3.79/172 - Chances at T4

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JoeShmoe11
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3.79/172 - Chances at T4

Postby JoeShmoe11 » Sun Oct 31, 2010 12:47 pm

Hello everyone, I'm usually seen frequenting the LSAT boards but now that I've got my LSAT it's time to move on to the "What are my chances?" boards I suppose haha.

GPA: 3.8
LSAT: 172
SOFTS: Pretty good, some work with a local judge, lots of work, some volunteering. Hoping to have a very solid resume and PS. Don't want too specific!

Wondering what my chances at T4 are. I don't really want to leave the Northeast so Chicago is out (though I would be in a difficult situation if accepted to Stanford). So I see myself most likely applying to HYSCN. If I have to I will retake the LSATs and reapply next year with a better GPA (will probably only reach about 3.84 though).

I am STRONGLY considering Columbia ED because I know my chances at H/Y are pretty slim. I live in the Northeast so I am scared to apply to Stanford and potentially get in as I would pretty much have to go but wouldn't want to leave everyone I know behind. The only thing stopping me form EDing to Columbia is the slight glimmer of hope that I could get into H/Y and if I ED to Columbia and am accepted I will be forced to go there (obviously). I like Columbia A LOT and have no qualms with going there. In fact I feel extremely fortunate to even have a chance at Columbia, I've visited the school and really, really like it. The people are friendly, the area if surprising nice for NYC and it is close to home. Not to mention they place a lot of Supreme Court clerks which is something I am going to try to get into.

So I guess my questions are this: what are my chances at H/Y/S/Columbia? Do you think I should ED to Columbia or hold out for regular admissions and why?

And while I do value the various Law School Probability Calculators and have used them I would prefer a personal opinion. An explanation of how I could reach my goals would be even better! Thank you very much for reading and for you opinions. Feel free to be as brutally honest as necessary!
Last edited by JoeShmoe11 on Sun Oct 31, 2010 1:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Fresh
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Re: 3.79/172 - Chances at T4

Postby Fresh » Sun Oct 31, 2010 1:00 pm

JoeShmoe11 wrote:
So I guess my questions are this: what are my chances at H/Y/S/Columbia? Do you think I should ED to Columbia or hold out for regular admissions and why?

And while I do value the various Law School Probability Calculators and have used them I would prefer a personal opinion. An explanation of how I could reach my goals would be even better! Thank you very much for reading.


If that GPA is coming from a top undergrad and a 'hard' major, it'll help you out.

To get H/Y/S you're going to need to have an EXCELLENT application (great softs, great letters, etc.)

Columbia is achievable and I'd be surprised if you got rejected outright (meaning not waitlisted first):
http://columbia.lawschoolnumbers.com/ap ... r=desc&p=4

Someone who knows more about Columbia can probably tell you have much ED will help.

If you'd really prefer HYS, how confident are you that you can get that LSAT up? If you think you can hit 175+ next shot, then maybe retake? You're on the outer limits with these three so softs really will matter for u

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4for44
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Re: 3.79/172 - Chances at T4

Postby 4for44 » Sun Oct 31, 2010 1:07 pm

Your chances at Y/H are not great...
your chances at Columbia are okay... EDing would definitely change that... I think it depends on how happy you'd be with Columbia. If you really do like Columbia, apply ED, say a prayer or two, and if you get in, don't look back! Otherwise, if you would regret columbia, dont ED, say a few more prayers, give some homeless people some money to build your karma, and best of luck with YH and C...

Oh and T4 is a silly distinction... throw an NYU app in there if you don't ED at Columbia...

vsl89
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Re: 3.79/172 - Chances at T4

Postby vsl89 » Sun Oct 31, 2010 1:07 pm

I don't know if an ED is needed @ CLS.
http://columbia.lawschoolnumbers.com/ap ... ,5&type=jd
A more fixed LSN search shows that people with stats similar to yours were accepted 7/10 times. The key is searching for people with an LSAT @ 172 and a GPA above the median yet below the 75 (like yours). Your chances at HLS aren't great, but why close the door for yourself when CLS is a likely admit anyway, which it almost certainly is (you can't get too much better than 7/10)!

vsl89
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Re: 3.79/172 - Chances at T4

Postby vsl89 » Sun Oct 31, 2010 1:08 pm

BTW, definitely smart to throw in an app to NYU. Even if you don't want to go there, if they throw you even a bit of money, it might be good to use in negotiations w/ CLS.

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JoeShmoe11
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Re: 3.79/172 - Chances at T4

Postby JoeShmoe11 » Sun Oct 31, 2010 1:09 pm

Fresh wrote:
JoeShmoe11 wrote:
So I guess my questions are this: what are my chances at H/Y/S/Columbia? Do you think I should ED to Columbia or hold out for regular admissions and why?

And while I do value the various Law School Probability Calculators and have used them I would prefer a personal opinion. An explanation of how I could reach my goals would be even better! Thank you very much for reading.


If that GPA is coming from a top undergrad and a 'hard' major, it'll help you out.

To get H/Y/S you're going to need to have an EXCELLENT application (great softs, great letters, etc.)

Columbia is achievable and I'd be surprised if you got rejected outright (meaning not waitlisted first):
http://columbia.lawschoolnumbers.com/ap ... r=desc&p=4

Someone who knows more about Columbia can probably tell you have much ED will help.

If you'd really prefer HYS, how confident are you that you can get that LSAT up? If you think you can hit 175+ next shot, then maybe retake? You're on the outer limits with these three so softs really will matter for u


Thanks for the response! I'm a Bio/Psych double-major from a T60 undergrad. Certainly unique in major and bio has been pretty tough though I'm not sure what the adcoms will think of that. I have pretty good softs but I don't know what law schools will make of them. My resume/softs are good but like you said they need to be amazing to break HY.

In terms of retaking the LSAT I usually nail -0 on games. For some reason on the October test I got -4. Looking back the ones I missed were easy and careless mistakes. Without them I would've nailed a 177. My PT average was about a 175, mostly 174s with 6 or so 179/180s and a handful of 177s.

I'm considering (though my parents would hate it) giving it another year to apply to law school and retaking in February. February tests have the best curves and it would give me at least a whole month to study. Not to mention I would be able to get my GPA up to a 3.84ish, putting me closer to HY averages.

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JoeShmoe11
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Re: 3.79/172 - Chances at T4

Postby JoeShmoe11 » Sun Oct 31, 2010 1:10 pm

vsl89 wrote:BTW, definitely smart to throw in an app to NYU. Even if you don't want to go there, if they throw you even a bit of money, it might be good to use in negotiations w/ CLS.


You make a good point. I just feel like I am short-changing myself by applying there. Not to mention I don't like the atmosphere of NYU as much as CLS. But it can't hurt I suppose, thank you for the advice.

HeavenWood
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Re: 3.79/172 - Chances at T4

Postby HeavenWood » Sun Oct 31, 2010 1:18 pm

JoeShmoe11 wrote:
vsl89 wrote:BTW, definitely smart to throw in an app to NYU. Even if you don't want to go there, if they throw you even a bit of money, it might be good to use in negotiations w/ CLS.


You make a good point. I just feel like I am short-changing myself by applying there. Not to mention I don't like the atmosphere of NYU as much as CLS. But it can't hurt I suppose, thank you for the advice.


Is going to America's #6 law school really short-changing yourself? I'm not suggesting you'll get money from NYU, but which would you prefer: Columbia at sticker or NYU on scholly?

I'm not trying to bash your enthusiasm or tell you to give up on your dreams, but why the T4 or bust? Is Chicago that much worse than Columbia?

My suggestion: if you want to stay in NY, carpet-bomb the entire T14, plus apply to Fordham as a full ride safety. HYS will be tough, but not definitely not impossible. If your cycle doesn't work out, and you become nauseous at the idea of going to a non-T4, then there's always next year.

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Tanicius
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Re: 3.79/172 - Chances at T4

Postby Tanicius » Sun Oct 31, 2010 1:32 pm

JoeShmoe11 wrote:
vsl89 wrote:BTW, definitely smart to throw in an app to NYU. Even if you don't want to go there, if they throw you even a bit of money, it might be good to use in negotiations w/ CLS.


You make a good point. I just feel like I am short-changing myself by applying there. Not to mention I don't like the atmosphere of NYU as much as CLS. But it can't hurt I suppose, thank you for the advice.


There really is not that much of a difference if you're shooting for biglaw.

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JoeShmoe11
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Re: 3.79/172 - Chances at T4

Postby JoeShmoe11 » Sun Oct 31, 2010 1:39 pm

HeavenWood wrote:
JoeShmoe11 wrote:
vsl89 wrote:BTW, definitely smart to throw in an app to NYU. Even if you don't want to go there, if they throw you even a bit of money, it might be good to use in negotiations w/ CLS.


You make a good point. I just feel like I am short-changing myself by applying there. Not to mention I don't like the atmosphere of NYU as much as CLS. But it can't hurt I suppose, thank you for the advice.


Is going to America's #6 law school really short-changing yourself? I'm not suggesting you'll get money from NYU, but which would you prefer: Columbia at sticker or NYU on scholly?

I'm not trying to bash your enthusiasm or tell you to give up on your dreams, but why the T4 or bust? Is Chicago that much worse than Columbia?

My suggestion: if you want to stay in NY, carpet-bomb the entire T14, plus apply to Fordham as a full ride safety. HYS will be tough, but not definitely not impossible. If your cycle doesn't work out, and you become nauseous at the idea of going to a non-T4, then there's always next year.


I appreciate all the advice a lot. I think I might have misworded my first post and painted myself as a T4 snob (understandable looking back it it). I'd really like to stay in the Northeast (hence I would prefer not to go to Chicago) and I don't like NYU as a school. It's based on a biased sample but I know quite a few students and have been there several times and do not like the environment from what I've seen. Though their law school maybe be different so I may apply there. Maybe I'll visit the law school itself. Sorry if I gave off the wrong impression, just had a few bad experiences. I'm also considering Penn and maybe Cornell!

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JoeShmoe11
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Re: 3.79/172 - Chances at T4

Postby JoeShmoe11 » Sun Oct 31, 2010 1:42 pm

Tanicius wrote:
JoeShmoe11 wrote:
vsl89 wrote:BTW, definitely smart to throw in an app to NYU. Even if you don't want to go there, if they throw you even a bit of money, it might be good to use in negotiations w/ CLS.


You make a good point. I just feel like I am short-changing myself by applying there. Not to mention I don't like the atmosphere of NYU as much as CLS. But it can't hurt I suppose, thank you for the advice.


There really is not that much of a difference if you're shooting for biglaw.


I don't see myself at biglaw - I'd rather make a really decent living and do something truly good for the world. Not to say that biglaw excludes that possibility, I just feel like as a person I fall more in line with something else. I'm really hoping to shoot get into the Supreme Court and I know that Columbia tends to be more well-known for this than NYU.

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Tanicius
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Re: 3.79/172 - Chances at T4

Postby Tanicius » Sun Oct 31, 2010 1:53 pm

JoeShmoe11 wrote:
Tanicius wrote:
JoeShmoe11 wrote:
vsl89 wrote:BTW, definitely smart to throw in an app to NYU. Even if you don't want to go there, if they throw you even a bit of money, it might be good to use in negotiations w/ CLS.


You make a good point. I just feel like I am short-changing myself by applying there. Not to mention I don't like the atmosphere of NYU as much as CLS. But it can't hurt I suppose, thank you for the advice.


There really is not that much of a difference if you're shooting for biglaw.


I don't see myself at biglaw - I'd rather make a really decent living and do something truly good for the world. Not to say that biglaw excludes that possibility, I just feel like as a person I fall more in line with something else. I'm really hoping to shoot get into the Supreme Court and I know that Columbia tends to be more well-known for this than NYU.


Alright then. Two points:

1.) Columbia's chances of landing a SCOTUS clerkship are negligibly larger than NYU's. Do not make a law school decision on your likelihood of getting SCOTUS. It's not until you get Y/S/H, in that order of good odds, that your SCOTUS chances become even remotely considerable.

2.) NYU and Columbia both have incredibly strong public interest options and great LRAP's. Any advantage Columbia might have in PI is subjective and refers to specific programs, and for every one-up Columbia has in one program, NYU has a one-up on Columbia in another program. NYU has more PI groups at its OCI than any other school in the country, and has those connections for a reason.


Something else to consider: I used to think Columbia had the edge in these things until I talked to an NYU alum. He got into both Columbia and NYU, and he said that he picked NYU for the wrong reasons (third ride scholly and PI options). He said the location all by itself would have made it worth it to turn down the same options at Columbia. Apparently the Village is a pretty hopping place.


Anyway, the point is, don't be silly - apply to NYU. The only way you short-change yourself in this situation is by not applying.

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clintonius
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Re: 3.79/172 - Chances at T4

Postby clintonius » Sun Oct 31, 2010 2:12 pm

Yup, Tanicius got it right. The PI options at NYU are unmatched anywhere else -- there are dozens of ways to involve yourself even as a 1L, and then on top of all those projects you have the clinics during your second and third years. The law school at NYU also doesn't have much at all to do with the undergrad schools, and I don't think the atmosphere of the two is comparable. That said, if you visit both law schools and like the feel of CLS more, then that's your place. I just wouldn't rule out NYU based the atmosphere of its undergrad and the (still utterly negligible) chance of landing a SCOTUS clerkship from CLS, especially if public interest is your thing.

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JoeShmoe11
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Re: 3.79/172 - Chances at T4

Postby JoeShmoe11 » Sun Oct 31, 2010 2:20 pm

Wow, thank you both for all of that, that was a lot of really helpful information! I was under the impression that Columbia had the edge (if only slightly) in most areas. You are right though, it is ignorant to not apply to NYU especially based on the ridiculously unlikely chances of landing a SCOTUS (thanks for the abbreviation haha). I didn't reaize NYUs PI was so great, going to look into it right now actually! I'm going to go ahead and apply to NYU as well. It's worth the money and a few months down the line I may decide exactly what I want to do in law and find myself wishing I had applied to NYU. Thanks again for all your help, it is very much appreciated.

Renzo
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Re: 3.79/172 - Chances at T4

Postby Renzo » Sun Oct 31, 2010 2:52 pm

NYU undergrads are a blight on society. But don't let that scare you away from the law school. The difference between the student bodies at CLS and NYU is slight; the difference between either of those and the clownish undergrads reading Nietzsche in Union Square is light years.

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JoeShmoe11
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Re: 3.79/172 - Chances at T4

Postby JoeShmoe11 » Sun Oct 31, 2010 3:14 pm

Renzo wrote:NYU undergrads are a blight on society. But don't let that scare you away from the law school. The difference between the student bodies at CLS and NYU is slight; the difference between either of those and the clownish undergrads reading Nietzsche in Union Square is light years.


You hit the nail on the head with that one as to the type of environment I don't like about NYU undergrad haha, seems you've got some experience with NYU undergrad as well! Makes me feel much better about applying to NYU Law if it isn't like that.




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