URM AAFemale 3.4 T14 chances?

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esquire2014
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URM AAFemale 3.4 T14 chances?

Postby esquire2014 » Wed Sep 22, 2010 4:33 pm

Hi! Im currently practice and at highest im getting a 157. Im taking the test in 2 weeks and studying test masters like my life depends on it. My softs are really strong and my PS is pretty good (at least I hope so) what do you think my chances are for T14? I keep getting the same message from everyone around me T14 or Howard or death and im trying really hard to ignore it and focus. Any advice or comments would be greatly appreciated

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merichard87
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Re: URM AAFemale 3.4 T14 chances?

Postby merichard87 » Wed Sep 22, 2010 4:39 pm

T14 or Howard (if you want DC or NYC) or death



Just kidding. Aim for 160, retake in December if you need to. Good luck.

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PDaddy
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Re: URM AAFemale 3.4 T14 chances?

Postby PDaddy » Wed Sep 22, 2010 5:05 pm

First, you should assume that you are probably performing at 152 or so on the real thing. There's typically a 5-point drop on the real test. That suggests that you will wind up re-taking the exam if you don't improve fast. On the other hand, you could wind up doing better than you do in practice, as rarely happens. With a 157-159 and really strong soft factors, you may be able to get into Cornell, Duke, or GULC. Chicago would also give you a look if you write really well.

But I will say this, it's getting increasingly more difficult for URM's to get into the elite schools with anything below 160 regardless of grades. This should please many white students, who think the "break" given to uRM's is unfair.

One thing working in your favor is that the top law schools really covet URM females because there are so few in the profession. If i were you, I would take the October test but register for December, as well. If you don't do as well as you hope, cancel the score (if you're not sure, keep it, as schools will likely average multiple scores anyways) and retake.

Ideally, you would like to submit just one score, but you don't know what your best score is unless you keep them.

As for the "T14 or Howard" thing? Uh...NO!...NO! That mentality is keeping URM's out of the profession. First of all, there are four schools that can be argued as lower T14 schools from either an education standpoint, an employment standpoint, or both (UCLA, USC, Texas, and Vanderbilt). But you should not be disappointed if you wind up at a school like WUSTL, GWU, Notre Dame, or Minnesota, all extremely well regarded schools with excellent employment prospects.

And, what do you do about schools like Fordham, UW-Seattle, Wisconsin, UC-Hastings, and William and Mary? UW-Seattle, Wisconsin and Hastings have all been ranked as high as #23, and they have strong regional reputations. William & Mary has good employment prospects.

But even if you go to a top-50 school, employers are willing to look deeper into the pool for you. As a URM, you can make top-40% at a top-50 school and do as well as a top-25% Howard student. The top-10% at Howard do as well as students anywhere, true. But, as with all schools, somebody has to make up that lower 90%.
Last edited by PDaddy on Thu Sep 23, 2010 3:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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gwuorbust
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Re: URM AAFemale 3.4 T14 chances?

Postby gwuorbust » Wed Sep 22, 2010 7:11 pm

if you are practice testing at 157 then I'd advise not even taking the test. wait, take it next june, work your score up to preferably a 170+ and then run when you are given a free ride. it literally means the difference between no job prospects and hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt and complete freedom to do whatever you want with your career.

esquire2014
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Re: URM AAFemale 3.4 T14 chances?

Postby esquire2014 » Thu Sep 23, 2010 12:55 am

gwuorbust wrote:if you are practice testing at 157 then I'd advise not even taking the test. wait, take it next june, work your score up to preferably a 170+ and then run when you are given a free ride. it literally means the difference between no job prospects and hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt and complete freedom to do whatever you want with your career.


Taking it in june is not a viable option unless absolutely necessary. I would rather not delay going to school and having to find something to do for a year.

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bk1
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Re: URM AAFemale 3.4 T14 chances?

Postby bk1 » Thu Sep 23, 2010 12:58 am

esquire2014 wrote:
gwuorbust wrote:if you are practice testing at 157 then I'd advise not even taking the test. wait, take it next june, work your score up to preferably a 170+ and then run when you are given a free ride. it literally means the difference between no job prospects and hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt and complete freedom to do whatever you want with your career.


Taking it in june is not a viable option unless absolutely necessary. I would rather not delay going to school and having to find something to do for a year.


Waiting a year is definitely worth it if you can score decently higher in June. The quality of schools and quality of scholarships you get will dramatically increase and your job prospects and debt down the road will be in much better shape.

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gwuorbust
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Re: URM AAFemale 3.4 T14 chances?

Postby gwuorbust » Thu Sep 23, 2010 8:40 am

esquire2014 wrote:
gwuorbust wrote:if you are practice testing at 157 then I'd advise not even taking the test. wait, take it next june, work your score up to preferably a 170+ and then run when you are given a free ride. it literally means the difference between no job prospects and hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt and complete freedom to do whatever you want with your career.


Taking it in june is not a viable option unless absolutely necessary. I would rather not delay going to school and having to find something to do for a year.


plz, describe what prevents you from retaking. we will judge whether it is a worthwhile reason to turn down 150k in schly and $160k a year biglaw salary for a 60k a year doc review job from a TTT where you will accumulate 200k in debt. and if it is simply a matter of not wanting to wait a year be forewarned that if you go to a TTT LS you will almost assuredly not be get getting a good job.

this is not a matter of 'possibly not getting a good job'... good outfits flat-out don't recruit from TTTT law schools. and that is confirmed by every statistic out there.

If you don't care about getting a good job by all means jump right in; if you do want a good job, whether in private, public, or PI sectors then it is worth the wait. volunteer for a year in south america or something and learn Spanish or Portuguese.

esquire2014
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Re: URM AAFemale 3.4 T14 chances?

Postby esquire2014 » Thu Sep 23, 2010 9:06 am

gwuorbust wrote:
esquire2014 wrote:
gwuorbust wrote:if you are practice testing at 157 then I'd advise not even taking the test. wait, take it next june, work your score up to preferably a 170+ and then run when you are given a free ride. it literally means the difference between no job prospects and hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt and complete freedom to do whatever you want with your career.


Taking it in june is not a viable option unless absolutely necessary. I would rather not delay going to school and having to find something to do for a year.


plz, describe what prevents you from retaking. we will judge whether it is a worthwhile reason to turn down 150k in schly and $160k a year biglaw salary for a 60k a year doc review job from a TTT where you will accumulate 200k in debt. and if it is simply a matter of not wanting to wait a year be forewarned that if you go to a TTT LS you will almost assuredly not be get getting a good job.

this is not a matter of 'possibly not getting a good job'... good outfits flat-out don't recruit from TTTT law schools. and that is confirmed by every statistic out there.

If you don't care about getting a good job by all means jump right in; if you do want a good job, whether in private, public, or PI sectors then it is worth the wait. volunteer for a year in south america or something and learn Spanish or Portuguese.


It is a matter of not wanting to wait and then try and find something to do for a year.

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paratactical
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Re: URM AAFemale 3.4 T14 chances?

Postby paratactical » Thu Sep 23, 2010 10:42 am

esquire2014 wrote:
It is a matter of not wanting to wait and then try and find something to do for a year.



gwuorbust wrote:If you don't care about getting a good job by all means jump right in; if you do want a good job, whether in private, public, or PI sectors then it is worth the wait. volunteer for a year in south america or something and learn Spanish or Portuguese.


Enjoy shitttlaw and contract document review, then.

esquire2014
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Re: URM AAFemale 3.4 T14 chances?

Postby esquire2014 » Thu Sep 23, 2010 12:48 pm

paratactical wrote:
esquire2014 wrote:
It is a matter of not wanting to wait and then try and find something to do for a year.



gwuorbust wrote:If you don't care about getting a good job by all means jump right in; if you do want a good job, whether in private, public, or PI sectors then it is worth the wait. volunteer for a year in south america or something and learn Spanish or Portuguese.


Enjoy shitttlaw and contract document review, then.


that's a tad harsh.

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gwuorbust
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Re: URM AAFemale 3.4 T14 chances?

Postby gwuorbust » Thu Sep 23, 2010 12:54 pm

esquire2014 wrote:
paratactical wrote:
esquire2014 wrote:
It is a matter of not wanting to wait and then try and find something to do for a year.



gwuorbust wrote:If you don't care about getting a good job by all means jump right in; if you do want a good job, whether in private, public, or PI sectors then it is worth the wait. volunteer for a year in south america or something and learn Spanish or Portuguese.


Enjoy shitttlaw and contract document review, then.


that's a tad harsh.


actually, its not. the legal market is stagnate while thousands of new lawyers enter each year. it is simple supply and demand. if you are going to a bottom tier school you are at the bottom tier of all these lawyers. if employers are only going to hire a select few people why would they select you from a TTT law school? answer: they wouldn't. there are people from georgetown begging for jobs. but if you enjoy fighting traffic tickets go for it.

premadance
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Re: URM AAFemale 3.4 T14 chances?

Postby premadance » Thu Sep 23, 2010 1:16 pm

Posters on this site often come across as harsh, but their intent is to focus on the realities of life after law school in this economy. Those realities can be painfully harsh. I'm a 3L URM (female) at HLS, and my undergrad (an Ivy) gpa and lsat (both north of 3.7 & 170) were the most important factors in getting me into this school....everthing else is insignificant. Don't make the mistake of overestimating the URM boost. It helps, but don't bet the farm on it. If a T-14 is your real goal, take the upcoming lsat test and see how you do. If you bomb it, cancel and retake. If you score as you've been testing, sit out a year and retake in June as others have suggested. If you are determined to apply this cycle be prepared to lower your sight for schools significantly.

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Teoeo
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Re: URM AAFemale 3.4 T14 chances?

Postby Teoeo » Thu Sep 23, 2010 1:21 pm

You have no legit reason not to study for June. Think of this as real money, you will be essentially making a six figure value increase in career prospects from less then a year of studying for the lsat...

CanadianWolf
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Re: URM AAFemale 3.4 T14 chances?

Postby CanadianWolf » Thu Sep 23, 2010 1:28 pm

An LSAT score of 158 places you in the top 25% of all LSAT test takers within the last 3 years & is to be commended. Clearly you are intelligent. As an African-Americam female applicant, your LSAT score will receive a significant boost by most, if not all, law schools. Wait until you receive your actual LSAT score before deciding whether to register for a retake examination.
Assuming a score in the high 150s, consider applying to law schools now & see what the results are. You may be pleasantly surprised or you may be disappointed, but you will certainly receive offers of admission to some strong law schools as listed above in PDaddy's post.
Most of the TLS posters don't realize how gifted they are with respect to standardized testing intelligence & tend to judge others as harshly as they judge themselves.
Although I don't agree with everything in PDaddy's post, I do think that he is offering great advice & information.
I think that you are going to do quite well on test day & should be prepared for a lot of offers to great law schools.
For many, it takes about two months of continuous self study after completing an LSAT prep course to best understand the test therefore consideration of a retest may be solid advice if you want to maximize your LSAT score.
It may help to realize that an LSAT score in the high 150s does not mean that you can't do the work at top law schools, it does suggest, however, that you will have a more difficult time adjusting to the study of law during your first year of law school.

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gwuorbust
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Re: URM AAFemale 3.4 T14 chances?

Postby gwuorbust » Thu Sep 23, 2010 1:40 pm

DO NOT LISTEN TO Pdaddy's post!!!!

You WILL NOT get into gtown, Cornell, Duke, etc with a 158/3.4/AA. That is flat out wrong. look at Lawschoolnumbers and lawschoolpredictor.

Sorry but OP's numbers are just too low for anything but TTT. LSP puts OP at a weak consider at my school, Tulane. A weak consider basically means deny or WL, deny. And I don't advise anyone to come here without at least a 20k/year schly. If OP couldn't get into Tulane then there is no way OP could get into GULC. Again, sorry but sometimes the truth hurts.

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Re: URM AAFemale 3.4 T14 chances?

Postby CanadianWolf » Thu Sep 23, 2010 1:43 pm

I don't think that anyone disagrees with you regarding the advice to attend a top ranked law school with significant financial aid, but it's better to wait for an actual LSAT score & to wait for actual admissions decisions & financial aid/merit offers before preaching doom & gloom.
LSN is a small anonymous sample that offers little in the way of verification. An appropriate question is how much of an LSAT score boost is an AA female given at top law schools. It may be 10 points, it may be less. LSN tries to help in this area but it probably is just too small of a sample to be reliable just as lawschoolpredictor.com is for URMs. There is just not sufficient data on URM admission policies or considerations available to the applicant or to us.
It would be interesting to know of Esquire2014's progress on both the LSAT & admissions decisions.
Last edited by CanadianWolf on Thu Sep 23, 2010 1:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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moopness
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Re: URM AAFemale 3.4 T14 chances?

Postby moopness » Thu Sep 23, 2010 1:46 pm

If a T-14 is your real goal, take the upcoming lsat test and see how you do. If you bomb it, cancel and retake. If you score as you've been testing, sit out a year and retake in June as others have suggested. If you are determined to apply this cycle be prepared to lower your sight for schools significantly.

I would suggest against taking the upcoming LSAT, mainly because you're PTing so low. At 157-159, you won't be the greatest judge of whether or not you should cancel, and may wind up with an equally low score on the real thing. This could hurt you if you decide to apply later on after a retake. I say wait and study for the June or February test. You will have more than enough time to boost your score 10+ points, if you put in the work. Granted, you will have to wait a year, but 1) most people recommend taking a year off before law school anyways (think about it, you won't get a chance to vacation or travel or just relax for a LONG time afterwords) and 2) if you don't travel you can boost your resume with internships or volunteering, raising your chances to get into a T14, and you may enjoy them. Just think about the difference between getting 157 to 160s and going to at best a t20, or getting 170+ and going to one of HCCN. The difference for your career prospects, and future happiness, is HUGE.

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Re: URM AAFemale 3.4 T14 chances?

Postby paratactical » Thu Sep 23, 2010 1:50 pm

gwuorbust wrote:DO NOT LISTEN TO Pdaddy's post!!!!

You WILL NOT get into gtown, Cornell, Duke, etc with a 158/3.4/AA. That is flat out wrong. look at Lawschoolnumbers and lawschoolpredictor.

Sorry but OP's numbers are just too low for anything but TTT. LSP puts OP at a weak consider at my school, Tulane. A weak consider basically means deny or WL, deny. And I don't advise anyone to come here without at least a 20k/year schly. If OP couldn't get into Tulane then there is no way OP could get into GULC. Again, sorry but sometimes the truth hurts.


+1

Also, don't listen to CandianWolf either. These guys are blowing smoke up your ass.

Maybe this is the better way to approach the question of the value of delaying applying:

1) What area do you hope to live and work in after law school?
2) Do you know what kind of work you hope to do?

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Re: URM AAFemale 3.4 T14 chances?

Postby gwuorbust » Thu Sep 23, 2010 1:50 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:I don't think that anyone disagrees with you regarding the advice to attend a top ranked law school with significant financial aid, but it's better to wait for an actual LSAT score & to wait for actual admissions decisions & financial aid/merit offers before preaching doom & gloom.
LSN is a small anonymous sample that offers little in the way of verification.


1. OP is scoring low, hence OP will prob get a low LSAT
2. A low LSAT means OP will be dinged at dream schools
3. OP will not get into a good school
4. Therefore, OP should not take the LSAT until she has maxed out her ability to prepare.

it really is pretty simple.

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moopness
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Re: URM AAFemale 3.4 T14 chances?

Postby moopness » Thu Sep 23, 2010 1:52 pm

5. ???
6. PROFIT!

CanadianWolf
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Re: URM AAFemale 3.4 T14 chances?

Postby CanadianWolf » Thu Sep 23, 2010 2:04 pm

I agree that with a 3.4GPA & a 157 LSAT that the OP is unlikely to get admitted to a Top 14 law school. But the OP hasn't sat for the LSAT yet & many score higher than their practice tests. Also, despite the title of this thread, both PDaddy & I seem to be looking beyond the Top 14 law schools.
Unknown to us is how long the OP has been preparing for the LSAT, her actual LSAT score & what score she needs to get into a Top 14 law school if that is her goal. It certainly does not need to be a 169 or 170. Is a 164 sufficient ? Is any score in the low 160s ?

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Re: URM AAFemale 3.4 T14 chances?

Postby moopness » Thu Sep 23, 2010 2:08 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:I agree that with a 3.4GPA & a 157 LSAT that the OP is unlikely to get admitted to a Top 14 law school. But the OP hasn't sat for the LSAT yet & many score higher than their practice tests. Also, despite the title of this thread, both PDaddy & I seem to be looking beyond the Top 14 law schools.
Unknown to us is how long the OP has been preparing for the LSAT, her actual LSAT score & what score she needs to get into a Top 14 law school if that is her goal. It certainly does not need to be a 169 or 170. Is a 164 sufficient ? Is any score in the low 160s ?


I'm sure that a 164 can get you into a few of the t14, but given that people tend to score lower than their PTs because of the added pressure of, you know, the score actually counting, I think the OP should wait

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Re: URM AAFemale 3.4 T14 chances?

Postby CanadianWolf » Thu Sep 23, 2010 2:34 pm

Many applicants score higher than their practice tests. Why wait if most law schools only consider the highest LSAT score ? There is no guarantee that one, with time & practice, can attain a certain score on the LSAT, even though improvement is likely over time. The applicant's situation may not reasonably afford her the luxury of waiting another year, although we simply don't know one way or another.
As an experienced, older poster, I can comfortably state that URM admissions is not as well defined an area as is non-URM admissions.

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PDaddy
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Re: URM AAFemale 3.4 T14 chances?

Postby PDaddy » Thu Sep 23, 2010 2:38 pm

gwuorbust wrote:DO NOT LISTEN TO Pdaddy's post!!!!

You WILL NOT get into gtown, Cornell, Duke, etc with a 158/3.4/AA. That is flat out wrong. look at Lawschoolnumbers and lawschoolpredictor.

Sorry but OP's numbers are just too low for anything but TTT. LSP puts OP at a weak consider at my school, Tulane. A weak consider basically means deny or WL, deny. And I don't advise anyone to come here without at least a 20k/year schly. If OP couldn't get into Tulane then there is no way OP could get into GULC. Again, sorry but sometimes the truth hurts.



You have no idea what you are talking about, and your RC skills are poor. You are nothing but a jealous white or non-black student who resents the fact that URM's get boosts in admissions. There are so many intangibles...writing ability, LOR's, W.E., community service, major, school, grade trend, etc. We know none of these things about OP.

The major flaw in your reasoning is that you mistake my remarks about what is "possible" for a belief that it is "likely". I have not ever claimed that OP was likely to get in. That said, URM's have gotten into those schools with even worse numbers.

I have a female friend from Atlanta. The first time she applied for law school, she sat for the LSAT cold and got a 145. She didn't know any better and assumed that she was smart enough to walk in and just do it.

She applied for law school that year and got WL'd at Vanderbilt, Cornell and Iowa. So she nearly pulled it off. She's now a Penn grad who entered with a 158. She's at Paul Weiss earning $160K+.

I never said OP was "a lock" for these schools. Indeed, I think we all understand that she would be a weaker candidate from a numbers standpoint. However, a 158 puts her in the top 5% of AA candidates, believe it or not.

Couple that with soft factors and a spolid if not stellar GPA and you have a viable candidate for lower T14. Time and time again, I have seen students with 3.5+/- and scores around 150 get into those schools!

And I said, "OP may" be able to get into those schools, taking all things (including her soft factors) into account.
Mind you, these are soft factors that neither you nor I have examined in-detail. Soft factors are 1/3 of URM applications...not so with white candidates. You have not seen her grade trend, her resume, letters of recommendation, etc. YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT HER PROFILE LOOKS LIKE. I can guarantee you that if she scored a 158, she would get a serious look from the lower T14. I have seen people with worse numbers get into those schools.

You are also wrong in that there are URM's with such grades and scores who have done it.

Your weak RC skills are shown in that you ignore two of my comments:

1) I advised OP that she probably isn't performing at 158 on the real deal. This is a really good assumption.

2) I also advised her that it is increasingly difficult for URM's to get into top schools with sub-160 scores even with high GPA's. I know what I am talking about. Clearly you know nothing about URM admissions except for what you continue to "hear" or read.

Tulane has accepted URM's with scores of 155 and GPA's of 3.0, and they repeatedly do it, as do other top schools. How do I know? Two friends got in to school there. Tulane is probably one of the most holistic schools in the country when it comes to evaluations. They do not game rankings when it comes to accepting candidates.

My advice to OP was to either take and/or retake. To advise OP to dismiss my advice out-of-hand was just plain stupid.

The magic number is still 160 for URM's. They either need to pass it or get near it. If the GPA is lower, soft factors can make up for it. If the URM applicant is at, 3.7/158 for example, they have a shot at pretty much any T14 except YS. With a 3.4 they need more help from softs, but it's still doable, especially when we are talking lower T14.
Last edited by PDaddy on Thu Sep 23, 2010 3:10 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: URM AAFemale 3.4 T14 chances?

Postby paratactical » Thu Sep 23, 2010 2:41 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:A rare few applicants score higher than their practice tests. However, most score around 3 points lower than their practice, with some applicants also scoring drastically lower than their LSAT.


FTFY

Why do you give people incorrect information in the guise of being nice and helpful? The things you tell people are wrong.

Also, OP, if you want to take PDaddy's advice because it does sound nicer to hear, remember that he actually believes this shit:

PDaddy wrote:Those no ass havin', no-lipped, hawk-nosed, sunburned, buttermilk in the mornin' smellin' (and they smell just like buttermilk in the morning), pale-faced scrubs will never touch black men in the beauty department. They typically can't dance, they're nasty (in more ways than one), and they are cowardly.




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