Chances?

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bluecanary622
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Re: 3.87 undergrad, 3.91 grad, 166 LSAT -- Chances?

Postby bluecanary622 » Tue Feb 08, 2011 9:52 pm

r6_philly wrote:
bluecanary622 wrote:This is really odd. a 3.87 is .03 from a 3.9... and I graduated summa cum laude. While working full time. From a top school. I reallllllly don't think GPA is going to be an issue.

And what is the issue with softs? Just to be clear so that I can improve my application if I decide to wait a year.
Right now what I have is:
* Extensive political campaign experience
* 3+ years nonprofit work experience, management level
* A MA degree in a relevant field, 3.91 GPA
* Published, thesis relevant to my area of interest for law school
* Extensive volunteer work

How could I improve for next years application process?


The best and only improvement you can make is to retake the LSAT. You already have a lot, it isn't going to do much more for you.

I have a lot more (and subjectively better) softs than you, but I am not really out performing my numbers.



What are your softs? I'd like to be able to understand what the "best" softs are for law school.

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Patriot1208
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Re: 3.87 undergrad, 3.91 grad, 166 LSAT -- Chances?

Postby Patriot1208 » Tue Feb 08, 2011 9:52 pm

OP, first, there is no issue with your softs, they just aren't special compared to other uva applicants. Secondly, your lsat is, relatively, bad. Being a resident helps this but your gpa is the other major factor. Very few people have success with a 166 at t14 schools, but those that do generally have gpa's a good bit higher than yours. And before you ask, yes, .05 and .1 are very meaningful differences at this level. To clarify, i'm not saying you have zero chance or shouldn't apply, simply that my opinion is you have a very small chance and will likely be shut out of everything ahead of UCLA.
Last edited by Patriot1208 on Tue Feb 08, 2011 10:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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deadpoetnsp
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Re: 3.87 undergrad, 3.91 grad, 166 LSAT -- Chances?

Postby deadpoetnsp » Tue Feb 08, 2011 9:54 pm

bluecanary622 wrote:the best i can do is #20? Just bc my LSAT? Which for the record... a 166 in about the 93rd-94th percentile, right?!


A 166 is the 93-94 percentile for all LSAT takers. The average T14 has about 5000 applicants for about 200 seats. The ideal case would be: each LSAT taker applies to all law schools, and so being in the top 6-7% of test takers means you should get at least one seat out of the 12-14 seats in your percentile band.

Unfortunately, applicants are far from ideal. Firstly, a large number of LSAT takers won't apply to law school. So now your 94 percentile looks a lot more like a 75 percentile. Secondly, many applicants to T14's have a 170+ LSAT. So you are really competing with people in the 99th percentile. In other words, now your 75 percentile looks a lot more like a 50 percentile. That's the harsh reality. That explains the median and the 25/75 percentile LSAT scores at T14 schools.

Don't be fooled by 25 percentile LSATs like 166-167. Even Stanford has a 25 percentile LSAT of 167. What it really means is that EACH of those applicants either had a) 4.0 gpa b) URM c) incredibly great softs (like Olympic sports, publishing a few novels, selling their business for a million, things like that)

The good news is, a 166 should get you a decent T20-T50 with a good scholarship.

r6_philly
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Re: 3.87 undergrad, 3.91 grad, 166 LSAT -- Chances?

Postby r6_philly » Tue Feb 08, 2011 9:55 pm

bluecanary622 wrote:
What are your softs? I'd like to be able to understand what the "best" softs are for law school.


I don't have the best softs, I just have everything you have but more, and other stuff you don't. The best soft you can have is probably HYP undergrad + good grades.

bluecanary622
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Re: 3.87 undergrad, 3.91 grad, 166 LSAT -- Chances?

Postby bluecanary622 » Tue Feb 08, 2011 10:08 pm

Flustercluck wrote:Is 3.87 your LDAS GPA?


No, my UGPA--but it shouldn't be much different. I never took any courses at any other schools and my college as just on a regular 4.0 scale and there were no A+s

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Patriot1208
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Re: 3.87 undergrad, 3.91 grad, 166 LSAT -- Chances?

Postby Patriot1208 » Tue Feb 08, 2011 10:12 pm

bluecanary622 wrote:
Flustercluck wrote:Is 3.87 your LDAS GPA?


No, my UGPA--but it shouldn't be much different. I never took any courses at any other schools and my college as just on a regular 4.0 scale and there were no A+s


If your school uses 3.7 for A- instead of 3.67 and you have a decent amount of A-'s, your gpa could drop to 3.85~. And, if it goes below that threshold (which is median at UVA), you have basically no chance at UVA.

bluecanary622
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Re: 3.87 undergrad, 3.91 grad, 166 LSAT -- Chances?

Postby bluecanary622 » Tue Feb 08, 2011 10:20 pm

deadpoetnsp wrote:
bluecanary622 wrote:the best i can do is #20? Just bc my LSAT? Which for the record... a 166 in about the 93rd-94th percentile, right?!


A 166 is the 93-94 percentile for all LSAT takers. The average T14 has about 5000 applicants for about 200 seats. The ideal case would be: each LSAT taker applies to all law schools, and so being in the top 6-7% of test takers means you should get at least one seat out of the 12-14 seats in your percentile band.

Unfortunately, applicants are far from ideal. Firstly, a large number of LSAT takers won't apply to law school. So now your 94 percentile looks a lot more like a 75 percentile. Secondly, many applicants to T14's have a 170+ LSAT. So you are really competing with people in the 99th percentile. In other words, now your 75 percentile looks a lot more like a 50 percentile. That's the harsh reality. That explains the median and the 25/75 percentile LSAT scores at T14 schools.

Don't be fooled by 25 percentile LSATs like 166-167. Even Stanford has a 25 percentile LSAT of 167. What it really means is that EACH of those applicants either had a) 4.0 gpa b) URM c) incredibly great softs (like Olympic sports, publishing a few novels, selling their business for a million, things like that)

The good news is, a 166 should get you a decent T20-T50 with a good scholarship.


So, let me see if i've got this right. i really want to understand this. So, UVA enrolls about 355 students each year. 25% of those students score a 166 or below. That is 86 students. So all 86 of those students, you claim, are either Olympians, millionaires, novelists, or minorities?

And working as a key staff member on Obama's presidential primary campaign, working as a manager for 3 years at a well known international nonprofit organization, getting a graduate degree while working full time and maintaining a 3.91 GPA, and publishing your graduate work in several prominent journals... that is all "not very much soft material"?

So pretty much... unless you are an Olympic athlete, millionaire, novelist, actor or actress, famous in some way, or a URM... you need above a 170 LSAT score (at minimum) for a chance?

I'm really not being sarcastic at all, I am truly trying to understand because that is what it appears that you are saying.

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Flustercluck
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Re: 3.87 undergrad, 3.91 grad, 166 LSAT -- Chances?

Postby Flustercluck » Tue Feb 08, 2011 10:31 pm

bluecanary622 wrote:And working as a key staff member on Obama's presidential primary campaign, working as a manager for 3 years at a well known international nonprofit organization, getting a graduate degree while working full time and maintaining a 3.91 GPA, and publishing your graduate work in several prominent journals... that is all "not very much soft material"?


STOP WHINING

Go to Law School Numbers. Look at the schools you want and where you fall on the acceptance graphs. 3.87/166 is a good combination, but for T14 it's not a given.

I know it sucks to hear you aren't a beautiful snowflake with amazing softs, but that's the reality of admissions. Look on LSN at all the Green, Yellow, and Red Markers with better GPA/LSAT than you. You're applying to the same school that all the other beautiful snowflakes are, thousands of whom have better numbers than you. These schools are obsessed with their medians, and if you are not above at least one of them, you could hurt their USNWR rankings. It doesn't matter whether that's fair, it's how the game is played. Softs can push over a borderline applicant, but everyone has softs, and many of them will be better than yours. You are not special. Accept that, and plan your applications accordingly.

If you want T14 then UVA ED is your best bet with your numbers as-is, specifically because you have residency. But if your LDAS GPA drops even a tenth, yes, that could rule you out.

That said, the purpose of all these comments is not to discourage you. It is, however, meant to help you understand the reality of your situation. Throw apps everywhere from Berkeley on down and at least one of 6-14 will probably bite. But if you want certainty, that requires a higher LSAT.

r6_philly
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Re: 3.87 undergrad, 3.91 grad, 166 LSAT -- Chances?

Postby r6_philly » Tue Feb 08, 2011 10:41 pm

bluecanary622 wrote:
So pretty much... unless you are an Olympic athlete, millionaire, novelist, actor or actress, famous in some way, or a URM... you need above a 170 LSAT score (at minimum) for a chance?

I'm really not being sarcastic at all, I am truly trying to understand because that is what it appears that you are saying.


Actually, I sort of have that, and I still need a 170 ;) (plus all the academic stuff).

Not here to debate whether or not it's right, it is what it is.

r6_philly
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Re: 3.87 undergrad, 3.91 grad, 166 LSAT -- Chances?

Postby r6_philly » Tue Feb 08, 2011 10:45 pm

Patriot1208 wrote:
bluecanary622 wrote:
Flustercluck wrote:Is 3.87 your LDAS GPA?


No, my UGPA--but it shouldn't be much different. I never took any courses at any other schools and my college as just on a regular 4.0 scale and there were no A+s


If your school uses 3.7 for A- instead of 3.67 and you have a decent amount of A-'s, your gpa could drop to 3.85~. And, if it goes below that threshold (which is median at UVA), you have basically no chance at UVA.


And this. 3.87 you have a shot, 3.84 you have no shot.

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deadpoetnsp
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Re: 3.87 undergrad, 3.91 grad, 166 LSAT -- Chances?

Postby deadpoetnsp » Tue Feb 08, 2011 11:07 pm

bluecanary622 wrote:So, let me see if i've got this right. i really want to understand this. So, UVA enrolls about 355 students each year. 25% of those students score a 166 or below. That is 86 students. So all 86 of those students, you claim, are either Olympians, millionaires, novelists, or minorities?
...
I'm really not being sarcastic at all, I am truly trying to understand because that is what it appears that you are saying.


Yes. Those 86 students are either mostly URMS, or they have a 4.0, or have extraordinary softs. And this is simply because we are talking about T14 schools. There are 200 law schools in the US, give or take. The top 14 means the top 7% percentile of law schools.

There are hundreds of universities, each with dozens of undergrad majors. Thus there is a significant number of students with a 3.8+ GPA. Many of these students go on to law school. Further, most of the 170+ LSAT crowd is targeting T14 schools.

In 2009-2010, slightly more than 170K students took the LSAT. Yes, slightly over 171514. (source: http://www.numberof.net/number-of-lsat-takers). A 166 LSAT or a 93 percentile means there are 12000 applicants with the same or better LSAT than you. Yes, 12000. And there are thousands more who have a better GPA than you. Say the total number of applicants with a better or equal LSAT or a better or equal GPA than yours is 12000 + 3000 = 15000.

You have 15000 applicants (keep in mind that these are the top applicants) who want to get into the top 14 schools with around 14*200 = 2800 seats. Even rounding it up by a large margin, say some T14s having larger class sizes, taking the total to 5000, you are just one of 15000 fighting for these 5000 seats.

That's why a 166 LSAT will get you admitted to a T20 to T50 (that too, just because your GPA is 3.7+). T10? Snowflake's chance in hell.

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deadpoetnsp
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Re: 3.87 undergrad, 3.91 grad, 166 LSAT -- Chances?

Postby deadpoetnsp » Tue Feb 08, 2011 11:10 pm

deadpoetnsp wrote:That's why a 166 LSAT will get you admitted to a T20 to T50 (that too, just because your GPA is 3.7+). T10? Snowflake's chance in hell.


I should qualify this and say that if you ED, then it's a different game. If you are a VA resident, and if you ED to UVA, then you have a large snowball's chance in hell.

sissyclark
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Re: 3.87 undergrad, 3.91 grad, 166 LSAT -- Chances?

Postby sissyclark » Tue Feb 08, 2011 11:17 pm

OP, you dont' have to keep on reciting your work experience. We get that you're proud of it. But soft factors only count when you're within a range. You might get into GW, but everything else is a semi-long shot. Your GPA is strong, but your LSAT is relatively weak. I know you've said several times that it's 93-94 percentile, but yes, there are THAT many people with LSATs better than yours.

Good luck during the cycle.

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Veyron
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Re: 3.87 undergrad, 3.91 grad, 166 LSAT -- Chances?

Postby Veyron » Tue Feb 08, 2011 11:18 pm

r6_philly wrote:166 might get Penn/Michigan. But UVA is TCR for resident.


Michigan maybe. OP will not get Penn

And FWIW r6, you know I predict penn with 100% accuracy :wink:

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francisConn
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Re: 3.87 undergrad, 3.91 grad, 166 LSAT -- Chances?

Postby francisConn » Tue Feb 08, 2011 11:19 pm

If we're talking T14, then I'd say OP has a shot at Cornell, maybe even Duke.

That being said, in an ideal world you could trade in half those softs for even just two extra LSAT points and you'd be in much better shape.

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ndirish2010
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Re: 3.87 undergrad, 3.91 grad, 166 LSAT -- Chances?

Postby ndirish2010 » Tue Feb 08, 2011 11:21 pm

I know someone with almost identical stats that got into Michigan...but that was in the 2006 cycle. FWIW (not much) he chose a T25 and is now an associate at a V10 in NYC.

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Veyron
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Re: 3.87 undergrad, 3.91 grad, 166 LSAT -- Chances?

Postby Veyron » Tue Feb 08, 2011 11:22 pm

ndirish2010 wrote:I know someone with almost identical stats that got into Michigan...but that was in the 2006 cycle. FWIW (not much) he chose a T25 and is now an associate at a V10 in NYC.


Ah, CO 2009, the halcyon days of law.

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ndirish2010
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Re: 3.87 undergrad, 3.91 grad, 166 LSAT -- Chances?

Postby ndirish2010 » Tue Feb 08, 2011 11:23 pm

Veyron wrote:
ndirish2010 wrote:I know someone with almost identical stats that got into Michigan...but that was in the 2006 cycle. FWIW (not much) he chose a T25 and is now an associate at a V10 in NYC.


Ah, CO 2009, the halcyon days of law.


Yep. I got kinda sad just writing that post, but the numbers just hit me in the face when I saw them.

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Re: 3.87 undergrad, 3.91 grad, 166 LSAT -- Chances?

Postby pjo » Tue Feb 08, 2011 11:43 pm

bluecanary622 wrote:So, let me see if i've got this right. i really want to understand this. So, UVA enrolls about 355 students each year. 25% of those students score a 166 or below. That is 86 students. So all 86 of those students, you claim, are either Olympians, millionaires, novelists, or minorities?

And working as a key staff member on Obama's presidential primary campaign, working as a manager for 3 years at a well known international nonprofit organization, getting a graduate degree while working full time and maintaining a 3.91 GPA, and publishing your graduate work in several prominent journals... that is all "not very much soft material"?

So pretty much... unless you are an Olympic athlete, millionaire, novelist, actor or actress, famous in some way, or a URM... you need above a 170 LSAT score (at minimum) for a chance?

I'm really not being sarcastic at all, I am truly trying to understand because that is what it appears that you are saying.


OP. Just for your reference, this is UVA's admitted students site for next year's class: --LinkRemoved-- . On the right of the page under classmates flip through the ppl listed. It's safe to assume that they're ED applicants because they have already committed to attending. Look at their credentials/softs and you'll see why ppl are saying what you have done isn't as outstanding as what you may thinking, relatively speaking.
With that said, I got into UVA even though just about everyone on here said I wouldn’t be able to, so I really wouldn’t necessarily rule things out just because ppl say you have no chance.

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Re: 3.87 undergrad, 3.91 grad, 166 LSAT -- Chances?

Postby Cupidity » Tue Feb 08, 2011 11:46 pm

* Columbia - N
* UVA - ED Yes / Otherwise N
* Duke - N
* Georgetown - N
* George Washington - $15k/yr
* Boston University - $15k/yr
* William & Mary - WL
* Boston College - $20k/yr
* UNC - Y in state/ WL out
* George Mason / WL
* Brooklyn Law / Y + $$$

r6_philly
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Re: 3.87 undergrad, 3.91 grad, 166 LSAT -- Chances?

Postby r6_philly » Tue Feb 08, 2011 11:47 pm

pjo wrote:OP. Just for your reference, this is UVA's admitted students site for next year's class: --LinkRemoved-- . On the right of the page under classmates flip through the ppl listed.


I haven't committed yet, but I wonder what they would put up for me if I was. Good job at UVa BTW. See you in March?

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pjo
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Re: 3.87 undergrad, 3.91 grad, 166 LSAT -- Chances?

Postby pjo » Tue Feb 08, 2011 11:51 pm

r6_philly wrote:
pjo wrote:OP. Just for your reference, this is UVA's admitted students site for next year's class: --LinkRemoved-- . On the right of the page under classmates flip through the ppl listed.


I haven't committed yet, but I wonder what they would put up for me if I was. Good job at UVa BTW. See you in March?


Thanks, I'll be at the one in April, I couldn't get off work for March. I've wondered the same thing (for me). I wonder how they went about picking ppl for the profiles.

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Re: 3.87 undergrad, 3.91 grad, 166 LSAT -- Chances?

Postby paulinaporizkova » Wed Feb 09, 2011 6:44 pm

Veyron wrote:
r6_philly wrote:166 might get Penn/Michigan. But UVA is TCR for resident.


Michigan maybe. OP will not get Penn

And FWIW r6, you know I predict penn with 100% accuracy :wink:


isn't HeavenWood a 166 ED to Penn?

r6_philly
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Re: 3.87 undergrad, 3.91 grad, 166 LSAT -- Chances?

Postby r6_philly » Wed Feb 09, 2011 6:45 pm

yup.

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Veyron
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Re: 3.87 undergrad, 3.91 grad, 166 LSAT -- Chances?

Postby Veyron » Thu Feb 10, 2011 12:06 am

paulinaporizkova wrote:
Veyron wrote:
r6_philly wrote:166 might get Penn/Michigan. But UVA is TCR for resident.


Michigan maybe. OP will not get Penn

And FWIW r6, you know I predict penn with 100% accuracy :wink:


isn't HeavenWood a 166 ED to Penn?


Legacy me thinks.




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