170/"above average" Foreign GPA rating/PhD in Microbiology Forum

[ThreeYears]

Hi, Friends,

I have already registered for December retake but will go ahead with the 170 (utter disappointment, -8 on LR). I came to US for PhD studies and the GPA from China (83.2/100) was rated as "above average", the 83.2/100 is not a curve based number. My class rank was top 10% (I was one of five student out of 112 who got in US graduate program) but it is not on my academic report.

I will get the PhD in Microbiology (UVa) in December. The graduate GPA is close to 4, but doesn't mean anything.

Any input from you guys will be greatly appreciated. My purpose for the retake is to make a final reach for Stanford, Columbia and Chicago, also for more secured position and scholarship chances at UVa and Michigan.

Once again, thank you for your input.

[thexfactor]

if money isnt a problem I would blanket the lower t14. From NYU down.
I know foreign students cant get loans. But most foreign students are pretty rich;) at least here at washu.

If money is a problem. Apply to schools in the WUSTL/uiuc/fordham/bc/bu/emory/fordham/gw range... etc depending on what city you would like to work in. Also add in Texas and Vandy. They will likely give you some money as well.

WHy dont you hedge your risks. Apply to NW ED and schedule to take the DEC exam. If you get your grades before NW makes a decision and it is higher than a 170 then withdraw from ED.

[ThreeYears]

if money isnt a problem I would blanket the lower t14. From NYU down.
I know foreign students cant get loans. But most foreign students are pretty rich;) at least here at washu.

If money is a problem. Apply to schools in the WUSTL/uiuc/fordham/bc/bu/emory/fordham/gw range... etc depending on what city you would like to work in. Also add in Texas and Vandy. They will likely give you some money as well.

WHy dont you hedge your risks. Apply to NW ED and schedule to take the DEC exam. If you get your grades before NW makes a decision and it is higher than a 170 then withdraw from ED.

No, I am not rich. Actually, dirt poor.

withdraw from ED and aim higher? Can u do that? If I have to ED, I am leaning toward EDing UVa or Michigan though.

Any more inputs? Thanks a lot.

[im_blue]

I would not ED anywhere. With a PhD in Microbiology and a 170 LSAT, you have a decent shot at Stanford.

[ThreeYears]

I would not ED anywhere. With a PhD in Microbiology and a 170 LSAT, you have a decent shot at Stanford.

A long shot though, especially considering a mere "above average" rating by CAS.

[im_blue]

I would not ED anywhere. With a PhD in Microbiology and a 170 LSAT, you have a decent shot at Stanford.

A long shot though, especially considering a mere "above average" rating by CAS.

Either way your foreign GPA doesn't count toward their class numbers, and Stanford loves science degrees especially PhDs.

[ThreeYears]

I would not ED anywhere. With a PhD in Microbiology and a 170 LSAT, you have a decent shot at Stanford.

A long shot though, especially considering a mere "above average" rating by CAS.

Either way your foreign GPA doesn't count toward their class numbers, and Stanford loves science degrees especially PhDs.

Thanks for the encouragement, buddy. I am seeing more and more biology and chemistry PhDs are taking this career change, it's probably not that special anymore.

[MrPapagiorgio]

I would not ED anywhere. With a PhD in Microbiology and a 170 LSAT, you have a decent shot at Stanford.

A long shot though, especially considering a mere "above average" rating by CAS.

Either way your foreign GPA doesn't count toward their class numbers, and Stanford loves science degrees especially PhDs.

Thanks for the encouragement, buddy. I am seeing more and more biology and chemistry PhDs are taking this career change, it's probably not that special anymore.

Just out of curiosity, why would you want to make a career change when you are only finishing the first step in a career in Microbiology? Not judging you, just wondering why you put in all that work only to go in a totally different direction without giving it a chance?

[ThreeYears]

Thanks for the encouragement, buddy. I am seeing more and more biology and chemistry PhDs are taking this career change, it's probably not that special anymore.

Just out of curiosity, why would you want to make a career change when you are only finishing the first step in a career in Microbiology? Not judging you, just wondering why you put in all that work only to go in a totally different direction without giving it a chance?

It's ok. I don't mind u asking.

The training wont be wasted, having a bio PhD is required to do IP work in biotech. So it is a first step in another line of work.

Too many biologists are generated by the system. The bio-research (chemistry too) is very labor intensive, the bench work has to be done by actual human beings. The work is explosively expanding with the knowledge and the need for the knowledge. The only way out of this was to increase the cheapest labor base: graduate students. But after we complete the training, there aren't so many jobs at the other end to absolve us, except becoming a slightly more expensive labor: post-doc. Because of the irrational and infuriating disproportion between how much time/effort I have to put into work (60 to 70 hrs a week, and I am not the most hardworking) and how much I am paid (420 after tax each week, minimum wage), I refuse to accept living like this anymore.

[Fevsi]

Your biggest problem is not getting into a good school: your PhD will help a lot, and 170 coupled with it is a great score everywhere apart from HY. However, assuming you get into NCC or BPM - how are you going to pay for it, given that loans for international students are not available? Do you have someone who will co-sign for you? If not, I'd say, start looking right away!

[thwalls]

Very cool to see someone from UVa doing what I did. I graduated last year with my PhD from the chemistry program and I'm currently going to Temple Law PT. Just to let you know that I'm not blowing smoke, before I give any advice, here's where I'm at. I'm a 1L, I went to Temple since it's close to the folks, I qualified for In-State tuition and they gave me a great scholarship, and I got a position as a patent agent prior to starting law school.

Here's what I'd do if I were you:

1. Take the patent bar ASAP and get your Reg. Number.
2. Start looking for patent agent/tech advisor positions at law firms with less than 25 attorneys (they're the only ones that will give you the time of day) in cities that you would like to attend law school.
3. Apply to law schools PT and FT in those areas (aim for a lower ranked school with your numbers and get a full ride)
4. If a job comes in, great, go PT and take the experience with it.
5. If no job comes in, take a FT acceptance with a nice scholarship.

People can make fun of the PT gig all they want. In IP prosecution, experience trumps pedigree every time. There's a 3 year learning curve once you actually start patent prosecution and law school doesn't teach any of it. I'm assuming that you want to do prosecution with the PhD. If you're interested in litigation, then just forget everything I said.

Best of luck to a fellow Wahoo though!

[thexfactor]

you might need to apply lower. How are you going to get loans for stanford or other T14s. I dont think non us citizens can get the same loans us citizens get...
vandy should prob give you close to full scholarship.

[deadpoetnsp]

1. Take the patent bar ASAP and get your Reg. Number.

Best of luck to a fellow Wahoo though!

Thanks, thwalls. I'm a foreign applicant like the OP and have an engineering MS. The thing is, only US citizens or residents can give the patent bar. The only way non-citizens/residents can give the bar is by finding a job with a law firm, and petitioning the USPTO to sit for the patent bar through the firm. You then get a 'limited' registration number that is in effect only as long as you are employed with that firm. So it's a catch-22 situation for a (foreign) person with no prior patent work-exp.

In my own case, I have two years of practical experience about the US patent system, having working as a technology specialist under close supervision by patent attorneys. But I am not a registered patent agent. So even though I look, walk and talk like a duck, I'm not a duck

Based on discussions with people from a similar background who are now patent attorneys, two ways to go about it are

Path A
1) Go to law school, targeting schools that will give you a full scholarship at your LSAT/GPA range
2) Give the regular bar (not the patent bar) which, foreign applicants can sit for.
3) Study for the patent bar and be ready to give it
4) Get employed, and immediately give the patent bar.

Path B
1) Go to law school, targeting schools that will give you a full scholarship at your LSAT/GPA range
2) Study for the patent bar and be ready to give it
3) Get an externship with an IP firm during law school, give the patent bar
4) Complete law school
5) Get employed with the firm at which you did the externship

People who are wiser in these matters, please add information as needed, or correct what I've said above.

@ThreeYears, feel free to PM me if you need any info about patent work itself.

[thwalls]

I must be a little confused about the situation then.

37 CFR 11.6(b):
(b) Agents. Any citizen of the United States who is not an attorney, and who fulfills the requirements of this part may be registered as a patent agent to practice before the Office. When appropriate, any alien who is not an attorney, who lawfully resides in the United States, and who fulfills the requirements of this part may be registered as a patent agent to practice before the Office, provided that such registration is not inconsistent with the terms upon which the alien was admitted to, and resides in, the United States, and further provided that the alien may remain registered only:

(1) If the alien continues to lawfully reside in the United States and registration does not become inconsistent with the terms upon which the alien continues to lawfully reside in the United States or

(2) If the alien ceases to reside in the United States, the alien is qualified to be registered under paragraph (c) of this section. See also § 11.9(b).

Doesn't that mean that a non-citizen can practice before the patent office? Also, you can only practice before the PTO from within the United States anyway, so I'm not sure of the issue here. Then again, I'm not very familiar with how the Visa system works for employment, or exactly how "registration does not become inconsistent with the terms upon which the alien continues to lawfully reside in the United States" is construed.

I hope my comments then didn't offer any more confusion then to an already confusing issue.

[deadpoetnsp]

Your comments have in fact enabled further clarification

What I have underlined below is the most relevant part. "consistent with terms" means "the alien was admitted to the US for employment with a firm that requires as an essential part of the job registration before the USPTO."

37 CFR 11.6(b):
(b) Agents. Any citizen of the United States who is not an attorney, and who fulfills the requirements of this part may be registered as a patent agent to practice before the Office. When appropriate, any alien who is not an attorney, who lawfully resides in the United States, and who fulfills the requirements of this part may be registered as a patent agent to practice before the Office, provided that such registration is not inconsistent with the terms upon which the alien was admitted to, and resides in, the United States, and further provided that the alien may remain registered only:

(1) If the alien continues to lawfully reside in the United States and registration does not become inconsistent with the terms upon which the alien continues to lawfully reside in the United States or

For instance, this is taken from http://patbar.com/uspto-patent-bar-exam ... ents.shtml

Besides meeting the educational requirements, there are citizenship requirements. If an applicant is not a US citizen or permanent resident (green card), there are very limited options to qualify to take the exam.

An alien residing in the United States may be granted permission to take the exam if he or she is admitted to the country to work in activities related to patent procurement. The applicant’s visa documentation must specifically state that they are admitted to the US to do or be trained to do patent work, and the applicant should include copies of all documentation.

For the most part, this means that the applicant must be sponsored by an employer to work in the specialty occupation of patent prosecution. Note also that the applicant won’t become registered as a patent practitioner, but only given limited recognition which expires when he or she leaves the country.

In fact the USPTO grants "limited registration" status to aliens, and they are technically not registered as patent practitioners (so they cannot setup their own firm, practice outside the firm, or file for other clients on the side)

Aliens admitted to law school are admitted on an F1 visa, and the terms of that entry only allow aliens admitted to the US to study law in a specific law school. In fact, while on an F1 visa, only on-campus employment is allowed when classes are in session and that too, not more than 20 hours per week. Summer internships/externships can be considered to be a part of legal education. Hence, an externship that requires you to do patent work will be "consistent" with you needing to give the patent bar, BUT only for that specific position. Further, after completing three years of law school, the F1 visa allows aliens to reside in the US for an additional period of 12 months on an "Optional Practical Training" extension of the visa, during which one can seek employment with a (patent) firm. Again during that period, giving the bar would be "consistent" if the employment requires patent work as an essential part of the job.

Hope this helps resolve matters, and also helps the OP and others like me in this situation.

[thwalls]

Your comments have in fact enabled further clarification

What I have underlined below is the most relevant part. "consistent with terms" means "the alien was admitted to the US for employment with a firm that requires as an essential part of the job registration before the USPTO."

37 CFR 11.6(b):
(b) Agents. Any citizen of the United States who is not an attorney, and who fulfills the requirements of this part may be registered as a patent agent to practice before the Office. When appropriate, any alien who is not an attorney, who lawfully resides in the United States, and who fulfills the requirements of this part may be registered as a patent agent to practice before the Office, provided that such registration is not inconsistent with the terms upon which the alien was admitted to, and resides in, the United States, and further provided that the alien may remain registered only:

(1) If the alien continues to lawfully reside in the United States and registration does not become inconsistent with the terms upon which the alien continues to lawfully reside in the United States or

For instance, this is taken from http://patbar.com/uspto-patent-bar-exam ... ents.shtml

Besides meeting the educational requirements, there are citizenship requirements. If an applicant is not a US citizen or permanent resident (green card), there are very limited options to qualify to take the exam.

An alien residing in the United States may be granted permission to take the exam if he or she is admitted to the country to work in activities related to patent procurement. The applicant’s visa documentation must specifically state that they are admitted to the US to do or be trained to do patent work, and the applicant should include copies of all documentation.

For the most part, this means that the applicant must be sponsored by an employer to work in the specialty occupation of patent prosecution. Note also that the applicant won’t become registered as a patent practitioner, but only given limited recognition which expires when he or she leaves the country.

In fact the USPTO grants "limited registration" status to aliens, and they are technically not registered as patent practitioners (so they cannot setup their own firm, practice outside the firm, or file for other clients on the side)

Aliens admitted to law school are admitted on an F1 visa, and the terms of that entry only allow aliens admitted to the US to study law in a specific law school. In fact, while on an F1 visa, only on-campus employment is allowed when classes are in session and that too, not more than 20 hours per week. Summer internships/externships can be considered to be a part of legal education. Hence, an externship that requires you to do patent work will be "consistent" with you needing to give the patent bar, BUT only for that specific position. Further, after completing three years of law school, the F1 visa allows aliens to reside in the US for an additional period of 12 months on an "Optional Practical Training" extension of the visa, during which one can seek employment with a (patent) firm. Again during that period, giving the bar would be "consistent" if the employment requires patent work as an essential part of the job.

Hope this helps resolve matters, and also helps the OP and others like me in this situation.

I never would have realized that they made it so difficult on foreign students. That's exactly what I meant though about not understanding how the PTO construes the language. That just seems like a lot of hoops to jump through.

[deadpoetnsp]

Well, at least it forces foreign applicants like me to be dead sure that this is what we want to get into. Weirdly, having to jump through hoops has strengthened my resolve!