2.27 GPA and 151 LSAT Forum

[jimriver]

Is there a law school in the US that will take me? Having trouble finding low end law schools. Thanks for the help!

[joemoviebuff]

Yes. Whether or not you should go there is a better question.

[jimriver]

joemoviebuff, would you mind elaborating a bit? are you insinuating that the quality of education would not be worth the investment? or that it would be tougher to get hired and find a job once out of school? or both?

for what it's worth, i never studied or practiced for the lsat. are you currently attending law school? i suppose i'm just trying to figure out if law school is something i actually want to do. i have no doubt i would succeed in law school if i put in the effort...something i obviously did not do in undergrad is there any way to make up a poor GPA, say with graduate school or maybe an associate's degree? or am i just SOL?

thanks for all and any input!

-jim

[beachbum]

Retake or rethink law school. It sounds like you need to do a bit of both.

[Patriot1208]

joemoviebuff, would you mind elaborating a bit? are you insinuating that the quality of education would not be worth the investment? or that it would be tougher to get hired and find a job once out of school? or both?

for what it's worth, i never studied or practiced for the lsat. are you currently attending law school? i suppose i'm just trying to figure out if law school is something i actually want to do. i have no doubt i would succeed in law school if i put in the effort...something i obviously did not do in undergrad is there any way to make up a poor GPA, say with graduate school or maybe an associate's degree? or am i just SOL?

thanks for all and any input!

-jim

If you can study, get the LSAT up to a 170+, and get into a top school ED, then it might be worth it. Otherwise, with those numbers, you are going to be stuck in schools that willl make you pay full tuition (50k per year with living expenses) and you will have zero chance of finding a legal job that pays oer 45k. And, with the type of school you'll be at, you are more likely then not to be unemployed after graduation. These will be your options and you will have gone 150k or more in debt and will have wasted three years earnings. Does this sound worth it to you?

[taxguy]

Jimriver, There are a number of law schools that could take you with your stats. Bypassing the question of whether you should go to these, here are some good suggestions:

John Marshall Law school in both Atlanta and Chicago, thomas cooley law school in Michigan ( four locations), Ohio Northern Law School , Western New England Law School, Suffolk Law School, Florida Coastal Law School, Barry and Nova Law School, University of Baltimore might take you, Ava Maria Law school, and University of Dayton among many others.

As for whether you should go to these, some of them are actually quite good and well- respected in their areas. A lot depends on your goals. If your main goal is big law, it will be tough to get a job attending any of these schools unless you are in the top 5% of the school and preferably in the top 5-10 people. If you have lower aspirations, any of these can do the job. If you just want a legal background but don't want to practice law per se, any of these will do the trick.

Personally, I would try to retake the LSAT in order to get 160+;however, this is much easier said then done. Many posters would suggest that you can "easily" get over 160 and even 170 with enough work. I really don't think that this is true;however, it won't hurt you to try. Practicing for it really can help a fair amount.

[beachbum]

Jimriver, There are a number of law schools that could take you with your stats. Bypassing the question of whether you should go to these, here are some good suggestions:

John Marshall Law school in both Atlanta and Chicago, Thomas Cooley Law school in Michigan ( four locations), Ohio Northern Law School , Western New England Law School, Suffolk Law School, Florida Coastal Law School, Barry and Nova Law School, University of Baltimore might take you, Ava Maria Law school, and University of Dayton among many others.

As for whether you should go to these, some of them are actually quite good and well- respected in their areas. A lot depends on your goals. If your main goal is big law, it will be tough to get a job attending any of these schools unless you are in the top 5% of the school. If you have lower aspirations, any of these can do the job. If you just want a legal background but don't want to practice law per se, any of these will do the trick.

I can't tell if this is serious or not.

[floppymex]

-

[joemoviebuff]

joemoviebuff, would you mind elaborating a bit? are you insinuating that the quality of education would not be worth the investment? or that it would be tougher to get hired and find a job once out of school? or both?

for what it's worth, i never studied or practiced for the lsat. are you currently attending law school? i suppose i'm just trying to figure out if law school is something i actually want to do. i have no doubt i would succeed in law school if i put in the effort...something i obviously did not do in undergrad is there any way to make up a poor GPA, say with graduate school or maybe an associate's degree? or am i just SOL?

thanks for all and any input!

-jim

"Tougher" is a euphemism. "Ridiculously improbable" is better. These schools that would take you fail out around 1/5 of their 1L's, taking their tuition for a year and leaving them out in the cold with brutal grading curves and exceptionally misleading employment statistics.

i have no doubt i would succeed in law school if i put in the effort...

You're not the only student who thinks that. Everyone at your school will.

A graduate degree won't help your GPA. Distancing yourself timewise from college and getting some work experience will. Also, as others have advised, retaking the LSAT is your best chance at improving your prospects.

[taxguy]

joemoviebuff, would you mind elaborating a bit? are you insinuating that the quality of education would not be worth the investment? or that it would be tougher to get hired and find a job once out of school? or both?

for what it's worth, i never studied or practiced for the lsat. are you currently attending law school? i suppose i'm just trying to figure out if law school is something i actually want to do. i have no doubt i would succeed in law school if i put in the effort...something i obviously did not do in undergrad is there any way to make up a poor GPA, say with graduate school or maybe an associate's degree? or am i just SOL?

thanks for all and any input!

-jim

"Tougher" is a euphemism. "Ridiculously improbable" is better. These schools that would take you fail out around 1/5 of their 1L's, taking their tuition for a year and leaving them out in the cold with brutal grading curves and exceptionally misleading employment statistics.

i have no doubt i would succeed in law school if i put in the effort...

You're not the only student who thinks that. Everyone at your school will.

A graduate degree won't help your GPA. Distancing yourself timewise from college and getting some work experience will. Also, as others have advised, retaking the LSAT is your best chance at improving your prospects.

A grad degree would help IF you do very, very well. However, it is considered a soft factor since grad school grades don't filter into the admission index.

[jimriver]

wow, i was not expecting so many replies. thank you so much for your comments everyone, i really do appreciate them. it's just that with application deadlines rolling around the corner, i'm really wondering if i'll just be throwing away money on application fees. i'm so happy i found this forum. i've been doing a lot of reading here and i understand the arguments you all are bringing up regarding the ability to land a high paying job coming out of a low tier school, $150k in debt.

How hard is it to frogleap to a higher-ranked school by transfer? Is it a viable option to spend a year in a low-rank/low-prestige law school, getting A's with the expectation of being able to transfer to a better school? Do people do this normally? Kind of like how many people spend 2 years at a junior community college, before transfering to a university and finishing their undergrad degree?

Thanks again for your advice!!

-jim

[whymeohgodno]

wow, i was not expecting so many replies. thank you so much for your comments everyone, i really do appreciate them. it's just that with application deadlines rolling around the corner, i'm really wondering if i'll just be throwing away money on application fees. i'm so happy i found this forum. i've been doing a lot of reading here and i understand the arguments you all are bringing up regarding the ability to land a high paying job coming out of a low tier school, $150k in debt.

How hard is it to frogleap to a higher-ranked school by transfer? Is it a viable option to spend a year in a low-rank/low-prestige law school, getting A's with the expectation of being able to transfer to a better school? Do people do this normally? Kind of like how many people spend 2 years at a junior community college, before transfering to a university and finishing their undergrad degree?

Thanks again for your advice!!

-jim

Law school is graded on a curve, it's nothing like undergrad and even at TTT schools getting top 10% is anything from a sure thing.

[ResolutePear]

I want to say that ITE, anybody under a 3.5GPA/165 should skip law school *UNLESSSSSSSS* they are being paid by their employer to go.

Otherwise, wait the market out. Law school will always be there.

That's my take on it, at least.

[kalvano]

I want to say that ITE, anybody under a 3.5GPA/165 should skip law school

I think you're wrong.

[ResolutePear]

I want to say that ITE, anybody under a 3.5GPA/165 should skip law school

I think you're wrong.

Welp, there it is. Both sides of the equation. You guys decide.

[northwood]

if you are dead set on becoming a lawyer, then law school should be your next step.
OP, in your case, you should re take the lsat, and try to get as high of a score as possible ( it needs to be in the mid 160s to counteract your gpa). I would re evaluate your approach to the lsat, and take the time to study. save your application money and purchase the LRB, LGB, and as many prep tests as possible. Aim to take the june/ october test. Take the time you have remaining in UG and hit the books, lay off the booze/ drugs, or whatever has prevented you from success in the classroom. ( hence the june or october test). You can start to look at schools to get an idea of what lsat you may need- use law school numbers to see where you currently stand. It will be tough, but if you dedicate yourself to the goal- you have a chance at succeeding.

best of luck

[jwrash]

Jimriver, There are a number of law schools that could take you with your stats. Bypassing the question of whether you should go to these, here are some good suggestions:

John Marshall Law school in both Atlanta and Chicago, Thomas Cooley Law school in Michigan ( four locations), Ohio Northern Law School , Western New England Law School, Suffolk Law School, Florida Coastal Law School, Barry and Nova Law School, University of Baltimore might take you, Ava Maria Law school, and University of Dayton among many others.

As for whether you should go to these, some of them are actually quite good and well- respected in their areas. A lot depends on your goals. If your main goal is big law, it will be tough to get a job attending any of these schools unless you are in the top 5% of the school and preferably in the top 5-10 people. If you have lower aspirations, any of these can do the job. If you just want a legal background but don't want to practice law per se, any of these will do the trick.

you should start by disregarding this

[Grizz]

wow, i was not expecting so many replies. thank you so much for your comments everyone, i really do appreciate them. it's just that with application deadlines rolling around the corner, i'm really wondering if i'll just be throwing away money on application fees. i'm so happy i found this forum. i've been doing a lot of reading here and i understand the arguments you all are bringing up regarding the ability to land a high paying job coming out of a low tier school, $150k in debt.

How hard is it to frogleap to a higher-ranked school by transfer? Is it a viable option to spend a year in a low-rank/low-prestige law school, getting A's with the expectation of being able to transfer to a better school? Do people do this normally? Kind of like how many people spend 2 years at a junior community college, before transfering to a university and finishing their undergrad degree?

Thanks again for your advice!!

-jim

VERY VERY hard to transfer up. Retake or don't go. You won't get into any schools worth going to.

[lawandi]

I want to say that ITE, anybody under a 3.5GPA/165 should skip law school

I think you're wrong.

Absolutely wrong. You don't have to have a median GPA and LSAT to get into a school. If someone had an LSAT score over a school's 75 percentile, they have a good shot as long as their GPA is not ridiculous. 170 and 3.0+ could get into Georgetown or the like, but 170 and OP's GPA is another question...

[Chants]

The fact that you say you want to go to law school but did not take the time to study or practice for the LSAT is mind blowing. If this is what you want to do as a career, you need to invest the time.

However, if you do decide this is what you want to do, you need to think about taking a course to improve that score. The LSAT is, in many ways, the great equalizer. You can "make up" for a four years of school (GPA) with one test. Use this to your advantage.

Also, there will be some that will tell you not to bother going to law school (t14 or bust etc etc). These are mostly the same kids that are baffled because their 3.7 undergrad GPA from Harvard/Yale/Columbia (insert prestigious undergrad school here) is not looked at any differently than someone with a 3.7 from a public school when applying to law schools (http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... =undergrad). So take those comments with a large grain of salt.

[beach_terror]

I want to say that ITE, anybody under a 3.5GPA/165 should skip law school

I think you're wrong.

Welp, there it is. Both sides of the equation. You guys decide.

Way to stick to your guns there, Pear.

[Veyron]

A superbly executed flame. Exquisite really.

[Ragged]

What's with all the shit stats flames nowadays? I guess auto-admit stats flames got boring.

I want to say that ITE, anybody under a 3.5GPA/165 should skip law school

I think you're wrong.

Welp, there it is. Both sides of the equation. You guys decide.

I'm with Pear on this. I would even say his minimum stats are generous.

Of course there are special circumstances like connections in the industry, intense desire to be a lawyer, or having a useless major with even less chance of gainful employment.

I personally would even be uncomfortable going to a non-T6 T-14 without a substancial scholarship. Going to T-6 at a sticker would make me think too.

[taxguy]

Resolutepear notes,"I want to say that ITE, anybody under a 3.5GPA/165 should skip law school *UNLESSSSSSSS* they are being paid by their employer to go.
Otherwise, wait the market out. Law school will always be there.
That's my take on it, at least."

Response: I love when folks give opinions without knowing you or your goals or your connections.

When I graduated from a NON T 15 law school, getting a job even then was tough. Yet, I know many successful lawyers who did NOT go to a top 20 law school. In fact, if you get a list of the top 100 super lawyers, check out where they want to law school. Many did NOT attend a top 15 law school.

I have been in law for over 30 years and did not go to a T15 law school.
Again, a lot depends on your goals. If you don't want to attend big law firm there are other opportunities;however, you will need to be agressive and smart about your job search. I would NOT automatically asssume that earning less than a 165 on the LSAT will doom your career unless your sole goal is to work for a top 20 law firm. Even then it would be possible with top grades and some moxy.

Bottom line: Do some research and judge for yourself. Just make sure that you aren't going to law school for no reason. You should have a good plan as to what you will do with your legal education and have a good reason other than you have a major that isn't vocationally oriented.

I am sure I will get flamed for this,but I do know what I am talking about.

[taxguy]

I wanted to add some further info to the above post. I know people who went to law school in order to further their education in becoming a top notch financial planning. I see nothing wrong with this. I know people who went to law school to study tax and work with a top accounting firm. I know folks who went to mediocre law schools who have good connections. Recently, I know two peoople who got jobs with the government. Don't let anyone say that the government doesn't hire because it just happened to two people that I personally know.
Bottom line is that there are many legal opportunities besides getting into a big law firms, If you are going to incur significant debt, however, you will really need to realistically appraise your earning potential. For example, small firms and government legal jobs don't start off paying $160,000 or even $80,000. Many newly minted lawyers start working for about 50K-60K. You have to factor this fact into your economic equation to see if law school is viable for you. If, however, you have parents paying for law school or you get significant aid, the economic risks are certainly lessoned. You really need to evaluate your situation and goals realistically.

As an aside, don't envy those folks who work for big firms and start off at $160,000. Trust me on this one point: many of them hate their jobs! The stress and hours are a killer. I know many lawyers who left these firms to work in government and with smaller firms. Also, starting with the government isn't a bad place to start. You can get great experience and connections. There are many US attorneys and public defenders who developed strong enough lititation skills to either open up their own practices or to be hired by large firms.
If you become known and develop a specialty, you can get into these top firms at a very high starting pay.

My final point is don 't assume that you can transfer law schools. Bottom tier law schools generally have a horrendous curve and make it hard to transfer.