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Flips88
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Postby Flips88 » Sun Oct 31, 2010 2:43 pm

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vanwinkle
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Re: 164, 4.0, chances at T-20?

Postby vanwinkle » Sun Oct 31, 2010 2:50 pm

ED to UVA if you'd be willing to pay sticker there. They love high GPA ED splitters, because that helps them maintain their 3.85 median. Definitely also apply to Boalt, as they do favor high GPAs also, but make sure you write a really solid PS for them (they care about the PS pretty significantly there, and I think they allow up to four pages). GULC and UT are worth applying to also.

That's an awesome GPA, it'd be a shame to waste it. You can always retake if you don't get into the T14 or close to it this year.

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Flips88
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Re: 164, 4.0, chances at T-20?

Postby Flips88 » Sun Oct 31, 2010 3:19 pm

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vanwinkle
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Re: 164, 4.0, chances at T-20?

Postby vanwinkle » Sun Oct 31, 2010 3:31 pm

Flips88 wrote:Thanks for the quick response. I'm highly interested in International Law/International Human Rights Law so that's why I'm looking at Georgetown, Northwestern, GW. I know I'm good at American for sure. I think if i can bump my score up a few points in december to the 168-170 range I can be gunning for NYU.

UVA has the somewhat prestigious VJIL (Virginia Journal of International Law) and other resources for students interested in international human rights work. Of course, the dirty secret of law school is that international law is insanely hard to get into, and you're far better off going to the highest-ranked school than relying on lower-ranked schools' promises of "renowned international law programs". UVA would be far better than GW or American, NYU would likely be better than UVA, and of course H or Y would be better than NYU.

If your goal is seriously to do international rights work, the best way to make that possible would be to aim for T10 only. If you don't get into any, take a year off, keep doing some kind of international human rights or policy work if you can, retake, and aim for 170s. Then apply again next year. You could clean up in the T6 with a 170+.

Alternatively, I'd ask: if humanitarian work is really your goal, is there a way you could do that without incurring $180K in debt to get a law degree? There's a lot you can do without trying to be a lawyer, and law school is an expensive gamble because you may have trouble finding paying work in your desired field when you graduate and you'll need some kind of income to pay your loans.

I realize this is beyond what you asked, but I mean well.

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Flips88
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Re: 164, 4.0, chances at T-20?

Postby Flips88 » Sun Oct 31, 2010 3:54 pm

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Grizz
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Re: 164, 4.0, chances at T-20?

Postby Grizz » Sun Oct 31, 2010 4:05 pm

Flips88 wrote:
vanwinkle wrote:
Alternatively, I'd ask: if humanitarian work is really your goal, is there a way you could do that without incurring $180K in debt to get a law degree? There's a lot you can do without trying to be a lawyer, and law school is an expensive gamble because you may have trouble finding paying work in your desired field when you graduate and you'll need some kind of income to pay your loans.
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Why is it that every single person interested in law school tries to convince every other person interested in law school that it's the worst idea ever? You guys act like the only jobs that exist for lawyers are reserved for the 4 or 5,000 students coming out of the t-10 every year. The dumb ones are the people that take on $100k+ in debt for a Tier 4 school. I know you mean well, but don't presume I haven't thought this over pretty significantly.


You asked for advice, and now you get mad when you get pretty good advice? There are barely any jobs in your desired legal field. Enjoy debt.

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Patriot1208
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Re: 164, 4.0, chances at T-20?

Postby Patriot1208 » Sun Oct 31, 2010 4:08 pm

Flips88 wrote:
vanwinkle wrote:
Alternatively, I'd ask: if humanitarian work is really your goal, is there a way you could do that without incurring $180K in debt to get a law degree? There's a lot you can do without trying to be a lawyer, and law school is an expensive gamble because you may have trouble finding paying work in your desired field when you graduate and you'll need some kind of income to pay your loans.
.



Why is it that every single person interested in law school tries to convince every other person interested in law school that it's the worst idea ever? You guys act like the only jobs that exist for lawyers are reserved for the 4 or 5,000 students coming out of the t-10 every year. The dumb ones are the people that take on $100k+ in debt for a Tier 4 school. I know you mean well, but don't presume I haven't thought this over pretty significantly.


He was trying to be helpful. It's not that the only jobs are reserved for those top students out of t10's. It's that the only legal jobs that are genuinely "humanitarian" are reserved for the top kids. Unless you are willing to be a part of corporate america or you see being a public defender as a humanitarian service, then it sounds like an MPP would be better for your career aspirations.

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vanwinkle
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Re: 164, 4.0, chances at T-20?

Postby vanwinkle » Sun Oct 31, 2010 4:13 pm

Flips88 wrote:Why is it that every single person interested in law school tries to convince every other person interested in law school that it's the worst idea ever? You guys act like the only jobs that exist for lawyers are reserved for the 4 or 5,000 students coming out of the t-10 every year. The dumb ones are the people that take on $100k+ in debt for a Tier 4 school. I know you mean well, but don't presume I haven't thought this over pretty significantly.

What's dumb about spending $100K to go to a T4 is the low likelihood of success in general, in finding any work worth that time and money investment. You're targeting a far more specific and narrow field, and what would be "dumb" in your case would be to do something with a low chance of success if that's the only reason you want to invest the time/money in law school. You're not just saying you want to be a lawyer and you don't care what you do; if you did I wouldn't have said anything, but you sound interested in something that is very narrow and often taken up by grads from the very top schools. There are seriously very few jobs in international human rights law. There are kids at T14s that can't get that kind of work right now. Aiming for that and that alone would be just as "dumb".

My point was that if being an international humanitarian is your primary goal you have better options for doing that than going to law school. If being a lawyer is your primary goal and you're okay with the idea of practicing law even if you can't get international work, then my concern is unfounded.

You should still try to stick to T10 or better in that case since they'll give you better employment options just generally, and given how much folks at GW and American are struggling to find work ITE it'd still be better to retake and sit out a year if you had to.

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Flips88
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Re: 164, 4.0, chances at T-20?

Postby Flips88 » Sun Oct 31, 2010 5:49 pm

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vanwinkle
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Re: 164, 4.0, chances at T-20?

Postby vanwinkle » Sun Oct 31, 2010 6:04 pm

Flips88 wrote:Sorry to be such a dick about an innocuous comment. I've just heard everyone and their mom talk about the law school supply/demand problem. I'm not completely dead set on international human rights law. it's just a strong interest. I'm also interested in public interest, con law, civil rights law. I've for sure learned from my job that I never want to do securities law. ever. ever.

I definitely know i can improve for December so I think I should have a better shot at t-14s. I have a friend that just started NYU and loves it. I really love the city of DC so Georgetown would be great too and also a big fan of the city of Chicago.

If you're broadly interested in practicing law then it definitely makes sense to go to a T14 if you can get in one.

In general, the DC market is insanely hard to break into. Even at GULC you're competing with 600 fellow students and everyone at a higher T14 that also wants DC. I know people at HLS this year that got shut out of DC, both in law firm and gov't work. Something to keep in mind; I'm not saying don't go to GULC, just that it can box you out in a couple ways (it's not the best school aiming for its home market, and it's not the strongest school for other major cities either) and you should be mindful of that. It would still be a far better choice overall than GW or American, just not as good overall as NYU or other schools if you can get in them.

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Grizz
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Re: 164, 4.0, chances at T-20?

Postby Grizz » Sun Oct 31, 2010 6:10 pm

Flips88 wrote:Sorry to be such a dick about an innocuous comment. I've just heard everyone and their mom talk about the law school supply/demand problem. I'm not completely dead set on international human rights law. it's just a strong interest. I'm also interested in public interest, con law, civil rights law. I've for sure learned from my job that I never want to do securities law. ever. ever.

I definitely know i can improve for December so I think I should have a better shot at t-14s. I have a friend that just started NYU and loves it. I really love the city of DC so Georgetown would be great too and also a big fan of the city of Chicago.


The same criticisms also apply to the bolded.




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