Terrible news and how it effects my chances

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JazzOne
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Re: Terrible news and how it effects my chances

Postby JazzOne » Wed Oct 27, 2010 5:59 pm

Remnantofisrael wrote:right, but if I feel like I SHOULD be at a T-14 with my abilities and whatnot, doesn't going to a Loyola put me in a position where I SHOULD be in the top 20%? I mean, nothing is a sure thing, but come on.

You'll be competing against a lot of desperate people, all fighting for a couple $160K jobs. When you raise the stakes that high, it can be pretty cut-throat, even if you are technically smarter than they are. I mean, your UG GPA doesn't exactly inspire confidence. It's a big gamble. And plus, I seriously doubt top 20% is good enough at Loyola to transfer up to T14. Top 10% maybe? Probably more like top 5%.
Last edited by JazzOne on Wed Oct 27, 2010 6:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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bk1
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Re: Terrible news and how it effects my chances

Postby bk1 » Wed Oct 27, 2010 6:00 pm

Remnantofisrael wrote:right, but if I feel like I SHOULD be at a T-14 with my abilities and whatnot, doesn't going to a Loyola put me in a position where I SHOULD be in the top 20%? I mean, nothing is a sure thing, but come on.

Yes, you're more likely to do well than your peers, but your chances of doing well are still small.

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im_blue
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Re: Terrible news and how it effects my chances

Postby im_blue » Wed Oct 27, 2010 6:01 pm

Remnantofisrael wrote:
JazzOne wrote:
Remnantofisrael wrote:
mala2 wrote:Can you do really well the first year somewhere and try transferring?


I have an aunt at Loyola Chicago who told me to go that route.

No, no, no, no. That is terrible advice.


Can someone extrapolate a bit on this? I was told that if I could stay in the top 20% or so and get proper recommendations I would have a good shot of transferring. I mean, anyone have any statistics to shoot this idea down?

You'll probably need at least top 10% at Loyola Chicago to transfer to a T14, and even then OCI won't necessarily go better for you. Some employers won't interview you if they wouldn't have interviewed you at your old school.
Last edited by im_blue on Wed Oct 27, 2010 6:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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thexfactor
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Re: Terrible news and how it effects my chances

Postby thexfactor » Wed Oct 27, 2010 6:02 pm

wustl will welcome you with open arms :D

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thexfactor
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Re: Terrible news and how it effects my chances

Postby thexfactor » Wed Oct 27, 2010 6:04 pm

bk1 wrote:
Remnantofisrael wrote:right, but if I feel like I SHOULD be at a T-14 with my abilities and whatnot, doesn't going to a Loyola put me in a position where I SHOULD be in the top 20%? I mean, nothing is a sure thing, but come on.

Yes, you're more likely to do well than your peers, but your chances of doing well are still small.


Not in this economy. Most schools are cutting back transfer classes... ITE prob top 5% or so for T14... single digits for Vandy/ucla/tejas....

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im_blue
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Re: Terrible news and how it effects my chances

Postby im_blue » Wed Oct 27, 2010 6:06 pm

thexfactor wrote:
bk1 wrote:
Remnantofisrael wrote:right, but if I feel like I SHOULD be at a T-14 with my abilities and whatnot, doesn't going to a Loyola put me in a position where I SHOULD be in the top 20%? I mean, nothing is a sure thing, but come on.

Yes, you're more likely to do well than your peers, but your chances of doing well are still small.


Not in this economy. Most schools are cutting back transfer classes

I'm not disputing that they are, but it seems to me that it would make sense to take more transfer students who pay full sticker ITE.

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rayiner
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Re: Terrible news and how it effects my chances

Postby rayiner » Wed Oct 27, 2010 6:06 pm

There is no reason to go to U of M over NU with your background.

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reasonable_man
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Re: Terrible news and how it effects my chances

Postby reasonable_man » Wed Oct 27, 2010 6:07 pm

mala2 wrote:Can you do really well the first year somewhere and try transferring?



Shit terrible advice. Don't say it again.

CanadianWolf
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Re: Terrible news and how it effects my chances

Postby CanadianWolf » Wed Oct 27, 2010 6:12 pm

Northwestern is a reach with an LSAT score of 170 combined with a GPA of 2.98 even with 6 years of stellar work experience, although it is your best option.
LSAC GPAs are somewhat skewed anyway since the organization gives credit for A+ grades even though few schools grade above an A.
Last edited by CanadianWolf on Wed Oct 27, 2010 6:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

new2game09
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Re: Terrible news and how it effects my chances

Postby new2game09 » Wed Oct 27, 2010 6:14 pm

It's never smart to rely on transferring. I know several people who busted their asses and had numbers way about the school's median, but ended up below median grade-wise.

Also, you have to consider that a much of the class has the same plan as you. I'm sure at least 10% of your class will have stats like yours or better, with a plan of going to a mediocre school and busting ass b/c they think they're only competing with dumbasses, and then transfer the hell outta there. It doesn't work that way. Your first year is a tricky thing.

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im_blue
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Re: Terrible news and how it effects my chances

Postby im_blue » Wed Oct 27, 2010 6:18 pm

new2game09 wrote:I'm sure at least 10% of your class will have stats like yours or better, with a plan of going to a mediocre school and busting ass b/c they think they're only competing with dumbasses, and then transfer the hell outta there. It doesn't work that way. Your first year is a tricky thing.

+1. Every law school has splitters who think they're smarter than everyone else, as well as reverse splitters who think they can work harder than everyone else. No one can count on top 10% grades.

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rayiner
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Re: Terrible news and how it effects my chances

Postby rayiner » Wed Oct 27, 2010 6:20 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:Northwestern is a reach with an LSAT score of 170 combined with a GPA of 2.98 even with 6 years of stellar work experience, although it is your best option.
LSAC GPAs are somewhat skewed anyway since the organization gives credit for A+ grades even though few schools grade above an A.


172/3.0 would do it.

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vanwinkle
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Re: Terrible news and how it effects my chances

Postby vanwinkle » Wed Oct 27, 2010 6:22 pm

Remnantofisrael wrote:right, but if I feel like I SHOULD be at a T-14 with my abilities and whatnot, doesn't going to a Loyola put me in a position where I SHOULD be in the top 20%? I mean, nothing is a sure thing, but come on.

No. Generally, success in law school is not that neatly predictable. LSAT and GPA combined can correlate well in the aggregate to law school performance and bar passage, but correlation does not guarantee individual success at all. It's not a strong correlation, which means there are lots of people who manage to do poorly despite high LSAT/GPA and vice versa. Not only that, but most if not all people at a school, no matter what school you go to, will be trying their hardest to make the top of the class, especially ITE. And while some of them will have weakness where you have strengths going in (maybe they'll have lower LSAT scores), they could also have strengths where you have weaknesses (high GPAs, WE that gave them better insight into legal thinking, the ability to study 18 hours per day for weeks at a time without going crazy) that give them advantages you're not anticipating.

Maybe you should be at a T14, but once you're at the T14 you could end up being one of the people who struggles more than the rest. The same thing would happen at a lower-ranked school, because it's largely the same material. A high LSAT or having WE doesn't guarantee you'll be one of the people who gets everything they need to, and there's a lot you have to get to make top 20% or better anywhere, whether it's Loyola or Northwestern you're talking about.

This is the biggest mistake people going to law school make: Going in, you should never assume how well you'll do in advance. Always assume that 100% of the people at a law school are going to want to do well and might have what it takes. If what they need is top 20%, then 80% of them will be disappointed. If what they need is top 10%, then 90% of them will be disappointed. And to transfer up from a place like Loyola Chicago to T14, you'd need top 10% or better. And you should assume that everyone else in the class has the same shot at that as you do, because until you actually have grades, you have no way of knowing for sure who in your class has what it takes to be in that 10%.

So you should treat that plan as having a 90% or greater chance of failure, because you have no way of proving you'd be in that top 10% or even anywhere near that until after you've started law school and earned your first semester grades... and by then it's too late, and if you're wrong, you're stuck at a low-tier school with terrible grades and little chance of finding legal employment, and despite whatever scholarship money you get, you'll still be taking out tens of thousands in loans for COL expenses and whatever tuition your scholarship doesn't cover.

Do you really want to gamble like that?

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blurbz
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Re: Terrible news and how it effects my chances

Postby blurbz » Wed Oct 27, 2010 6:24 pm

--ImageRemoved--


...Yeah, you try that.

CanadianWolf
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Re: Terrible news and how it effects my chances

Postby CanadianWolf » Wed Oct 27, 2010 6:26 pm

lawschoolnumbers.com graphs show, contrary to my opinion posted above, that a 2.98 GPA & a 170 LSAT score should be good for at least a waitlist at Northwestern. The graphs do not indicate whether those applicants applied ED or RD, however. Hopefully the OP scored above 170 on the October LSAT.

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Dr. Strangelove
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Re: Terrible news and how it effects my chances

Postby Dr. Strangelove » Wed Oct 27, 2010 6:28 pm

Remnantofisrael wrote:right, but if I feel like I SHOULD be at a T-14 with my abilities and whatnot, doesn't going to a Loyola put me in a position where I SHOULD be in the top 20%? I mean, nothing is a sure thing, but come on.


It definitely isn't a sure thing. I would advise against taking that route because you could find that you're stuck at a place like Loyola (you don't know if you can transfer up till you receive your law school grades...)- I'd only go if you're not taking on a lot of debt.

SupraVln180
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Re: Terrible news and how it effects my chances

Postby SupraVln180 » Wed Oct 27, 2010 6:34 pm

as long as you have the WE to separate you from that GPA, NU is your best bet. Good luck.

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Remnantofisrael
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Re: Terrible news and how it effects my chances

Postby Remnantofisrael » Wed Oct 27, 2010 6:39 pm

responded before I refreshed. Sorry.

That makes sense, and I am now well convinced that banking on a transfer is a bad idea. Maybe I should just start warming up to the idea of Boulder or Seattle. Just pick a law school that puts me somewhere I wouldn't mind working.

Understand that I was told by my advisor that my GPA would be a 3.13+ and I actually went down this path including leaving my previous career based on this tid-bit of bullshit. Its amazing that this tiny difference can make-or-break. A couple weeks ago people were saying that with the 3.13, 170+ LSAT, and impressive WE, I had a real chance ED at a bunch of schools. Now I'm out of the top-14. Seems rather arbitrary. No, not the right term. Seems fucking stupid. Then again, I suppose its only fair to create SOME arbitrary measure and separator, just out of necessity.

It was my decision, at 17 as a freshman in college, recently obtaining a GED to get out of the hellhole I was in, to say grades didn't matter because I was never going to grad school anyway. Stupid me. I wish I had a time machine- I wouldn't tell my old self anything because I know I wouldn't listen. I would just kick my old self in the balls.
Last edited by Remnantofisrael on Wed Oct 27, 2010 6:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Remnantofisrael
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Re: Terrible news and how it effects my chances

Postby Remnantofisrael » Wed Oct 27, 2010 6:42 pm

rayiner wrote:There is no reason to go to U of M over NU with your background.


Except I have a family, Ann Arbor is much better for my kids and wife, and I have family there, and I don't want to go into corporate law if I can avoid it.

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bk1
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Re: Terrible news and how it effects my chances

Postby bk1 » Wed Oct 27, 2010 6:44 pm

Remnantofisrael wrote:Except I have a family, Ann Arbor is much better for my kids and wife, and I have family there, and I don't want to go into corporate law if I can avoid it.


You have a very minimal chance at UMich, sadly.

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im_blue
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Re: Terrible news and how it effects my chances

Postby im_blue » Wed Oct 27, 2010 6:46 pm

Remnantofisrael wrote:
rayiner wrote:There is no reason to go to U of M over NU with your background.


Except I have a family, Ann Arbor is much better for my kids and wife, and I have family there, and I don't want to go into corporate law if I can avoid it.

You could go to whichever T14 you can get into, i.e. Northwestern, and then transfer to Michigan if that's what you really want.

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Remnantofisrael
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Re: Terrible news and how it effects my chances

Postby Remnantofisrael » Wed Oct 27, 2010 6:50 pm

im_blue wrote:
Remnantofisrael wrote:
rayiner wrote:There is no reason to go to U of M over NU with your background.


Except I have a family, Ann Arbor is much better for my kids and wife, and I have family there, and I don't want to go into corporate law if I can avoid it.

You could go to whichever T14 you can get into, i.e. Northwestern, and then transfer to Michigan if that's what you really want.


So how hard is that I wonder? Truth be told, moving my family two more times (already did it once last year) and then again a couple years later is just unfair to them.

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bk1
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Re: Terrible news and how it effects my chances

Postby bk1 » Wed Oct 27, 2010 6:53 pm

Remnantofisrael wrote:So how hard is that I wonder? Truth be told, moving my family two more times (already did it once last year) and then again a couple years later is just unfair to them.


I don't have a family but I agree that that seems crappy.

If you really are dead set on the T14 I would decide whether your family would be better off in Chicago or Charlottesville.

rostovru
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Re: Terrible news and how it effects my chances

Postby rostovru » Wed Oct 27, 2010 7:01 pm

Just sort out your UGPA now. Even if it means getting pushy. I'm sure you can get things straightened out with two days of endless emailing, calling and filing docs.

12262010
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Re: Terrible news and how it effects my chances

Postby 12262010 » Wed Oct 27, 2010 7:05 pm

Remnantofisrael wrote:right, but if I feel like I SHOULD be at a T-14 with my abilities and whatnot, doesn't going to a Loyola put me in a position where I SHOULD be in the top 20%? I mean, nothing is a sure thing, but come on.


oh lol @ you.




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