student visa. From what I understand, people with student visas have strict limitations on the kinds of work they're allowed to take, and you can only work in "practical training" related to your course of study if it either is a degree requirement or earns you academic credit. Law firm jobs are neither.
If you don't have work authorization now, and don't have a good plan to get work authorization by the end of your 1L year, I don't think you'll be eligible to work 2L summer. You could likely do unpaid internships without problem, but you'd be shutting yourself out of law firms.

I could be wrong, but one thing you really need to do is make sure you'd be eligible to work before enrolling in a law school here. The summer employment is a big part of the learning process, and it's a big part of getting your start in a career here.

Vanwinkle. This is the harm. OP can do CPT or OPT during summer 2L. Practical training applies to law firm jobs. Period.

[AntipodeanPhil]

I'm quite interested in what you wrote. What do you mean by "internationally portable"? How hard is it to practice business/corporate law in Singapore, London, and Hong Kong with a JD from HYS CCN?

I don't know anything about the specifics of those legal markets, but I think Vanwinkle is right to suggest that prestige within the US doesn't map all that well to prestige outside the US. As a foreigner, I would suggest the following rankings:

Tier 1: H
Tier 2: YS, Columbia
Tier 3: NYU, Berk, Mich, Penn, Cornell, Duke
Tier 4: the remaining T15.

Harvard stands on its own, well above the others. It's as famous as Oxford and Cambridge, imho. All educated foreigners will have heard of - and respect - the tier 2 schools. Most will have heard of the tier 3 schools.

Also, everyone knows the term 'Ivy League,' but many couldn't name some of the places on it - especially Penn, perhaps Cornell.

[subtle]

I'm quite interested in what you wrote. What do you mean by "internationally portable"? How hard is it to practice business/corporate law in Singapore, London, and Hong Kong with a JD from HYS CCN?

I don't know anything about the specifics of those legal markets, but I think Vanwinkle is right to suggest that prestige within the US doesn't map all that well to prestige outside the US. As a foreigner, I would suggest the following rankings:

Tier 1: H
Tier 2: YS, Columbia
Tier 3: NYU, Berk, Mich, Penn, Cornell, Duke
Tier 4: the remaining T15.

Harvard stands on its own, well above the others. It's as famous as Oxford and Cambridge, imho. All educated foreigners will have heard of - and respect - the tier 2 schools. Most will have heard of the tier 3 schools.

Also, everyone knows the term 'Ivy League,' but many couldn't name some of the places on it - especially Penn, perhaps Cornell.

I think you're right about everyone knowing Harvard. But I don't know if your assessment of the other schools are correct. I would hazard to say that it depends on the people and country. My roommate is from Beijing and she said that she turned down Cambridge because "Anyone can get in there" but the same isn't true of University of Michigan (admittedly, she isn't speaking of law school, but still).

[vanwinkle]

I will openly admit I could be wrong about CPT/OPT. I never researched it well enough to be sure of what I've heard. However, I think it's important for OP to be aware of, as is the issue of what they plan on doing post-graduation, and firms may still not want to make offers for summer employment to someone not authorized to work here when they graduate. It's something important to find the right answer to, and open dialogue can't harm that.

1) If you want a degree that is internationally portable, you definitely want to be shooting for H/Y/C IMO. Lower-ranked schools just won't be as well-recognized or valuable abroad.

vanwinkle,

I'm quite interested in what you wrote. What do you mean by "internationally portable"? How hard is it to practice business/corporate law in Singapore, London, and Hong Kong with a JD from HYS CCN?

There are two separate problems for using any American law degree abroad:

1) These degrees are designed to prepare you for American law. Even Harvard, which is massive and has a relatively large number of international students, has few international law courses. Their programs are designed less to prepare you to practice law anywhere and more to prepare anyone from anywhere to practice law here. The basic skills are still regarded as valuable, if you went to a school prestigious enough that they recognize the value of it abroad, but you can't just expect to take any American law degree and be employable anywhere.

2) Internationally there's not much awareness, let alone recognition, of law school prestige below the top. Harvard is just known everywhere, and there are constantly international tourists visiting the campus as a tourist attraction while they're in the U.S. Yale, Stanford, and Columbia are names that can carry some real weight even internationally, but not as universally, and below that the drop-off is steep. I mean, to put this in perspective, the people I knew in Texas weren't aware that Virginia or Michigan are prestigious law schools. Prestige works different among lawyers than laypeople, but lawyers in Hong Kong or London (for example) just won't have much exposure to lawyers from schools below the top and thus aren't likely to know what they even are.

And prestige matters with clients, too; if they're paying good money for representation, they're going to want to know they're getting good work, and they don't know legal rankings like lawyers do. "He went to Harvard" is enough in Asia and Europe, where the school is well-known and well-regarded. The more you have to explain the value of the degree the less valuable it is.

If, here in America, someone goes "He went to Oxford," you know instantly you're speaking to someone who was accepted to and trained at one of England's most historic and prestigious academic institutions. But how do you respond if you hear, "He went to East London"? Wouldn't your first thought be to question what East London is, what makes it impressive, if it's impressive in the first place? Imagine that, but in reverse.

Really, the most valuable jobs for people with American JDs abroad are with firms that handle international business between America and that country. Those are often high-dollar jobs handling high-dollar issues, and prestige matters as a selling point for those firms. While much work can be handled domestically on each side, there are some lawyers employed overseas to help with international business there. Where those jobs exist, they typically go to people from the top few law schools.

[futurehero]

Hey guys

as a foreigner and OP, I will answer the questions listed.
First of all, you guys are both underestimating how much your country is open to smart foreigners and how much knowledgeable foreign companies are about foreign institutions.

For work authorization,
1) I can get a temporary working visa for internships. It's definitely harder for me to get a post-graduation job than others but it is just as hard as getting an internship. For most of the time, the fact that they have accepted me as an intern means that they are willing to sponsor me after graduation. It's hard but not uncommon. There are many companies that would sponsor me even as an undergraduate. To get a job, I need to go to top law schools (it's not only preferred but also necessary) but as long as I do well, legal issues shouldn't be a problem.

For international prestige of law schools,
2) You are right that ordinary people would consider H as the best, YS/C as the second. Law schools like Georgetown, UPenn, NYU, Chicago, .... etc are less well known. Most ppl wouldn't even know what that is (at least in my country). But the thing is, when getting a job, you are not dealing with these kinds of people. Most of the cases, you are dealing with the executives of a big firm that handles international lawsuits (in most countries, you can't practice with US law degree but there's still a lot of demands for many reasons). Believe me, these executives know what T14 is, how prestigious Y is compared to H. Keep in mind that the US is not the only country with world-scale company!

[lovejopd]

I will openly admit I could be wrong about CPT/OPT. I never researched it well enough to be sure of what I've heard. However, I think it's important for OP to be aware of, as is the issue of what they plan on doing post-graduation, and firms may still not want to make offers for summer employment to someone not authorized to work here when they graduate. It's something important to find the right answer to, and open dialogue can't harm that.


What do you mean by NOT authorized to work?...International students can apply for H1B Visa(Working visa) after graduation as long as they find a job before graduation. Finding a job is a problem, not any legal issue involved. I know your heart is in the right place. However, your statement seems misleading and even intimidate other internationals. Maybe small firms do not want to hire internationals due to the cost of any documents.

[futurehero]

"not authorized to work" makes sense because I am currently "not authorized to work".
Many firms ask when receiving resume "are you authorized to work in the United States?"
And I have to say no.

But that doesn't mean that I will be forever not authorized to work. It means that the company must make me authorized to work.

But there's no harm in opening up the discussion. Frankly speaking, international students studying in the states already know what it takes to get a job, what is possible, and what is impossible. As an undergraduate in HYPSM, I feel like at some points ppl "need to be intimidated". Many international students think that getting into HYPSM guarantees a job but that's not necessarily true for internationals who are at disadvantage.

[lovejopd]

"not authorized to work" makes sense because I am currently "not authorized to work".
Many firms ask when receiving resume "are you authorized to work in the United States?"
And I have to say no.

But that doesn't mean that I will be forever not authorized to work. It means that the company must make me authorized to work.

But there's no harm in opening up the discussion. Frankly speaking, international students studying in the states already know what it takes to get a job, what is possible, and what is impossible. As an undergraduate in HYPSM, I feel like at some points ppl "need to be intimidated". Many international students think that getting into HYPSM guarantees a job but that's not necessarily true for internationals who are at disadvantage.

Yes, you are correct.

Technically, You are NOT authorized to work except on-campus job(which I have now) when you have a F1(Student Visa). but vanwinkle says NOT authorized to work WHEN they graduate NOT before graduation. So it does not make sense to me. Internationals have many more complicated issues that many Americans are not aware of.

[vanwinkle]

"not authorized to work" makes sense because I am currently "not authorized to work".
Many firms ask when receiving resume "are you authorized to work in the United States?"
And I have to say no.

But that doesn't mean that I will be forever not authorized to work. It means that the company must make me authorized to work.

But there's no harm in opening up the discussion. Frankly speaking, international students studying in the states already know what it takes to get a job, what is possible, and what is impossible. As an undergraduate in HYPSM, I feel like at some points ppl "need to be intimidated". Many international students think that getting into HYPSM guarantees a job but that's not necessarily true for internationals who are at disadvantage.

Yes, you are correct.

Technically, You are NOT authorized to work except on-campus job(which I have now) when you have a F1(Student Visa). but vanwinkle says NOT authorized to work WHEN they graduate NOT before graduation. So it does not make sense to me. Internationals have many more complicated issues that many Americans are not aware of.

I don't understand your objection. The above poster understood it. He's not currently authorized to work after he graduates. An employer may be hesitant to hire someone for a summer position if they're not authorized to work after graduation. It's also possible they may help that person become authorized to work, but that's not a given. A big part of the reason that law firms do 2L summers is to test out potential associates and decide who to hire; they may not offer that opportunity to someone who won't be eligible to work there when they graduate. My point was that you can't just assume, if you don't currently have post-graduation work authorization lined up, that you can get it by the time it matters, and that it could matter as early as 2L OCI.

Also, your statement about being not authorized to work except on-campus conflicts with what was said earlier about being able to work for a firm with a student visa. Law firms are most certainly off-campus.

[AntipodeanPhil]

Technically, You are NOT authorized to work except on-campus job(which I have now) when you have a F1(Student Visa).

Gah! You ARE eligible to work off campus with CPT/OPT authorization. Stop spreading misinformation. Here is evidence:

1. Harvard's explanation of CPT authorization for students with F1 visas:

--LinkRemoved--

2. A form illustrating how Harvard gets 1L and 2L employment offers to satisfy CPT requirements:

http://www.law.harvard.edu/academics/wr ... ptform.pdf

I have received CPT authorization for work off campus, and I know others who have received OPT authorization for work in other states - not even near campus.

[lovejopd]

Technically, You are NOT authorized to work except on-campus job(which I have now) when you have a F1(Student Visa).

Gah! You ARE eligible to work off campus with CPT/OPT authorization. Stop spreading misinformation. Here is evidence:

1. Harvard's explanation of CPT authorization for students with F1 visas:

--LinkRemoved--

2. A form illustrating how Harvard gets 1L and 2L employment offers to satisfy CPT requirements:

http://www.law.harvard.edu/academics/wr ... ptform.pdf

I have received CPT authorization for work off campus, and I know others who have received OPT authorization for work in other states - not even near campus.

To be specific, what I meant was international students are allowed to work only on campus WITHOUT CPT/OPT. I never said they are NEVER allowed to work off campus with F1 Visa. Sorry for seemingly misleading info. What I mean is that you can only work on-campus without using OPT and CPT / involving any authorization with International Office in your undergrad/law school. Most internationals who are interested in working in the states know pretty much of this info haha. Once again sorry for SPREADING MISINFORMATION

[lovejopd]

Technically, You are NOT authorized to work except on-campus job(which I have now) when you have a F1(Student Visa).

Gah! You ARE eligible to work off campus with CPT/OPT authorization. Stop spreading misinformation. Here is evidence:

1. Harvard's explanation of CPT authorization for students with F1 visas:

--LinkRemoved--

2. A form illustrating how Harvard gets 1L and 2L employment offers to satisfy CPT requirements:

http://www.law.harvard.edu/academics/wr ... ptform.pdf

I have received CPT authorization for work off campus, and I know others who have received OPT authorization for work in other states - not even near campus.

Hey, I also have a question because you have experience in getting CPT authorization for work off campus. During semesters, you can work less than 20 hours per week(PT work), but do you have to at least take 12 credit units during academic year but not summer vacation? It it correct? This part is that I do not know for sure.

[AntipodeanPhil]

Hey, I also have a question because you have experience in getting CPT authorization for work off campus. During semesters, you can work less than 20 hours per week(PT work), but do you have to at least take 12 credit units during academic year but not summer vacation? It it correct? This part is that I do not know for sure.

I'm confused as to what the question is, but I would be anxious about giving you advice on the specifics of your situation - how many credit hours you have to be enrolled for, et cetera. You should ask the people in whatever office at your university provides the authorization (usually the International Office) - they'll be able to help you, I'm sure.

[lovejopd]

Hey, I also have a question because you have experience in getting CPT authorization for work off campus. During semesters, you can work less than 20 hours per week(PT work), but do you have to at least take 12 credit units during academic year but not summer vacation? It it correct? This part is that I do not know for sure.

I'm confused as to what the question is, but I would be anxious about giving you advice on the specifics of your situation - how many credit hours you have to be enrolled for, et cetera. You should ask the people in whatever office at your university provides the authorization (usually the International Office) - they'll be able to help you, I'm sure.

Now I know the answer. When school is in session(Spring or Fall), students need to be enrolled for classes such as internship (full student) and can work up to 20 hours.

[vanwinkle]

Gah! You ARE eligible to work off campus with CPT/OPT authorization. Stop spreading misinformation. Here is evidence:

1. Harvard's explanation of CPT authorization for students with F1 visas:

--LinkRemoved--

2. A form illustrating how Harvard gets 1L and 2L employment offers to satisfy CPT requirements:

http://www.law.harvard.edu/academics/wr ... ptform.pdf

I have received CPT authorization for work off campus, and I know others who have received OPT authorization for work in other states - not even near campus.

This is all good for international students to know, and thanks for the links. Also, it looks like they get you academic credit for your summer employment by having you fulfill some kind of written work requirement (probably write a paper on your summer experience), which explains how they get around the "for academic credit" limitation. Very crafty.

[hypothalamus]

I know this is an old thread, but as a personally concerned party (i.e. international student), I figured I'd point out one major problem OP and myself might have... While top schools will consider foreigners for need and/or merit-based aid, even full-ride scholarships don't cover more than tuition usually. Getting loans when you're foreign is NOT as simple as getting loans with higher interest rates - you cannot get them without an American co-signer. Harvard is the only law school that I know that gives institutional loans to its internationals. Otherwise getting loans is not easy.

[kazu]

I know this is an old thread, but as a personally concerned party (i.e. international student), I figured I'd point out one major problem OP and myself might have... While top schools will consider foreigners for need and/or merit-based aid, even full-ride scholarships don't cover more than tuition usually. Getting loans when you're foreign is NOT as simple as getting loans with higher interest rates - you cannot get them without an American co-signer. Harvard is the only law school that I know that gives institutional loans to its internationals. Otherwise getting loans is not easy.

What about getting loans from a financial institution in your home country? I feel like international students always overlook this option, and I'm wondering why - you're more likely to have a viable cosigner, etc etc.

[hypothalamus]

There are very few countries where the standard of living is so high that you can reasonably expect secure loans of up to (or more than) 100 000 US dollars. In my country, even for a loan of $10 000, you'd have to mortgage your house - assuming it's worth that much... Perhaps, some governments might sponsor very promising students' study abroad at a top US law school... but it still wouldn't be this big a sponsorship.

My stipend for excellent grades throughout high school was $13/month. Just as comparison

[kazu]

Ah, understood. Thanks for explaining hypo.

[hypothalamus]

No problem, kazu