Loyola LA 2.9 GPA 164

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harocutter
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Loyola LA 2.9 GPA 164

Postby harocutter » Mon Apr 11, 2011 7:37 am

I'm a music major at cal state Chico. I messed around my first year at school and it got 4 F's :( For the past two years I've received above a 3.5 GPA and finished my senior spring semester with a 4.0 GPA. My cumulative GPA ended up being a 2.9, because of those F's freshman year. I also received a 164 on my LSAT, which is pretty respectable. I have been involved with an English tutoring and TA program for 3 years and was the first chair in classical guitar program. I'm a classical guitar major and I hope this extra curricular activity can help my chances. I'm applying to only one school, Loyola law school Los Angeles. I'm going to apply as an early decision because I know this is the school for me. My cousin went there and graduated top of her class, so I've had an inside view into what it's like to attend. I'm wondering what you guys think my chances are of getting into Loyola LA. I have a lot of good soft factors, but I'm really concerned about my 2.9 GPA. What do you guys think, any advice?

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AntipodeanPhil
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Re: Loyola LA 2.9 GPA 164

Postby AntipodeanPhil » Mon Apr 11, 2011 9:27 am

Well, Loyola's median LSAT is 160 and their median GPA is 3.41, so you are significantly above one and significantly below the other. Accoording to LSN, Loyola rejected a candidate with your GPA and a slightly lower LSAT, and accepted a candidate with your GPA and a slightly higher LSAT(166).

If you could get your LSAT score up a few points before applying, you'd have a much better chance. As you probably know, law school is largely a numbers game, and my guess is that your softs aren't good enough to make a significant difference.

Also, is 2.9 your college GPA or your LSAC GPA? The numbers are usually different - often significantly so.

harocutter
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Re: Loyola LA 2.9 GPA 164

Postby harocutter » Mon Apr 11, 2011 10:37 am

My LSAC GPA is a 2.9. In regards to my soft factors, I have two strong letters of rec. with evaluation forms. I will be applying ED, I'm a catholic (loyola is a catholic school) I've had a family member graduate as valedictorian. I'm a music major, I'm this will give me a slight edge because they will want a varied student class. Also, Loyola will be the only school I'm applying to and I will make this evident in my statement. I was thinking that because Loyola is a private school they give more flexibility with applications, (they have things like rolling admission etc.) Compared to a UC school, I think Loyola won't stick to the classic numbers game, or so I hope :D

harocutter
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Re: Loyola LA 2.9 GPA 164

Postby harocutter » Mon Apr 11, 2011 11:19 am

To be specific my LSAC GPA is 2.83

MMags
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Re: Loyola LA 2.9 GPA 164

Postby MMags » Mon Apr 11, 2011 11:24 am

Not sure being a music major is going to give you "an edge", but thats just my opinion. (Just as someone else being valedictorian doesn't impact you as a prospective student)

Also 2.83 is different than a 2.9, especially at that range. While I think its unlikely, I wish you the best of luck!
Your best bet is to work hard to improve your LSAT score - even a few points could make a substantial difference.

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AntipodeanPhil
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Re: Loyola LA 2.9 GPA 164

Postby AntipodeanPhil » Mon Apr 11, 2011 11:39 am

harocutter wrote:I think Loyola won't stick to the classic numbers game, or so I hope :D


I don't mean to be an *******, but many people seem to think that law schools will make an exception for them, yet schools seldom do.

I also think MMags is right that your major is unlikely to give you any significant edge. IMHO, the only things that might help you are ED and - perhaps - your Catholicism. Does anyone know if Catholic schools are more interested in Catholic candidates? I don't, but it wouldn't surprise me if that gave you a very slight edge.

Also, if you're applying ED, you don't really need to mention in your PS that you are only applying to Loyola. The ED gives them yield protect. Perhaps you should find a subtle way to emphasize how important your religion is to you.

Also, is there really no where else you would consider attending? There is some degree of randomness in any application process. I would suggest thinking about what you would prefer as your second choice - that is, if Loyola doesn't accept you. Would you rather be somewhere else, or at no law school at all? If you'd rather be at no law school at all, then how much do you really want to be a lawyer?

harocutter
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Re: Loyola LA 2.9 GPA 164

Postby harocutter » Mon Apr 11, 2011 2:40 pm

As far as a second choice goes, I was thinking Chapman Law School in Orange. I'm interested in doing prosecution for the DA's office, so I think Chapman will suffice. I believe Chapman has a 3.0 GPA and 159 average. My question is, If I were to apply to Loyola ED could I still apply to Chapman at the same time? I was thinking I could, but I would just have to withdraw my Chapman application if Loyola did accept me.

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JamMasterJ
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Re: Loyola LA 2.9 GPA 164

Postby JamMasterJ » Mon Apr 11, 2011 5:19 pm

harocutter wrote:As far as a second choice goes, I was thinking Chapman Law School in Orange. I'm interested in doing prosecution for the DA's office, so I think Chapman will suffice. I believe Chapman has a 3.0 GPA and 159 average. My question is, If I were to apply to Loyola ED could I still apply to Chapman at the same time? I was thinking I could, but I would just have to withdraw my Chapman application if Loyola did accept me.

Yes you could, and yes you would automatically have to pull other apps if Loyola takes you.
I just checked LSP to see what your chances are (not great, but possible), and I couldn't find a check ED on there. I'm assuming that you know more about the school that I but are you positive that they have ED?
I would also check out the other CA schools in that range like San Diego and Pepperdine, or if you retake and score higher to shoot for Hastings

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fragged
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Re: Loyola LA 2.9 GPA 164

Postby fragged » Tue Apr 12, 2011 2:16 am

I have very close to your numbers, and 10+ years of work experience. I got waitlisted. I assumed the distance from my undergrad GPA would help. I was wrong.

FiveSermon
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Re: Loyola LA 2.9 GPA 164

Postby FiveSermon » Tue Apr 12, 2011 2:22 am

Cali schools like high GPA's. Even with your way above median LSAT, the sub 3.0 GPA makes you an unlikely admit. Most likely a waitlist.

crit_racer
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Re: Loyola LA 2.9 GPA 164

Postby crit_racer » Tue Apr 12, 2011 2:51 pm

Loyola is not a holistic admissions process at all. It's such a big school--they are straight numbers.

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Re: Loyola LA 2.9 GPA 164

Postby harocutter » Tue Apr 12, 2011 10:56 pm

What about Pepperdine, do you think I would have a better shot there? In regards to last comment, I think Pepperdine is a smaller school and might give more consideration to the soft factors. What do y'all think?

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Re: Loyola LA 2.9 GPA 164

Postby fragged » Wed Apr 13, 2011 12:40 am

With your numbers, even if you got in to Loyola or Pepperdine, you would be paying sticker, and neither of those schools is worth anywhere near sticker. Honestly you might be better off applying T3 and getting some scholarship money. Unfortunately the only T3 schools in Southern California that aren't a joke are Southwestern and Chapman - both of which use an index to issue merit scholarships, so likely your 2.9 will kill your chances of scholarships there.

My experiences in southern California have been pretty bad. No one cared about my softs. Once I applied outside of California, I started getting accepted to schools ranked higher than Loyola and Pepperdine, at much lower tuition rates. I don't know if you're stuck on California, but there are MUCH better options out there if you are willing to apply out of state.

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Re: Loyola LA 2.9 GPA 164

Postby flexityflex86 » Wed Apr 13, 2011 1:16 am

fragged wrote:With your numbers, even if you got in to Loyola or Pepperdine, you would be paying sticker, and neither of those schools is worth anywhere near sticker. Honestly you might be better off applying T3 and getting some scholarship money. Unfortunately the only T3 schools in Southern California that aren't a joke are Southwestern and Chapman - both of which use an index to issue merit scholarships, so likely your 2.9 will kill your chances of scholarships there.

My experiences in southern California have been pretty bad. No one cared about my softs. Once I applied outside of California, I started getting accepted to schools ranked higher than Loyola and Pepperdine, at much lower tuition rates. I don't know if you're stuck on California, but there are MUCH better options out there if you are willing to apply out of state.

California seems to be more GPA conscious than the other states. The midwest seems to give the biggest schollies. I think you might have a shot at IU: B. The issue is that you have a very good but not great LSAT compared to the majority of the people that will be applying (this website is unrepresentative of the nationwide applicant deal who is highly less intelligent and hardworking), but a terrible GPA. Being under a 3 will always hurt you, and I just don't think a 164 is a strong enough score to get into these two tier schools who seem harder to get into than many tier 1s.

harocutter
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Re: Loyola LA 2.9 GPA 164

Postby harocutter » Wed Apr 13, 2011 6:17 pm

Why would those schools not be worth the sticker price? I think that if you graduate from either pepperdine or loyola in the top 25% you would have a shot at a 100k + job. Those schools can give you a shot at big firms or strong entertainment industries I think they would be worth the sticker as long as you succeed there.

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Re: Loyola LA 2.9 GPA 164

Postby AntipodeanPhil » Wed Apr 13, 2011 8:18 pm

harocutter wrote:Why would those schools not be worth the sticker price? I think that if you graduate from either pepperdine or loyola in the top 25% you would have a shot at a 100k + job. Those schools can give you a shot at big firms or strong entertainment industries I think they would be worth the sticker as long as you succeed there.


This post has interesting data:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=150681

From employment data collected by Loyola regarding the class of 2009, about 13% of Loyola graduates were known to be making over 100k 9 months after graduation. Only 20% were known to be making over 72k. A significantly larger percentage were only employed part-time. The numbers are slightly worse for Pepperdine.

Perhaps you are convinced you will be one of the 13%, but everyone going into these programs seems to believe that, and only 13% live up to their predictions. After all, because of the way law school admissions work, you will be competing against people with very similar academic credentials (LSAT scores, GPAs etc). Indeed, if you go there at sticker price, you will be competing with some people who have much better academic credentials and were offered $$$ to attend.

Loyola estimates cost of attendance (COA) is 69k per year. 69k x 3 = $207,000 debt, for less than a 1/8 shot of making 100k, and only about a 1/5 shot at making 72k, but a much greater chance of part-time employment or no employment at all.

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fragged
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Re: Loyola LA 2.9 GPA 164

Postby fragged » Thu Apr 14, 2011 1:59 am

harocutter wrote:Why would those schools not be worth the sticker price? I think that if you graduate from either pepperdine or loyola in the top 25% you would have a shot at a 100k + job. Those schools can give you a shot at big firms or strong entertainment industries I think they would be worth the sticker as long as you succeed there.


1. IF you graduate top 25%, which is never something you can bank on, you may get a good job.

2. Tuition is VERY expensive at Loyola and Pepperdine, and considering how much scholarship money there is floating around out there, going to a T2 at sticker may not be the most fiscally sharp thing to do.

3. $100k is not a lot of money when you're 200k in debt, and considering the cost of living in Los Angeles, which is likely where you'll be working with a degree from one of those 2 schools - that $100k will seem like even less.

This is just my $.02 by the way - I was ready to pay sticker until I realized how absurd the tuition was, which is one of the reasons I chose to go out of state and attend a state school with lower tuition. But if you're okay taking on that kind of debt, knowing that you'll be competing for all the high-paying jobs with grads from UCLA, USC, and everyone else from T14's who want to live in L.A., I say go for it.

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Re: Loyola LA 2.9 GPA 164

Postby flexityflex86 » Thu Apr 14, 2011 2:15 am

fragged wrote:
harocutter wrote:Why would those schools not be worth the sticker price? I think that if you graduate from either pepperdine or loyola in the top 25% you would have a shot at a 100k + job. Those schools can give you a shot at big firms or strong entertainment industries I think they would be worth the sticker as long as you succeed there.


1. IF you graduate top 25%, which is never something you can bank on, you may get a good job.

2. Tuition is VERY expensive at Loyola and Pepperdine, and considering how much scholarship money there is floating around out there, going to a T2 at sticker may not be the most fiscally sharp thing to do.

3. $100k is not a lot of money when you're 200k in debt, and considering the cost of living in Los Angeles, which is likely where you'll be working with a degree from one of those 2 schools - that $100k will seem like even less.

This is just my $.02 by the way - I was ready to pay sticker until I realized how absurd the tuition was, which is one of the reasons I chose to go out of state and attend a state school with lower tuition. But if you're okay taking on that kind of debt, knowing that you'll be competing for all the high-paying jobs with grads from UCLA, USC, and everyone else from T14's who want to live in L.A., I say go for it.

If he's single 200k in debt on a 10 year plan will look as follows with 100k.

Taxes = 35k
Loan Repayments = 24k

Base income = 31k

It is livable, but how much are you making now? You can also always do a 25 yr plan in which case you'd probably have 40-45k to play with.

flexityflex86
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Re: Loyola LA 2.9 GPA 164

Postby flexityflex86 » Thu Apr 14, 2011 2:21 am

AntipodeanPhil wrote:
harocutter wrote:Why would those schools not be worth the sticker price? I think that if you graduate from either pepperdine or loyola in the top 25% you would have a shot at a 100k + job. Those schools can give you a shot at big firms or strong entertainment industries I think they would be worth the sticker as long as you succeed there.


This post has interesting data:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=150681

From employment data collected by Loyola regarding the class of 2009, about 13% of Loyola graduates were known to be making over 100k 9 months after graduation. Only 20% were known to be making over 72k. A significantly larger percentage were only employed part-time. The numbers are slightly worse for Pepperdine.

Perhaps you are convinced you will be one of the 13%, but everyone going into these programs seems to believe that, and only 13% live up to their predictions. After all, because of the way law school admissions work, you will be competing against people with very similar academic credentials (LSAT scores, GPAs etc). Indeed, if you go there at sticker price, you will be competing with some people who have much better academic credentials and were offered $$$ to attend.

Loyola estimates cost of attendance (COA) is 69k per year. 69k x 3 = $207,000 debt, for less than a 1/8 shot of making 100k, and only about a 1/5 shot at making 72k, but a much greater chance of part-time employment or no employment at all.

On the part time figures, and I say this with all due respect, many times people meet their significant other in law school and wind up having children so part time works best with their lifestyle as they don't "need" the income. It seems logical to imagine this seems more likely to happen at tier 2s than tier 1s as such students have less of a drive to succeed on their own (lacking the grades and/or LSAT needed for it), and might be more inclined to stay in a particular region if they are already engaged/married as well as be more inclined to minimize debt if they are relying on sharing salaries with their SO.

Still, I agree 200k debt is a big risk when we only know 20% makes 72k. Then again, law is not a jump into wealth. It is a lifelong commitment. As long as you don't screw up, you'll have the ESQ after your name forever. It is kind of on you to turn that into cash. If you can't make an extra 200k over your life with the name ESQ after it, you are probably not very good at several things. Personally, the ESQ is worth substantially more for me than what currently is the most impressive thing to my name: made the JV basketball team in high school.

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Re: Loyola LA 2.9 GPA 164

Postby rose711 » Thu Apr 14, 2011 7:45 am

I hope after reading the comments here, you decide to rethink your application process. I'm trying to be supportive, but you seem a bit naive about the best way to get into the best school for you with your numbers. Please don't assume you will go to any school and get a job paying $100,000 so the debt won't matter to you. Even graduates of top schools may not get jobs like that - it is never a sure thing. The risks of you not getting that kind of job, or sometimes, any legal job, are high. How will you pay back your student loans then?

I also think that as a music major, you may have a tougher time adjusting to law school. I know that music takes talent, discipline and drive, so you have that in spades, my concern is that law classes may be extremely different from the classes you had as a music major. Possibly admission committees seeing your GPA may have the same concern. I wouldn't count on a music major with a low GPA as a soft in your favor.

Just consider opening your mind to applying to other schools - now you have some idea what one school is like, you probably need to learn about others. This site should be a great resource for you to learn how to maximize your opportunities even with your comparitively low GPA.

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Re: Loyola LA 2.9 GPA 164

Postby rose711 » Thu Apr 14, 2011 7:58 am

flexityflex86 wrote:
AntipodeanPhil wrote:
harocutter wrote:Why would those schools not be worth the sticker price? I think that if you graduate from either pepperdine or loyola in the top 25% you would have a shot at a 100k + job. Those schools can give you a shot at big firms or strong entertainment industries I think they would be worth the sticker as long as you succeed there.


This post has interesting data:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=150681

From employment data collected by Loyola regarding the class of 2009, about 13% of Loyola graduates were known to be making over 100k 9 months after graduation. Only 20% were known to be making over 72k. A significantly larger percentage were only employed part-time. The numbers are slightly worse for Pepperdine.

Perhaps you are convinced you will be one of the 13%, but everyone going into these programs seems to believe that, and only 13% live up to their predictions. After all, because of the way law school admissions work, you will be competing against people with very similar academic credentials (LSAT scores, GPAs etc). Indeed, if you go there at sticker price, you will be competing with some people who have much better academic credentials and were offered $$$ to attend.

Loyola estimates cost of attendance (COA) is 69k per year. 69k x 3 = $207,000 debt, for less than a 1/8 shot of making 100k, and only about a 1/5 shot at making 72k, but a much greater chance of part-time employment or no employment at all.

On the part time figures, and I say this with all due respect, many times people meet their significant other in law school and wind up having children so part time works best with their lifestyle as they don't "need" the income. It seems logical to imagine this seems more likely to happen at tier 2s than tier 1s as such students have less of a drive to succeed on their own (lacking the grades and/or LSAT needed for it), and might be more inclined to stay in a particular region if they are already engaged/married as well as be more inclined to minimize debt if they are relying on sharing salaries with their SO.

Still, I agree 200k debt is a big risk when we only know 20% makes 72k. Then again, law is not a jump into wealth. It is a lifelong commitment. As long as you don't screw up, you'll have the ESQ after your name forever. It is kind of on you to turn that into cash. If you can't make an extra 200k over your life with the name ESQ after it, you are probably not very good at several things. Personally, the ESQ is worth substantially more for me than what currently is the most impressive thing to my name: made the JV basketball team in high school.


Flexityflex86: I don't understand what you are saying. Do you mean that the people working part time are doing that by choice so they can stay home with the kids instead of practicing law full-time? I think that the part-time numbers reflect people who can't find full time jobs.

I hope that law school and law works out for you, but I am not sure that it is a good idea to encourage other people to take out debt that the numbers show they are unlikely to be able to repay.

I guess as this isn't my thread, you don't really need to reply. Just didn't understand what your were saying.

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AntipodeanPhil
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Re: Loyola LA 2.9 GPA 164

Postby AntipodeanPhil » Thu Apr 14, 2011 9:42 am

flexityflex86 wrote:On the part time figures, and I say this with all due respect, many times people meet their significant other in law school and wind up having children so part time works best with their lifestyle as they don't "need" the income.


I'm having the same trouble as Rose understanding this. Let's suppose OP goes to Loyola at sticker (which is likely, because his numbers are low) and comes out with $150,000 - $200,000 debt. You are claiming that there is a good chance he won't need a full-time job after graduation because he will end up marrying someone in law school?

He still has to make payments on the debt - somebody else estimated those, above. Unless harocutter marries a millionaire, how does marriage help? My guess is that you are trying to justify your decision, not harocutter's.

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Re: Loyola LA 2.9 GPA 164

Postby fragged » Thu Apr 14, 2011 2:11 pm

Paying $200k in debt is doable, but you never know what life will throw at you... My beef with paying sticker at schools like Loyola is that I don't think the job prospects are THAT much better than they are from regional TTT schools that will likely offer up some scholarship money. Remember, tuition at Loyola is $42,500. That is high, REALLY high.

harocutter
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Re: Loyola LA 2.9 GPA 164

Postby harocutter » Fri Apr 15, 2011 1:20 am

I believe that in the long term Loyola will give me a better opportunity for getting into a large firm. I'm not concerned about the price of tuition, too much, because I know that if I get in I will be one of the 40 students who can get 100+ k jobs. Also, big firms that hire from Loyola will allow you to make over 200,000 after the first 5 years. I also will be living at home and commuting to Loyola which saves me some cash. The point is, a school like Loyola is my glass ceiling and even if I pay sticker price it will give me the best job opportunities available to a guy like me. A 180,000 loan is a small price to pay for a 30 + year career. It seems like people are saying that just because you don't qualify for scholarships you shouldn't attend that school. I say go to the best school you can, work hard and you will be rewarded in the end. Can I get some positive advice lol.

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Re: Loyola LA 2.9 GPA 164

Postby harocutter » Fri Apr 15, 2011 1:25 am

Forgot to add, Loyola tuition is 42,500 not 67,000. Even with books and other expenses it's 45,000.




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