How do you think?

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lawyer
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How do you think?

Postby lawyer » Sun Oct 03, 2010 5:02 pm

GPA: 3.72
LSAT: Expecting around 160 next weekend, but none on file.

Excellent teaching quality and graduating with the least amount of debt are the most important factors to me. I was wondering which law schools would be best for me?

I live in Michigan, so here are the schools in Michigan I might be able to get into:

Wayne State University Law School
University of Detroit Mercy
Michigan State University

The schools I really want to go to, but chances are slim (plus I'd have to move and wouldn't get any $$$) are:

Washington and Lee
William and Mary
Notre Dame

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kalvano
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Re: How do you think?

Postby kalvano » Sun Oct 03, 2010 11:38 pm

I think you need to clearly establish what you want and where you want to work.

lawyer
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Re: How do you think?

Postby lawyer » Sun Oct 03, 2010 11:48 pm

kalvano wrote:I think you need to clearly establish what you want and where you want to work.


It's hard to say for certain since I've never had any law classes, but international, environmental, and civil rights law is important to me. Ideally, I would also like to work as a federal judge. I'm less concerned with job location as I am with actually having a job.

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Patriot1208
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Re: How do you think?

Postby Patriot1208 » Sun Oct 03, 2010 11:50 pm

lawyer wrote:
kalvano wrote:I think you need to clearly establish what you want and where you want to work.


It's hard to say for certain since I've never had any law classes, but international, environmental, and civil rights law is important to me. Ideally, I would also like to work as a federal judge. I'm less concerned with job location as I am with actually having a job.


If you want to work in the almost non-existent international and civil rights law/be a federal judge the only credited response is you need to go to Harvard, Yale, or Stanford. Otherwise, the likelihood of any of that happening is >1%

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bk1
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Re: How do you think?

Postby bk1 » Sun Oct 03, 2010 11:50 pm

lawyer wrote:
kalvano wrote:I think you need to clearly establish what you want and where you want to work.


It's hard to say for certain since I've never had any law classes, but international, environmental, and civil rights law is important to me. Ideally, I would also like to work as a federal judge. I'm less concerned with job location as I am with actually having a job.


Then you should retake the LSAT if you get around a 160.

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kalvano
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Re: How do you think?

Postby kalvano » Sun Oct 03, 2010 11:55 pm

lawyer wrote:
kalvano wrote:I think you need to clearly establish what you want and where you want to work.


It's hard to say for certain since I've never had any law classes, but international, environmental, and civil rights law is important to me. Ideally, I would also like to work as a federal judge. I'm less concerned with job location as I am with actually having a job.


Then you need to come to terms with either:

1) Some debt, as to find a job you need better schools.
2) Re-taking the LSAT and increasing your score by 12-15 points so a well-ranked and recognized school will give you lots of money.

lawyer
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Re: How do you think?

Postby lawyer » Mon Oct 04, 2010 12:30 am

Can you guys/gals give some explanations about the difficulties you mentioned regarding international/civil rights/judge jobs?

Just to confirm, I should not apply to any of those schools in Michigan nor the other three schools I mentioned, correct? If so, where would be the best places for me to apply?

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kalvano
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Re: How do you think?

Postby kalvano » Mon Oct 04, 2010 12:42 am

Law school is about prestige of the school. The basic education won't differ no matter where you go, typically. The school name on your JD is what opens doors.

As far as international law, it's basically a non-existent field. If someone in England wants a lawyer, they hire an English lawyer, not an American one, and vice-versa. If by "international law" you mean like working between governments or corporations in different countries, those jobs are going to go to people with years and years of experience and who know the proverbial "someone special".

Civil rights cases are the same way.

As for judgeships, see above about prestige. It matters.

I'd suggest doing a little more research before hopping on the law school wagon.

As far as where to apply, well, where do you want to live for a while? Odds are, outside the top 14 or so schools, you're going to be in that region a while.

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Patriot1208
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Re: How do you think?

Postby Patriot1208 » Mon Oct 04, 2010 8:47 am

kalvano wrote:Law school is about prestige of the school. The basic education won't differ no matter where you go, typically. The school name on your JD is what opens doors.

As far as international law, it's basically a non-existent field. If someone in England wants a lawyer, they hire an English lawyer, not an American one, and vice-versa. If by "international law" you mean like working between governments or corporations in different countries, those jobs are going to go to people with years and years of experience and who know the proverbial "someone special".

Civil rights cases are the same way.

As for judgeships, see above about prestige. It matters.

I'd suggest doing a little more research before hopping on the law school wagon.

As far as where to apply, well, where do you want to live for a while? Odds are, outside the top 14 or so schools, you're going to be in that region a while.


You've basically stated that you want to work the hardest jobs possible but you don't have the numbers to get into the type of schools that are likely to get those jobs. It's the same reason investment banks don't recruit out of Idaho university. There is just no reason to. And you do realize federal judgeships are presidential appointed positions? There are not many of them and you have to play politics to get one. And once someone is on they are there for life.

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Grizz
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Re: How do you think?

Postby Grizz » Mon Oct 04, 2010 9:43 am

I worked for an attorney who handled some civil rights claims, mainly police brutality, wrongful arrest, etc. There are a host of people who try to sue on these grounds, though most of them can't state a claim. But this probably isn't what you're thinking of. Also, it's not really fail to call him a civil rights lawyers, as he did other civil litigation and criminal defense as well.

Also, standard intl. law article http://www.annaivey.com/iveyfiles/2008/11/international_law_believe_the_hype

Retake if you get a 160.

lawyer
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Re: How do you think?

Postby lawyer » Mon Oct 04, 2010 11:54 am

Can you guys also talk about your background some more, such as your experiences in seeking employment as a lawyer, what schools you went to, what field of law you practice, etc.?

Is environmental law like the other fields you guys have talked about?

Does one's work experience ever become more powerful than school prestige?

2011Law
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Re: How do you think?

Postby 2011Law » Mon Oct 04, 2010 12:05 pm

lawyer wrote:Does one's work experience ever become more powerful than school prestige?


Wow, umm yes. Unless you want to be an academic, your work experience will become the main thing that firms/gov't look at when you look for work (I guess this starts being the case around 5 yrs out, though not sure really). I have one uncle that went to a TTT and he's done pretty well for himself (I'm pretty sure he's got near 10m in assets), and another who came from a t30 and went on to be a fed judge (not Art 3).

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Patriot1208
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Re: How do you think?

Postby Patriot1208 » Mon Oct 04, 2010 12:08 pm

2011Law wrote:
lawyer wrote:Does one's work experience ever become more powerful than school prestige?


Wow, umm yes. Unless you want to be an academic, your work experience will become the main thing that firms/gov't look at when you look for work (I guess this starts being the case around 5 yrs out, though not sure really). I have one uncle that went to a TTT and he's done pretty well for himself (I'm pretty sure he's got near 10m in assets), and another who came from a t30 and went on to be a fed judge (not Art 3).


This has been rehashed over and over again. The legal market in general is so much more competitive than it was when your uncle came out. This means that people from Ohio State aren't getting anywhere near the competitive or amount of competitive jobs that people did 20 years ago. Does experience become more important? Yes. But the problem is the experience you need to move on to these types of sought after jobs is experience that you can almost only exclusively get from the top schools.

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Grizz
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Re: How do you think?

Postby Grizz » Mon Oct 04, 2010 5:58 pm

lawyer wrote:Can you guys also talk about your background some more, such as your experiences in seeking employment as a lawyer, what schools you went to, what field of law you practice, etc.?

Is environmental law like the other fields you guys have talked about?

Does one's work experience ever become more powerful than school prestige?


Not a lawyer; worked as a paralegal for 2 firms. 4 lawyers in the immediate family.

Environmental law exists, but most of it is regulatory compliance for companies who want to log/fish/mine etc. There isn't a ton of genuine "saving the environment" type law. What does exist can also be extremely competitive. Worth going for, but nothing to bank on.

Prestigious schooling generally leads to prestigious and better employment.

lawyer
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Re: How do you think?

Postby lawyer » Sat Oct 16, 2010 3:15 pm

If I enrolled at one of the three Michigan schools I mentioned earlier, would it be realistic to transfer to Michigan Law School at some time?
Last edited by lawyer on Sun Oct 17, 2010 4:51 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Lonagan
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Re: How do you think?

Postby Lonagan » Sat Oct 16, 2010 3:25 pm

You should probably not go to law school.

lawyer
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Re: How do you think?

Postby lawyer » Sun Oct 17, 2010 4:50 pm

It would be impressive if people actually answered the questions that posters ask. Almost everybody who has posted in this thread has changed the subject and not answered several of my questions.

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JazzOne
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Re: How do you think?

Postby JazzOne » Sun Oct 17, 2010 4:52 pm

lawyer wrote:It would be impressive if people actually answered the questions that posters ask. Almost everybody who has posted in this thread has changed the subject and not answered several of my questions.

Retake

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Grizz
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Re: How do you think?

Postby Grizz » Sun Oct 17, 2010 5:07 pm

lawyer wrote:If I enrolled at one of the three Michigan schools I mentioned earlier, would it be realistic to transfer to Michigan Law School at some time?


Don't plan on it. You can't predict being at the top of your class. Don't go to a school you wouldn't be happy graduating from.

lawyer wrote:It would be impressive if people actually answered the questions that posters ask. Almost everybody who has posted in this thread has changed the subject and not answered several of my questions.


Doesn't mean it's not equally valid advice.

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Lonagan
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Re: How do you think?

Postby Lonagan » Sun Oct 17, 2010 6:14 pm

lawyer wrote:It would be impressive if people actually answered the questions that posters ask. Almost everybody who has posted in this thread has changed the subject and not answered several of my questions.


You have asked vague questions reflecting a poor understanding of how law school works. People have answered the questions you should have asked.




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