3.88 174, 171..

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CO2014
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3.88 174, 171..

Postby CO2014 » Fri Dec 24, 2010 7:56 pm

Hey TLS, I mainly browse these forums and recently decided I should post. I went to GSU undergrad, took the LSAT (1st attempt 174) and under poor advisement from my advisor at GSU retook the test. I'm going to consider applying next cycle, but I'm currently working for a firm in Atlanta making $60,000 after taxes. I do not feel too savvy about the opportunity cost of incurring huge debt over the course of the next three years. Lurking this forum every evening and enduring all of the pessimistic views from people in school makes me want to pass up on the opportunity. I'm a URM (PR - to be specific) and would like advice on where to apply, why, and what kind of money to expect (in terms of scholarship $$). I was raised by a single mother, born in NY, raised in GA and am open to practicing anywhere because I've never had the opportunity to travel. Also, how will my second score, being lower affect my reach to schools, and scholarships of course.



Thanks.

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takehold
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Re: 3.88 174, 171..

Postby takehold » Fri Dec 24, 2010 8:05 pm

First of all, let me say congrats on the numbers. As I am likewise a year removed from applying, I can't give you any anecdotal evidence, but based upon my limited understanding (from browsing these forums mostly) I would encourage you to blanket top schools, maybe the whole T14. If you could put together a solid application, you stand a good chance everywhere. I know little about the effect of your second score but your URM status should provide a nice boost.

You have plenty of time to do research so take a look at some of the T14 schools and see which ones look attractive to you. Also, you might have a few fee waivers based on your numbers so that should help as well. Good luck!

EDIT: Also I can't give you any anecdotal information about scholarships but I would venture to guess you could receive some good money in the lower half of the T14. I'm sure someone else can provide you with better info than me on this.

CO2014
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Re: 3.88 174, 171..

Postby CO2014 » Fri Dec 24, 2010 8:22 pm

takehold wrote:First of all, let me say congrats on the numbers. As I am likewise a year removed from applying, I can't give you any anecdotal evidence, but based upon my limited understanding (from browsing these forums mostly) I would encourage you to blanket top schools, maybe the whole T14. If you could put together a solid application, you stand a good chance everywhere. I know little about the effect of your second score but your URM status should provide a nice boost.

You have plenty of time to do research so take a look at some of the T14 schools and see which ones look attractive to you. Also, you might have a few fee waivers based on your numbers so that should help as well. Good luck!

EDIT: Also I can't give you any anecdotal information about scholarships but I would venture to guess you could receive some good money in the lower half of the T14. I'm sure someone else can provide you with better info than me on this.


Thanks for the reply. A lot of my peers from GSU / GT told me I was dumb for not applying this cycle. My advisor (who I used all throughout undergrad / became close friends with) insisted I retake the LSAT in hopes of scoring higher than 174. Do you think my undergrad institution will play a role in decisions? Although GSU is climbing the Georgia ladder specifically in its Business program, does it really matter where (s)he went for undegrad? Thanks.

anonymiB
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Re: 3.88 174, 171..

Postby anonymiB » Fri Dec 24, 2010 8:27 pm

CO2014 wrote:
takehold wrote:First of all, let me say congrats on the numbers. As I am likewise a year removed from applying, I can't give you any anecdotal evidence, but based upon my limited understanding (from browsing these forums mostly) I would encourage you to blanket top schools, maybe the whole T14. If you could put together a solid application, you stand a good chance everywhere. I know little about the effect of your second score but your URM status should provide a nice boost.

You have plenty of time to do research so take a look at some of the T14 schools and see which ones look attractive to you. Also, you might have a few fee waivers based on your numbers so that should help as well. Good luck!

EDIT: Also I can't give you any anecdotal information about scholarships but I would venture to guess you could receive some good money in the lower half of the T14. I'm sure someone else can provide you with better info than me on this.


Thanks for the reply. A lot of my peers from GSU / GT told me I was dumb for not applying this cycle. My advisor (who I used all throughout undergrad / became close friends with) insisted I retake the LSAT in hopes of scoring higher than 174. Do you think my undergrad institution will play a role in decisions? Although GSU is climbing the Georgia ladder specifically in its Business program, does it really matter where (s)he went for undegrad? Thanks.


The 171 isn't that much lower, and all it proves is that you are consistently in the 99th% so be proud of that! No school will look down on that too much, from what I have heard, since both are in the 170 range and the first is a 174. They take the highest, not the most recent, most schools anyways. I think you are a guarantee at almost every school in the country, apply now ED to Yale or your choice.

But I should note, that is only from reading on here, and knowing that a 171 with a 174 would not keep you out of Yale. A 174 with your GPA would be a guarantee, so you should sugar the gas tank and murder the first born of who told you to retake. But once again, these are just my opinions, better search the forum for someone with your exact situation.
Last edited by anonymiB on Fri Dec 24, 2010 8:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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kkklick
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Re: 3.88 174, 171..

Postby kkklick » Fri Dec 24, 2010 8:27 pm

Whoever told you to retake the 174, unless they were under the impression you were PTing 180's, should be fired. Bad move but not a disaster, still 98%+. Your chances at top 14 will be good but don't know how HYS will look at the 3 point drop.

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IAFG
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Re: 3.88 174, 171..

Postby IAFG » Fri Dec 24, 2010 8:30 pm

CO2014 wrote:open to practicing anywhere because I've never had the opportunity to travel.

well then for goodness' sakes go travel. get a job in another city, try some things out. i would not start practicing somewhere until you're sure you want to put down roots there. it's a service industry and connections will matter. now is the time to experiment with geography, law school will be waiting.

CO2014
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Re: 3.88 174, 171..

Postby CO2014 » Fri Dec 24, 2010 8:31 pm

kkklick wrote:Whoever told you to retake the 174, unless they were under the impression you were PTing 180's, should be fired. Bad move but not a disaster, still 98%+. Your chances at top 14 will be good but don't know how HYS will look at the 3 point drop.

As a URM (PR), which schools would you say are best fitting? HYS is cool, but should I consider scholarships at schools placing synonymously? I thought the point drop issue was relevant at all schools T14 or not.

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kkklick
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Re: 3.88 174, 171..

Postby kkklick » Fri Dec 24, 2010 8:35 pm

CO2014 wrote:
kkklick wrote:Whoever told you to retake the 174, unless they were under the impression you were PTing 180's, should be fired. Bad move but not a disaster, still 98%+. Your chances at top 14 will be good but don't know how HYS will look at the 3 point drop.

As a URM (PR), which schools would you say are best fitting? HYS is cool, but should I consider scholarships at schools placing synonymously? I thought the point drop issue was relevant at all schools T14 or not.

It is, you don't want to drop points on the LSAT that's for sure. You were in a position that improvement would only have secured a tighter grip on HYS and have made for a more aesthetically pleasing number. The risk was quite high but it's not a complete mess up.

The only issue is timing I would submit apps now, like right away. At this point you won't be the one chooising it will be whichever schools have space to take you. But a URM high GPA high LSAT, you got everything going for you.

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dpk711
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Re: 3.88 174, 171..

Postby dpk711 » Fri Dec 24, 2010 8:36 pm

As long as you apply fairly early (pre-Dec.) you will have an excellent chance at most of the T-14.
Enjoy H, Y, or S.

Also, whoever told you to retake a 174 is an idiot.

CO2014
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Re: 3.88 174, 171..

Postby CO2014 » Fri Dec 24, 2010 8:41 pm

kkklick wrote:
CO2014 wrote:
kkklick wrote:Whoever told you to retake the 174, unless they were under the impression you were PTing 180's, should be fired. Bad move but not a disaster, still 98%+. Your chances at top 14 will be good but don't know how HYS will look at the 3 point drop.

As a URM (PR), which schools would you say are best fitting? HYS is cool, but should I consider scholarships at schools placing synonymously? I thought the point drop issue was relevant at all schools T14 or not.

It is, you don't want to drop points on the LSAT that's for sure. You were in a position that improvement would only have secured a tighter grip on HYS and have made for a more aesthetically pleasing number. The risk was quite high but it's not a complete mess up.

The only issue is timing I would submit apps now, like right away. At this point you won't be the one chooising it will be whichever schools have space to take you. But a URM high GPA high LSAT, you got everything going for you.


Which schools would you apply to? Please remember my initial plan was to work and prepare for next cycle.. I saw another post with someone applying VERY late and his/her results were atrocious. I have only visited Georgia's law schools.

Edit* Anyone going to the falcons game Monday?

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kkklick
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Re: 3.88 174, 171..

Postby kkklick » Fri Dec 24, 2010 8:48 pm

I would apply to the entire top 25. You'll get a handful of acceptances and then you can choose which school is the best for you. Spend the money and apply, you will not get the opportunity again.

CanadianWolf
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Re: 3.88 174, 171..

Postby CanadianWolf » Fri Dec 24, 2010 8:59 pm

Apply to all law schools in the Top 17 (Harvard, Yale, Stanford, Columbia, Chicago, NYU, UCal-Berkeley, Penn, Michigan, Northwestern, Duke, Cornell, Georgetown, Virginia, UCLA, Texas & Vanderbilt) and any other law schools in which you have a strong interest.

nbaguy
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Re: 3.88 174, 171..

Postby nbaguy » Fri Dec 24, 2010 9:31 pm

Hey TLS, I mainly browse these forums and recently decided I should post. I went to GSU undergrad, took the LSAT (1st attempt 174) and under poor advisement from my advisor at GSU retook the test. I'm going to consider applying next cycle, but I'm currently working for a firm in Atlanta making $60,000 after taxes. I do not feel too savvy about the opportunity cost of incurring huge debt over the course of the next three years. Lurking this forum every evening and enduring all of the pessimistic views from people in school makes me want to pass up on the opportunity. I'm a URM (PR - to be specific) and would like advice on where to apply, why, and what kind of money to expect (in terms of scholarship $$). I was raised by a single mother, born in NY, raised in GA and am open to practicing anywhere because I've never had the opportunity to travel. Also, how will my second score, being lower affect my reach to schools, and scholarships of course.


I wouldn't walk away froma 60k/yr job after tax lightly. Consider waiting until Sept 2011, apply only to HYSCCN and maybe a school in a location very near where you would want to practice. See what offers you get. As a URM you should have your pick of acceptances and with those numbers scholarships too. But, given your position and the economy, I wouldn't jump into debt without significant thought.

CO2014
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Re: 3.88 174, 171..

Postby CO2014 » Fri Dec 24, 2010 9:55 pm

nbaguy wrote:
Hey TLS, I mainly browse these forums and recently decided I should post. I went to GSU undergrad, took the LSAT (1st attempt 174) and under poor advisement from my advisor at GSU retook the test. I'm going to consider applying next cycle, but I'm currently working for a firm in Atlanta making $60,000 after taxes. I do not feel too savvy about the opportunity cost of incurring huge debt over the course of the next three years. Lurking this forum every evening and enduring all of the pessimistic views from people in school makes me want to pass up on the opportunity. I'm a URM (PR - to be specific) and would like advice on where to apply, why, and what kind of money to expect (in terms of scholarship $$). I was raised by a single mother, born in NY, raised in GA and am open to practicing anywhere because I've never had the opportunity to travel. Also, how will my second score, being lower affect my reach to schools, and scholarships of course.


I wouldn't walk away froma 60k/yr job after tax lightly. Consider waiting until Sept 2011, apply only to HYSCCN and maybe a school in a location very near where you would want to practice. See what offers you get. As a URM you should have your pick of acceptances and with those numbers scholarships too. But, given your position and the economy, I wouldn't jump into debt without significant thought.


Thanks.

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FlightoftheEarls
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Re: 3.88 174, 171..

Postby FlightoftheEarls » Sun Dec 26, 2010 6:03 pm

kkklick wrote:Whoever told you to retake the 174, unless they were under the impression you were PTing 180's, should be fired. Bad move but not a disaster, still 98%+. Your chances at top 14 will be good but don't know how HYS will look at the 3 point drop.

I think you'll be fine with the lower score, but I'm going to reiterate this - your "friend" should be fired. The fact that he makes money providing you with such terrible "advice" is ridiculous - with a 3.88/174 URM you were already in at H, with solid shots at YS. All that mattered at this point was your softs, certainly not your numbers.

Request fee waivers and apply to the entire T14, see what money you get, and then decide between HYS and T14 with $$$.

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Ragged
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Re: 3.88 174, 171..

Postby Ragged » Sun Dec 26, 2010 6:08 pm

FlightoftheEarls wrote:
kkklick wrote:Whoever told you to retake the 174, unless they were under the impression you were PTing 180's, should be fired. Bad move but not a disaster, still 98%+. Your chances at top 14 will be good but don't know how HYS will look at the 3 point drop.

I think you'll be fine with the lower score, but I'm going to reiterate this - your "friend" should be fired. The fact that he makes money providing you with such terrible "advice" is ridiculous - with a 3.88/174 URM you were already in at H, with solid shots at YS. All that mattered at this point was your softs, certainly not your numbers.

Request fee waivers and apply to the entire T14, see what money you get, and then decide between HYS and T14 with $$$.


TITCR

fish52
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Re: 3.88 174, 171..

Postby fish52 » Sun Dec 26, 2010 6:37 pm

If you are making that kind of money in texas with just a BA/BS and there is a possibility of upward career/salary mobility there... I would seriously question going to law school at all. You will probably take home less than that a year (post-taxes and post-debt payment) for several years after graduating from law school, possibly be several hundred thousand dollars in debt, and living in a much more expensive (and much colder) market like NYC or Chicago. And that's even assuming you GET a biglaw job out of law school, which isn't even a lock at HYS ITE.

Seriously, ask yourself if the hell of law school and living in the frozen north is really worth it. Now, if you are never going to take home more than $100k with your current career, then maybe it would be worth it. But wow, even then, what a trade-off and what a gamble.

CO2014
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Re: 3.88 174, 171..

Postby CO2014 » Mon Dec 27, 2010 12:21 am

FlightoftheEarls wrote:
kkklick wrote:Whoever told you to retake the 174, unless they were under the impression you were PTing 180's, should be fired. Bad move but not a disaster, still 98%+. Your chances at top 14 will be good but don't know how HYS will look at the 3 point drop.

I think you'll be fine with the lower score, but I'm going to reiterate this - your "friend" should be fired. The fact that he makes money providing you with such terrible "advice" is ridiculous - with a 3.88/174 URM you were already in at H, with solid shots at YS. All that mattered at this point was your softs, certainly not your numbers.

Request fee waivers and apply to the entire T14, see what money you get, and then decide between HYS and T14 with $$$.


I understand your frustration but I was under a lot of stress. Dog passed the night before (first).

CO2014
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Re: 3.88 174, 171..

Postby CO2014 » Mon Dec 27, 2010 12:32 am

fish52 wrote:If you are making that kind of money in texas with just a BA/BS and there is a possibility of upward career/salary mobility there... I would seriously question going to law school at all. You will probably take home less than that a year (post-taxes and post-debt payment) for several years after graduating from law school, possibly be several hundred thousand dollars in debt, and living in a much more expensive (and much colder) market like NYC or Chicago. And that's even assuming you GET a biglaw job out of law school, which isn't even a lock at HYS ITE.

Seriously, ask yourself if the hell of law school and living in the frozen north is really worth it. Now, if you are never going to take home more than $100k with your current career, then maybe it would be worth it. But wow, even then, what a trade-off and what a gamble.


I'm actually in Atlanta, GA. A J.D. was my original interest, hence taking the LSAT. I'm a CPA for my uncle although accounting is not my major career goal. After reading a countless number of negative posts, I've become afraid to jump in law school expecting a decent job coming out. I'm well aware of the opportunity cost. People around me are telling me to apply, (advisor advising retakes), and also suggesting the market will improve by the time I'm done. I understand that does not say much about where I will place in class though :o.

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Re: 3.88 174, 171..

Postby T6Hopeful » Mon Dec 27, 2010 2:30 am

CO2014 wrote:
fish52 wrote:If you are making that kind of money in texas with just a BA/BS and there is a possibility of upward career/salary mobility there... I would seriously question going to law school at all. You will probably take home less than that a year (post-taxes and post-debt payment) for several years after graduating from law school, possibly be several hundred thousand dollars in debt, and living in a much more expensive (and much colder) market like NYC or Chicago. And that's even assuming you GET a biglaw job out of law school, which isn't even a lock at HYS ITE.

Seriously, ask yourself if the hell of law school and living in the frozen north is really worth it. Now, if you are never going to take home more than $100k with your current career, then maybe it would be worth it. But wow, even then, what a trade-off and what a gamble.


I'm actually in Atlanta, GA. A J.D. was my original interest, hence taking the LSAT. I'm a CPA for my uncle although accounting is not my major career goal. After reading a countless number of negative posts, I've become afraid to jump in law school expecting a decent job coming out. I'm well aware of the opportunity cost. People around me are telling me to apply, (advisor advising retakes), and also suggesting the market will improve by the time I'm done. I understand that does not say much about where I will place in class though :o.


Well, as long as the bolded above isn't a huge factor in why you're making your decision, only you can understand what it'll take for you to be happy. You've got numbers I would LOVE to have (even with your average LSAT), but you are also well aware of the opportunity cost of leaving your current career. As long as you think long and hard that taking that gamble won't end in you being miserable for the rest of your life (billing 2100-2400+ hours for several years right out of school), all you can do is take an educated, albeit risky, move.

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FlightoftheEarls
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Re: 3.88 174, 171..

Postby FlightoftheEarls » Mon Dec 27, 2010 12:17 pm

CO2014 wrote:
FlightoftheEarls wrote:
kkklick wrote:Whoever told you to retake the 174, unless they were under the impression you were PTing 180's, should be fired. Bad move but not a disaster, still 98%+. Your chances at top 14 will be good but don't know how HYS will look at the 3 point drop.

I think you'll be fine with the lower score, but I'm going to reiterate this - your "friend" should be fired. The fact that he makes money providing you with such terrible "advice" is ridiculous - with a 3.88/174 URM you were already in at H, with solid shots at YS. All that mattered at this point was your softs, certainly not your numbers.

Request fee waivers and apply to the entire T14, see what money you get, and then decide between HYS and T14 with $$$.


I understand your frustration but I was under a lot of stress. Dog passed the night before (first).

Oh no worries, I'm not frustrated. I just feel bad for students who receive such poor advice by people paid to be experts. The number of students who come on here who have been told just straight up ridiculous things by pre-law "advisors" through their universities is absolutely terrifying.

In your case, there was really no reason to retake a 174 with your GPA/URM. Even if you didn't perform to your max on the 174 test day, the difference between landing a 174 and landing a 180 will be negligible for your applications, while the impact of dropping your score might actually hurt you (it almost certainly won't because of your URM status, but it could have). The only thing your application needed work on was refining your softs to get you into YLS and SLS (not to say yours aren't good, merely that that is the only part of your application to focus on at that point), but certainly not on an improved LSAT. It was a suggestion that would provide very little gain while taking on substantial risk.

DoctorSurf
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Re: 3.88 174, 171..

Postby DoctorSurf » Tue Dec 28, 2010 11:00 am

So they give you bonus points if you are born and raised in America and your mom is from Puerto Rico? Call me crazy, and this is no offense to you because are obviously very smart and deserve to goto the best schools in the country based on your numbers, but why categorize yourself as a person as one who is "Underrepresented in Healthcare" when you truly do not fit into this category. This really should be reserved for a kid born and raised in the south bronx by a broken hispanic family who broke out of the system and made it to college where he was finally able to excel with a 3.3 and a 160 on his LSAT. A kid who never got the chance to study until his first day of college and started at a reading level closer to a high school freshman. Just my take on the whole situation.

AztecaRex
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Re: 3.88 174, 171..

Postby AztecaRex » Tue Dec 28, 2010 11:30 am

DoctorSurf wrote:So they give you bonus points if you are born and raised in America and your mom is from Puerto Rico? Call me crazy, and this is no offense to you because are obviously very smart and deserve to goto the best schools in the country based on your numbers, but why categorize yourself as a person as one who is "Underrepresented in Healthcare" when you truly do not fit into this category. This really should be reserved for a kid born and raised in the south bronx by a broken hispanic family who broke out of the system and made it to college where he was finally able to excel with a 3.3 and a 160 on his LSAT. A kid who never got the chance to study until his first day of college and started at a reading level closer to a high school freshman. Just my take on the whole situation.


Firstly, Puerto Rico is in America :wink:

Secondly, historically speaking, New York has had a huge population of Puerto Ricans who strongly identify with their culture.

Thirdly, URM status has nothing to do with a person's financial status. I'm URM myself, and I grew up in a similar situation to the one you describe, but somehow I'm not bent out of shape when I see relatively well-to-do URMs get boosts (and do we even know the OP grew up well-off? I was raised by a single mother myself, and things were always tight).

Fourthly, if the OP had just kept his original score, he would have had as good a shot as anyone at pretty much any school (in at Harvard, possibly in at Stanford and Yale depending on softs), URM status or no. So, call it karmic justice to balance out his advisor's horrible advice.

And fifthly, it's just the way the world/law school operates, so be easy and accept it hermanito 8)

CO2014
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Re: 3.88 174, 171..

Postby CO2014 » Tue Dec 28, 2010 7:29 pm

DoctorSurf wrote:So they give you bonus points if you are born and raised in America and your mom is from Puerto Rico? Call me crazy, and this is no offense to you because are obviously very smart and deserve to goto the best schools in the country based on your numbers, but why categorize yourself as a person as one who is "Underrepresented in Healthcare" when you truly do not fit into this category. This really should be reserved for a kid born and raised in the south bronx by a broken hispanic family who broke out of the system and made it to college where he was finally able to excel with a 3.3 and a 160 on his LSAT. A kid who never got the chance to study until his first day of college and started at a reading level closer to a high school freshman. Just my take on the whole situation.


1. I was born in the Bronx, NY. Nice coincidence.
2. RAISED by a single mother, we latter moved to the south.
3. I'm not looking for boosts nor do I have plans to receive credit for my ethnicity. I actually hope IVY law schools are not filled with IVY undergrads like you. Mischievous white kids who played the piano for 12 years, had the opportunity to play sports, and instead of joining the labor force (I didn't have a choice), you were the president of three clubs right? Only jealous NON-URM IVY league maggots think like this after coming out of a competitive undergrad with mediocre scores.

jas5076
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Re: 3.88 174, 171..

Postby jas5076 » Wed Dec 29, 2010 4:09 pm

fish52 wrote:If you are making that kind of money in texas with just a BA/BS and there is a possibility of upward career/salary mobility there... I would seriously question going to law school at all. You will probably take home less than that a year (post-taxes and post-debt payment) for several years after graduating from law school, possibly be several hundred thousand dollars in debt, and living in a much more expensive (and much colder) market like NYC or Chicago. And that's even assuming you GET a biglaw job out of law school, which isn't even a lock at HYS ITE.

Seriously, ask yourself if the hell of law school and living in the frozen north is really worth it. Now, if you are never going to take home more than $100k with your current career, then maybe it would be worth it. But wow, even then, what a trade-off and what a gamble.


With his numbers this won't be much of an issue... He will have a choice of T14 for free basically or HYS, plus he should save some of that $$$$ now so he can cover his living expenses at school! And SEVERAL hundred thousand's in debt? Are you nuts?? With his numbers no chance of that unless he is hellbent on HYS




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