3.5/164/166

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ballpop
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3.5/164/166

Postby ballpop » Fri Jan 07, 2011 3:27 am

December LSAT

Did LSN and LSP already--looking for sorta TLS percentage chances at some of these schools (not so much in out as in for sure, 50/50, small chance no chance etc)

Chances at

Northwestern (2 yrs exp)
Cornell
Duke
Georgetown
Vanderbilt
WUSTL
UT
BU
BC
Fordham
GWU
American
William and Mary

Thanks all!

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Lawquacious
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Re: 3.5/164/166

Postby Lawquacious » Fri Jan 07, 2011 3:33 am

I think you have a shot at BU/BC and down (or maybe WUSTL and down). Other than that I don't think so. Partial schollys at lower T1 definitely possible or likely. Little to no shot at T14, and with your GPA little shot at Texas I think (unless you're from Texas- that might give you a better chance).

I'd say retake a 3rd time in Feb if you're set on starting law school in 2011 on the chance it could open better options (esp. if you are set on T14), otherwise it may be worth retaking in June.

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Grizz
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Re: 3.5/164/166

Postby Grizz » Fri Jan 07, 2011 3:34 am

ballpop wrote:Northwestern (2 yrs exp)
Cornell
Duke
Georgetown
Vanderbilt
WUSTL
UT
BU

BC - if you're lucky
Fordham
GWU
American
William and Mary


You'll get WL at a bunch of those, but WL is often a soft reject. Apply to Emory.

ballpop
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Re: 3.5/164/166

Postby ballpop » Fri Jan 07, 2011 3:41 am

Lawquacious wrote:I think you have a shot at BU/BC and down (or maybe WUSTL and down). Other than that I don't think so. Partial schollys at lower T1 definitely possible or likely. Little to no shot at T14, and with your GPA little shot at Texas I think (unless you're from Texas- that might give you a better chance).

I'd say retake a 3rd time in Feb if you're set on starting law school in 2011 on the chance it could open better options (esp. if you are set on T14), otherwise it may be worth retaking in June.


Not set on T14---unsure if I could retake and not decline score wise (I would have had a shot at a 169 if I didn't fuck up and miss filling in random bubbles on the last section)

Seems like it's a little unknown here---will look at Emory (I freaking HATED ATL though)

Also applied to Temple, Kent, Cardozo/Brooklyn (contingent schollies though)....chances at schollies this late in the game (went complete very late in Dec/right after the New Year)

Also would be shooting for a transfer no matter where I go, though that isn't really relevant

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dpk711
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Re: 3.5/164/166

Postby dpk711 » Fri Jan 07, 2011 3:50 am

Northwestern (2 yrs exp) -out
Cornell - out
Duke - out
Georgetown - out
Vanderbilt - out
WUSTL - out
UT - out
BU - out
BC - shot
Fordham - WL
GWU - out
American - in
William and Mary - WL

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Lawquacious
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Re: 3.5/164/166

Postby Lawquacious » Fri Jan 07, 2011 4:00 am

ballpop wrote:
Lawquacious wrote:I think you have a shot at BU/BC and down (or maybe WUSTL and down). Other than that I don't think so. Partial schollys at lower T1 definitely possible or likely. Little to no shot at T14, and with your GPA little shot at Texas I think (unless you're from Texas- that might give you a better chance).

I'd say retake a 3rd time in Feb if you're set on starting law school in 2011 on the chance it could open better options (esp. if you are set on T14), otherwise it may be worth retaking in June.


Not set on T14---unsure if I could retake and not decline score wise (I would have had a shot at a 169 if I didn't fuck up and miss filling in random bubbles on the last section)

Seems like it's a little unknown here---will look at Emory (I freaking HATED ATL though)

Also applied to Temple, Kent, Cardozo/Brooklyn (contingent schollies though)....chances at schollies this late in the game (went complete very late in Dec/right after the New Year)

Also would be shooting for a transfer no matter where I go, though that isn't really relevant



I've come to think that it should be standard to take the LSAT the full three times unless someone starts out at 175+, because there is room for likely improvement with additional study, and also because frankly I think how the actual test day goes is at least partly luck of the draw. In my practicing anyway, I had major jumps after not studying at all sometimes, so even if you don't study at all and take February I think you could go higher. Of course maybe not, but I doubt it would hurt you if you scored the same or a little bit lower (can't guarantee that either obv, but I really think for the most part schools only care about your highest since that is what they have to report).

In terms of the plan to transfer: my emphatic advice is DON'T (plan on it). I say this based on experience. Actually, I am your numbers twin (your higher LSAT and same GPA; I only took the LSAT once). I am on more than 1/2 ride at lower T1 (around 40). I applied to a bunch of T14 just for the heck of it (all rejects); if I had known how much of a numbers game admissions is I prob wouldn't have bothered (and would have retaken the LSAT in Feb after taking it the first time in Dec, even though I don't feel I had enough time to study to the point that increase was likely; as much as I wanted to start law school this past year- which I did- I maybe would have put off another year just to take again in June to give me the best chance of breaking T14).

I came to where I am at feeling fairly comfortable with the idea of graduating from here and feeling good about my scholly, but I really was aiming for T14. Grades at law school can be unpredictable: even though during the semester I felt like I was toward the top of each class in terms of comprehension (based on my interactions with others and class discussions), I totally botched my approach to one exam, and the other two I am waiting for results back on are up in the air. I feel like overall I performed fairly well on them, but there is a lot of subjectivity involved in the grading process. Also, at least at my school, the grading system itself sucks and is enough to potentially screw someone (they only do whole letter grades). So even though I came in feeling like I would be happy to graduate from here (and I def plan to stay if I can't transfer), my heart has been fairly set on transferring from early on because I was really aiming high. I am really having to come to terms with the fact that that may not be an option, and even if it does end up being an option, the strong hope of transferring (which essentially became a plan) has caused me extra stress in law school.

Anyway, my 2 cents. The best way you can improve your chances at a highly-ranked school is to retake the LSAT. Whatever school you do go to, I would get the idea out of your head that you can plan on a transfer. Law school grading and exams are just too unpredictable IMO. And this is coming from someone who was above 75% percentile LSAT listing of school I am at and who feels like intellectually I am among the most capable at the school even if grades don't seem to fully reflect that.
Last edited by Lawquacious on Fri Jan 07, 2011 4:27 am, edited 2 times in total.

ballpop
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Re: 3.5/164/166

Postby ballpop » Fri Jan 07, 2011 4:05 am

Oh I'm not expecting it, sorry if it seemed that way. I'm just saying that I will go to a school I am comfortable with, and then I'll apply not expecting anything.

Any other schools I should look at?

I'm a bit of a city boy, no love for the west coast, but I could see a smaller city if it isn't suburban (say like Philly or Twin Cities size)

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Lawquacious
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Re: 3.5/164/166

Postby Lawquacious » Fri Jan 07, 2011 4:12 am

ballpop wrote:Also would be shooting for a transfer no matter where I go, though that isn't really relevant


ballpop wrote:Oh I'm not expecting it, sorry if it seemed that way. I'm just saying that I will go to a school I am comfortable with, and then I'll apply not expecting anything.


The quote at top def did give that impression. Anyway, just trying to save you some potential misery, but at this point it sounds like you're set on applying and moving on so I can understand that. It's just that if you accept something you're not fully comfortable with it could haunt you, and also you may not be in a position to apply for transfer if your 1L grades don't come out how you want them to (unless you wanted to waste transfer app money).

But I think you'll def get some relatively good schools with your numbers: you could try U of MN, but you'll prob be waitlisted. If you're really interested though, you could ride the waitlist if you don't get an outright rejection, and keep expressing interest; I think you might end up getting lucky there.

ballpop
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Re: 3.5/164/166

Postby ballpop » Fri Jan 07, 2011 4:28 am

I can see how you could think that from what I said but I have a relatively non-TLS mindset---I really want to be a lawyer, have absolutely no prestige-whoring instinct (hell, I left the country for school and turned down a pretty good consulting job because I wanted to travel before my career) and think 50k is a damned good salary. Also I really don't live with regrets.

I would just like to put myself in a better place if I have a chance, but with my numbers and goals I think I should be alright even if I don't transfer. I will take your advice into consideration (probably just concentrate on grades etc and THEN consider transferring)

I will look into U MN---do they have a pipeline into Chicago or is it all Twin Cities Duluth etc

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dpk711
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Re: 3.5/164/166

Postby dpk711 » Fri Jan 07, 2011 4:30 am

ballpop wrote:I can see how you could think that from what I said but I have a relatively non-TLS mindset---I really want to be a lawyer, have absolutely no prestige-whoring instinct (hell, I left the country for school and turned down a pretty good consulting job because I wanted to travel before my career) and think 50k is a damned good salary. Also I really don't live with regrets.

I would just like to put myself in a better place if I have a chance, but with my numbers and goals I think I should be alright even if I don't transfer. I will take your advice into consideration (probably just concentrate on grades etc and THEN consider transferring)

I will look into U MN---do they have a pipeline into Chicago or is it all Twin Cities Duluth etc


$50K is a crap salary after taxes and if you are six-digits into debt...

ballpop
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Re: 3.5/164/166

Postby ballpop » Fri Jan 07, 2011 4:44 am

dpk711 wrote:
ballpop wrote:I can see how you could think that from what I said but I have a relatively non-TLS mindset---I really want to be a lawyer, have absolutely no prestige-whoring instinct (hell, I left the country for school and turned down a pretty good consulting job because I wanted to travel before my career) and think 50k is a damned good salary. Also I really don't live with regrets.

I would just like to put myself in a better place if I have a chance, but with my numbers and goals I think I should be alright even if I don't transfer. I will take your advice into consideration (probably just concentrate on grades etc and THEN consider transferring)

I will look into U MN---do they have a pipeline into Chicago or is it all Twin Cities Duluth etc


$50K is a crap salary after taxes and if you are six-digits into debt...


I won't be six figures into debt---got some nice 529 action and a bank account on the rise (moved in with family and gave up the pricey apt to save up) Even if I go to Fordham full price I will have just under six figure debt

And 50k after taxes with debt service on something like 60-80k (so around 1k a month) is certainly a good salary for a single person, at least for those of us with perspective. After 800 in debt service and 200-300 in health insurance, you'd be taking home around 2500. I've lived in NYC for about that. Yes I wouldn't be putting money into my retirement, but if that is the worst case scenario, I am better off than most
Last edited by ballpop on Fri Jan 07, 2011 4:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Lawquacious
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Re: 3.5/164/166

Postby Lawquacious » Fri Jan 07, 2011 4:45 am

ballpop wrote:I can see how you could think that from what I said but I have a relatively non-TLS mindset---I really want to be a lawyer, have absolutely no prestige-whoring instinct (hell, I left the country for school and turned down a pretty good consulting job because I wanted to travel before my career) and think 50k is a damned good salary. Also I really don't live with regrets.

I would just like to put myself in a better place if I have a chance, but with my numbers and goals I think I should be alright even if I don't transfer. I will take your advice into consideration (probably just concentrate on grades etc and THEN consider transferring)

I will look into U MN---do they have a pipeline into Chicago or is it all Twin Cities Duluth etc



I think that U of MN places mostly in Twin Cities, but I'm pretty sure they do have some BigLaw connects in Chicago and NY. In going to any non-T14 school I think you should be comfortable with the idea of staying where you are for a while, because that is where you will likely get the best job (even for T14 schools I'm sure there is a least somewhat of a regional placement bias, but those schools have more reach than other schools). Similar to the transfer thing, I wouldn't go to law school counting on BigLaw.

I think its good not to be too focused on prestige (I admit I am too focused on it myself, and this site DEFINITELY does not help in that regard). At least for me, that is what has fueled the desire to transfer though- honestly, I don't think it even would make financial sense for me to transfer from where I am (to lower T14 anyway): I'll be giving up a scholarship, and although recruiting goes deeper into the T14, the students are also much tougher to compete with. For me the transfer would be largely for prestige and family-legacy. Yet I still have been pretty set on it. I suppose I had the impression that that was a big motivator for you too. Anyway, I've given more than enough of my feedback about the transfer thing at this point.

ballpop
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Re: 3.5/164/166

Postby ballpop » Fri Jan 07, 2011 4:47 am

Thanks for your help Lawquacious

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Lawquacious
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Re: 3.5/164/166

Postby Lawquacious » Fri Jan 07, 2011 4:49 am

ballpop wrote:Thanks for your help Lawquacious


No prob- good luck, and if you want you can PM me. I can give you feedback on how my cycle went that might be relevant to you (since I applied with your numbers; I did apply to U of MN and was waitlisted, but I had decided I didn't want to be in MN so I withdrew from consideration immediately).

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Grizz
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Re: 3.5/164/166

Postby Grizz » Fri Jan 07, 2011 2:45 pm

ballpop wrote:Also would be shooting for a transfer no matter where I go, though that isn't really relevant


As mentioned above, don't plan on transferring because 80% chance you won't be able to transfer anywhere worthwhile from the schools that you get into with your numbers.

Also, many people are T14 or bust oriented, because from a school like Minnesota, whose Chi biglaw placement has dried up, and there aren't a ton of jobs in Minnesota, many people in the class would kill for $50k. There is a not insignificant chance of graduating jobless or underemployed.

ballpop
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Re: 3.5/164/166

Postby ballpop » Fri Jan 07, 2011 3:50 pm

rad law wrote:
ballpop wrote:Also would be shooting for a transfer no matter where I go, though that isn't really relevant


As mentioned above, don't plan on transferring because 80% chance you won't be able to transfer anywhere worthwhile from the schools that you get into with your numbers.

Also, many people are T14 or bust oriented, because from a school like Minnesota, whose Chi biglaw placement has dried up, and there aren't a ton of jobs in Minnesota, many people in the class would kill for $50k. There is a not insignificant chance of graduating jobless or underemployed.


Any proof? I hear this thrown around all the time, but I actually don't know ONE recent graduate who is jobless, from any school

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Grizz
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Re: 3.5/164/166

Postby Grizz » Fri Jan 07, 2011 3:52 pm

ballpop wrote:
rad law wrote:
ballpop wrote:Also would be shooting for a transfer no matter where I go, though that isn't really relevant


As mentioned above, don't plan on transferring because 80% chance you won't be able to transfer anywhere worthwhile from the schools that you get into with your numbers.

Also, many people are T14 or bust oriented, because from a school like Minnesota, whose Chi biglaw placement has dried up, and there aren't a ton of jobs in Minnesota, many people in the class would kill for $50k. There is a not insignificant chance of graduating jobless or underemployed.


Any proof? I hear this thrown around all the time, but I actually don't know ONE recent graduate who is jobless, from any school


Look harder. UF is the best school in FL. Saw an unemployed UF kid the other day. People graduate from my 15-17 ranked school unemployed.

CHECK YOU SAMPLE SIZE

ballpop
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Re: 3.5/164/166

Postby ballpop » Fri Jan 07, 2011 4:00 pm

rad law wrote:
Look harder. UF is the best school in FL. Saw an unemployed UF kid the other day. People graduate from my 15-17 ranked school unemployed.

CHECK YOU SAMPLE SIZE


How does this prove "not insignificant" amounts of grads are unemployed/begging for 50k jobs?

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Grizz
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Re: 3.5/164/166

Postby Grizz » Fri Jan 07, 2011 4:05 pm

ballpop wrote:
rad law wrote:
Look harder. UF is the best school in FL. Saw an unemployed UF kid the other day. People graduate from my 15-17 ranked school unemployed.

CHECK YOU SAMPLE SIZE


How does this prove "not insignificant" amounts of grads are unemployed/begging for 50k jobs?


The problem is, it's hard to know. Schools release terrible/massaged statistics. It's all anecdotal. But trust me, ask people for candid assessments of law schools you are considering. I did. It wasn't pretty for quite a few of the schools I was looking at.

edit: 45,000 grads with 30,000 openings. You do the math. Not all of those come from TTT and TTTT schools. There are probably less than 30,000 openings now, and also quite a few of those 30,000 are probably underemployed.

ballpop
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Re: 3.5/164/166

Postby ballpop » Fri Jan 07, 2011 4:22 pm

http://www.lawcrossing.com/article/5769 ... graduates/

It doesn't include clerkships and the like, not to mention solo practice (tough, but hell, grinding out cash doing DUI's and traffic tickets can be pretty profitable)

It is also the openings on ONE website, which purports to represent the entire market. If you think every job in the entire economy is on this site (or even somewhere on the internet) I question how much you know about grinding out job leads---not to mention, I would think a lot of biglaw positions don't get posted in the classifieds

And the 45000 graduates include a bare majority of schools that are third and fourth tier. I don't think it is roses and rainbows out there, but I also don't think it is the Armageddon

EDIT---LawCrossing, the nation’s leading legal job site today shows a whopping 107,860 open positions, including 14,834 positions in the last seven days alone. The breakup of these active legal job openings is:

But you say less now?

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Grizz
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Re: 3.5/164/166

Postby Grizz » Fri Jan 07, 2011 4:30 pm

ballpop wrote:http://www.lawcrossing.com/article/5769/LawCrossing-reports-30-000-attorney-positions-while-media-focuses-on-disappointed-law-graduates/


Should have clarified. 30,000 entry level positions. My B. That breakdown posted does not list only entry level positions. So fairly irrelevant. Actually totally irrelevant.

It doesn't include clerkships and the like, not to mention solo practice (tough, but hell, grinding out cash doing DUI's and traffic tickets can be pretty profitable)


Solo practice right out of law school is a terrible idea, considering law school doesn't teach you how to do anything, and you don't have a network to feed you clients in a crowded market. And you don't have money to start a business or advertise. Oh, did I also mention you don't know how to practice law?

And the 45000 graduates include a bare majority of schools that are third and fourth tier. I don't think it is roses and rainbows out there, but I also don't think it is the Armageddon


You realize quite a few people from TTT schools still get jobs, right?

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Re: 3.5/164/166

Postby bigkahuna2020 » Fri Jan 07, 2011 4:38 pm

Radlaw at it again

ballpop
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Re: 3.5/164/166

Postby ballpop » Fri Jan 07, 2011 4:48 pm

I think I'll be fine with a Tier 1 degree and under 90k of debt or a Tier 2 degree and under 60k of debt

If you have suggestions for other schools (and not Florida, or Nevada, or any of the other bubble states) --- http://today.ucf.edu/florida-will-be-la ... recession/ go ahead

Chicago and the Northeast didn't get hit as hard by the recession as places like Florida/Nevada/Arizona...I'm pretty sure I'll be fine

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Re: 3.5/164/166

Postby Grizz » Fri Jan 07, 2011 5:09 pm

ballpop wrote:Chicago and the Northeast didn't get hit as hard by the recession as places like Florida/Nevada/Arizona...I'm pretty sure I'll be fine


Chi is bad. NY is has biglaw jobs if you want biglaw and have the grades from a prestigious school.




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