Top Law Schools

-3.45 GPA. (if it matters, what brought down the GPA were upper division math classes and not communications 101 or whatever)
-LSAT 175 (actually haven't taken yet, but my range in practice tests is 173-178, so perhaps 175 is a good estimate)
-Regional state school for undergrad
-Very strong letters
-Good resume (academic scholarships, did some research with a professor, employed in college, currently in Teach for America)
-Assume a good personal statement


What sorts of schools should I be applying to? If anyone is willing to get into detail, what I would most like to see is something like:

1-2 schools in the category of "reach, but worth applying to"
1-2 schools in the "have a good shot" category
1-2 schools in the "near sure bet" category. In particular, what might be the highest ranked schools at which I'm a near sure bet?

Right now I'm thinking of applying to:
Yale, Harvard (mainly to confirm my suspicion that I haven't a chance at those schools so that I'm not left wondering)
Columbia
Chicago
Berkeley
Michigan
Northwestern
Texas
Emory
UC-Davis
WUSTL
Ohio St
Washington-Seattle
Colorado
Pitt
San Diego

I know that seems like a lot of schools, but several of them have fee waivers for TFA folks so it shouldn't be too much of a cash drain.

I really appreciate any information. Thanks!

ccn- reach, mostly because of your gpa
mvp- you'd probably have a good shot at if you do the supplemental essays
lower end of the t14 - near sure bet
20-30 range in

someone will probably disagree with this.

edit: probably out at berk. No point in applying to pitt unless you are fishing for cash or actually want the market.

dihydrogenmonoxide wrote:-3.45 GPA. (if it matters, what brought down the GPA were upper division math classes and not communications 101 or whatever)
-LSAT 175 (actually haven't taken yet, but my range in practice tests is 173-178, so perhaps 175 is a good estimate)
-Regional state school for undergrad
-Very strong letters
-Good resume (academic scholarships, did some research with a professor, employed in college, currently in Teach for America)
-Assume a good personal statement


What sorts of schools should I be applying to? If anyone is willing to get into detail, what I would most like to see is something like:

1-2 schools in the category of "reach, but worth applying to"
1-2 schools in the "have a good shot" category
1-2 schools in the "near sure bet" category. In particular, what might be the highest ranked schools at which I'm a near sure bet?

Right now I'm thinking of applying to:
Yale, Harvard (mainly to confirm my suspicion that I haven't a chance at those schools so that I'm not left wondering)
Columbia
Chicago
Berkeley
Michigan
Northwestern
Texas
Emory
UC-Davis
WUSTL
Ohio St
Washington-Seattle
Colorado
Pitt
San Diego

I know that seems like a lot of schools, but several of them have fee waivers for TFA folks so it shouldn't be too much of a cash drain.

I really appreciate any information. Thanks!

1. Doesn't matter what brought down your GPA. You are making the poor assumption that a school is concerned about the level of their students and not their reported GPA. Your undergrad may as well be in good ol' underwater basket weaving. You have a 3.45.

2. And you don't have a 175. I'd be in a totally different school if I got my general average on the LSAT. Guess what? It's different when you are actually in there, and not chilling out in some quiet room on your own. With that practice score... don't be surprised if you barely crack (if even touch) the 170's.

Honestly, with a 3.45, I'm not sure that anything other than high 170's will get you into the top 10 without URM status.

Spoonmanners wrote:1. Doesn't matter what brought down your GPA. You are making the poor assumption that a school is concerned about the level of their students and not their reported GPA. Your undergrad may as well be in good ol' underwater basket weaving. You have a 3.45.

I didn't make any assumption at all, so this confuses me. I said if it matters. I'm perfectly aware that most people think that schools only care about their USNews ranking, and I'm happy to agree with that conventional wisdom. But since perhaps a few people out there think that rigor of classes matters, and since supplying more information about myself probably won't hurt the quality of the predictions ya'll make (after all, if you don't think it matters you won't consider it in making your prediction), I included that information.

Spoonmanners wrote:2. And you don't have a 175. I'd be in a totally different school if I got my general average on the LSAT. Guess what? It's different when you are actually in there, and not chilling out in some quiet room on your own. With that practice score... don't be surprised if you barely crack (if even touch) the 170's.

Yeah, I'm somewhat worried about this but its at least a baseline for giving me an idea of what might be possible if I do as well as I might be capable of doing. Do you think it makes any difference that I am not generally prone to test anxiety, and that when I take practice tests I don't use my extra time to check answers but just move right along? I'm not asserting that these things matter, just wondering if in your experience they mattered at all.

Spoonmanners wrote:Honestly, with a 3.45, I'm not sure that anything other than high 170's will get you into the top 10 without URM status.

[/quote]

That is basically what I figured... I'll still apply to some since I might as well if I can get a fee waiver. Luckily my career aspirations don't depend on my being in a top-10.

Thanks for your thoughts!

ED Columbia

dihydrogenmonoxide wrote:

Spoonmanners wrote:1. Doesn't matter what brought down your GPA. You are making the poor assumption that a school is concerned about the level of their students and not their reported GPA. Your undergrad may as well be in good ol' underwater basket weaving. You have a 3.45.

I didn't make any assumption at all, so this confuses me. I said if it matters. I'm perfectly aware that most people think that schools only care about their USNews ranking, and I'm happy to agree with that conventional wisdom. But since perhaps a few people out there think that rigor of classes matters, and since supplying more information about myself probably won't hurt the quality of the predictions ya'll make (after all, if you don't think it matters you won't consider it in making your prediction), I included that information.

Spoonmanners wrote:2. And you don't have a 175. I'd be in a totally different school if I got my general average on the LSAT. Guess what? It's different when you are actually in there, and not chilling out in some quiet room on your own. With that practice score... don't be surprised if you barely crack (if even touch) the 170's.

Yeah, I'm somewhat worried about this but its at least a baseline for giving me an idea of what might be possible if I do as well as I might be capable of doing. Do you think it makes any difference that I am not generally prone to test anxiety, and that when I take practice tests I don't use my extra time to check answers but just move right along? I'm not asserting that these things matter, just wondering if in your experience they mattered at all.

Spoonmanners wrote:Honestly, with a 3.45, I'm not sure that anything other than high 170's will get you into the top 10 without URM status.

That is basically what I figured... I'll still apply to some since I might as well if I can get a fee waiver. Luckily my career aspirations don't depend on my being in a top-10.

Thanks for your thoughts![/quote]

Apologies. Just trying to be helpful.

Schools only care about their numbers, except for their limited number of URM and other such minority acquirements. Look at the stats, and notice that only half the school is counted. Most 1L classes are only ~200 people. So every person is probably about part of a percentile. So they aren't going to take you "just because you are special" to compromise their numbers down a few percentile.

No one thinks that the rigors of class matter more than their job. You can drop out 2 weeks into first semester and it doesn't matter according to their numbers. It just means they can allow more transfer students at full cost. My undergrad rigors didn't mean jack shit to either admissions or performance, as much as you want to believe they do.

I'm not prone to test anxiety either. I had never had once in my life. But with the amount I had studied for the LSAT, and never studied for a damn other thing in my life, it effected my answers. I had over a month where I finished my logic games with 100% accuracy with time to spare. Be prepared for some anxiety and a curve ball. It's how things work.

Edit: always important question: what year LSAT's are you scoring high 170's on? My most recent score was mid to high 170's before I took the LSAT's, but things changed. While I strived for the best, I didn't have some belief that I would score exactly or better than what I was putting out in my controlled practice.

Spoonmanners wrote:
1. Doesn't matter what brought down your GPA. You are making the poor assumption that a school is concerned about the level of their students and not their reported GPA. Your undergrad may as well be in good ol' underwater basket weaving. You have a 3.45.

2. And you don't have a 175. I'd be in a totally different school if I got my general average on the LSAT. Guess what? It's different when you are actually in there, and not chilling out in some quiet room on your own. With that practice score... don't be surprised if you barely crack (if even touch) the 170's.

Honestly, with a 3.45, I'm not sure that anything other than high 170's will get you into the top 10 without URM status.

Credited

Op's best shot at the top-10 is Northwestern.

Northwestern isn't top 10.

And OP, if you're reasonably confident you're not prone to test-anxiety, I personally don't think you're crazy to assume a test at the low-mid part of your typical practice range. That proved true for me even though I left the test feeling less than stellar (i.e. I did experience a few "curve balls").

Lieut Kaffee wrote:Northwestern isn't top 10.

And OP, if you're reasonably confident you're not prone to test-anxiety, I personally don't think you're crazy to assume a test at the low-mid part of your typical practice range. That proved true for me.

Don't assume anything really, fuck ups happen.

1) Take LSAT
2) Make a new post with actual score
3) ???
4) Profit

rad law wrote:1) Take LSAT
2) Make a new post with actual score
3) ???
4) Profit

Depending on 1), 4) may not happen.

bk187 wrote:

rad law wrote:1) Take LSAT
2) Make a new post with actual score
3) ???
4) Profit

Depending on 1), 4) may not happen.

Immensely credited.

bk187 wrote:

Lieut Kaffee wrote:Northwestern isn't top 10.

And OP, if you're reasonably confident you're not prone to test-anxiety, I personally don't think you're crazy to assume a test at the low-mid part of your typical practice range. That proved true for me.

Don't assume anything really, fuck ups happen.

I think the level of harm from assuming depends on what he uses the assumption for. For the purposes of making a post on a website in a preliminary effort to gauge his chances and identify some target schools? I think he's in the clear.

Lieut Kaffee wrote:I think the level of harm from assuming depends on what he uses the assumption for. For the purposes of making a post on a website in a preliminary effort to gauge his chances and identify some target schools? I think he's in the clear.

I guess this is fair enough considering he can fill out applications now.

moopness wrote:ED Columbia

titcr, if in fact you end up with a 175 (murky)

Lieut Kaffee wrote:Northwestern isn't top 10.

And OP, if you're reasonably confident you're not prone to test-anxiety, I personally don't think you're crazy to assume a test at the low-mid part of your typical practice range. That proved true for me even though I left the test feeling less than stellar (i.e. I did experience a few "curve balls").

Northwestern is a consensus top-10 school...there are about 12 schools in this category. Of the USNWR T14, the only schools that are not considered top-10 are GULC and Cornell. Besides, UVA was actually tied for #9 in USNWR just last year, if that's the standard. But I don't know why people consider USNWR the holy grail of law rankings. Outside of Lawdragon and (gulp) Cooley, USNWR employs the most ridiculous methodology of all of the rankings, and their "reputational scores" (which account for like half of a school's ranking) cannot be trusted because the sample size is too small.

NU is a top-10 school.

But I was actually going to recant my earlier suggestion say that NU (25% of index) might not be his best shot because, outside of Berkeley (37% of index), NU actually emphasizes grades more than any top school...next would be W & M (24% of index). If OP has significant W.E., then he should go for NU.

PDaddy wrote:

Lieut Kaffee wrote:Northwestern isn't top 10.

And OP, if you're reasonably confident you're not prone to test-anxiety, I personally don't think you're crazy to assume a test at the low-mid part of your typical practice range. That proved true for me even though I left the test feeling less than stellar (i.e. I did experience a few "curve balls").

Northwestern is a consensus top-10 school...there are about 12 schools in this category. Of the USNWR T14, the only schools that are not considered top-10 are GULC and Cornell. Besides, UVA was actually tied for #9 in USNWR just last year. I don't know why people consider USNWR the holy grail of law rankings. Outside of Lawdragon and (gulp) Cooley, they employ the most ridiculous methodology of all of the rankings, and their "reputational scores" (which account for like half of a school's ranking) cannot be trusted because the sample size is too small.

NU is a top-10 school.

But I was actually going to recant my earlier suggestion say that NU (25% of index) might not be his best shot because, outside of Berkeley (37% of index), NU actually emphasizes grades more than any top school...next would be W & M (24% of index). If OP has significant W.E., then he should go for NU.

fwiw I go to NU, and I also wholeheartedly agree with your assessment of the methodological problems associated with the reputation scores in USNWR.

To rebut your recant I would add that while NU's index may place a relatively high emphasis on GPA, they seem anecdotally to be by far the most splitter-friendly of all comparably ranked schools. I think your intuition was correct that 3.45/175 would be a mortal lock at NU and a bit more uncertain at Virginia, Duke, and Michigan.

PDaddy wrote:outside of Berkeley (37% of index), NU actually emphasizes grades more than any top school

Are you on crack?

Edit: Maybe by index score but why would you go by that rather than something more useful like LSN?

IF you get a 175 (and that's a big if), ED at your favorite CCN.
You should have a shot at lower half of t14 - write the Why X essays and any additionals you can.

Your best bet is probably MVP. Chance at CCN (you will need 175+ though for Columbia). You're in pretty good shape for NU if you took a year or two off between undergrad at have any WE. You should be a lock at WUSTL (with money). I would only bother with schools in the 20-30 range if there is a school in the region you know you want to be and you're looking for a full ride. You should land somewhere in the T14 unless something goes very wrong.

If you have a good application and manage to actually hit 175+ (Big if), I can't imagine all of CCNMVP dinging you. I imagine you get 1-2 acceptances, a ding, and about 3 waitlists out of them.

Spoonmanners wrote:

dihydrogenmonoxide wrote:-3.45 GPA. (if it matters, what brought down the GPA were upper division math classes and not communications 101 or whatever)
-LSAT 175 (actually haven't taken yet, but my range in practice tests is 173-178, so perhaps 175 is a good estimate)
-Regional state school for undergrad
-Very strong letters
-Good resume (academic scholarships, did some research with a professor, employed in college, currently in Teach for America)
-Assume a good personal statement


What sorts of schools should I be applying to? If anyone is willing to get into detail, what I would most like to see is something like:

1-2 schools in the category of "reach, but worth applying to"
1-2 schools in the "have a good shot" category
1-2 schools in the "near sure bet" category. In particular, what might be the highest ranked schools at which I'm a near sure bet?

Right now I'm thinking of applying to:
Yale, Harvard (mainly to confirm my suspicion that I haven't a chance at those schools so that I'm not left wondering)
Columbia
Chicago
Berkeley
Michigan
Northwestern
Texas
Emory
UC-Davis
WUSTL
Ohio St
Washington-Seattle
Colorado
Pitt
San Diego

I know that seems like a lot of schools, but several of them have fee waivers for TFA folks so it shouldn't be too much of a cash drain.

I really appreciate any information. Thanks!

1. Doesn't matter what brought down your GPA. You are making the poor assumption that a school is concerned about the level of their students and not their reported GPA. Your undergrad may as well be in good ol' underwater basket weaving. You have a 3.45.

2. And you don't have a 175. I'd be in a totally different school if I got my general average on the LSAT. Guess what? It's different when you are actually in there, and not chilling out in some quiet room on your own. With that practice score... don't be surprised if you barely crack (if even touch) the 170's.

Honestly, with a 3.45, I'm not sure that anything other than high 170's will get you into the top 10 without URM status.

1. Disagree, it matter's a lot. 3.45 in a hard major vs. 3.45 in bullshit is a big deal.

2. I agree, it is extremely difficult to actually get 175 even you are PTing in that range. Even though, of course, it is more likely you will score in your PT range than out of it.

2014 wrote:If you have a good application and manage to actually hit 175+ (Big if), I can't imagine all of CCNMVP dinging you. I imagine you get 1-2 acceptances, a ding, and about 3 waitlists out of them.

I dunno, I'd think a 175+ gets you into all of MVP, and gives you at least a split chance at CCN. I say 4 accepts and 1 waitlist and a ding is more probable

moopness wrote:

2014 wrote:If you have a good application and manage to actually hit 175+ (Big if), I can't imagine all of CCNMVP dinging you. I imagine you get 1-2 acceptances, a ding, and about 3 waitlists out of them.

I dunno, I'd think a 175+ gets you into all of MVP, and gives you at least a split chance at CCN. I say 4 accepts and 1 waitlist and a ding is more probable

You are probably correct, I just always try to error on the side of caution.
Hopefully with a good LSAT I'll be pretty much number twins with the OP, so I would LOVE to get 4 accepts out of CCNMVP

1) It's not hard to get a 175, if you are pting in that range if you aren't a choker, and are doing PT's under realistic conditions.

You shouldn't assume, but for purposes of researching schools, if you've taken many PT's you can use the average, but I'd probably consider your entire range.

2) There is no such thing as Top 10, also Michigan is a TTT in decline

3) MVP are target schools for the OP. 3.45 is not too low for those schools. Even with a 172 they'd be his targets.

4) NU is a sure thing with a 172+

5) If you get a 170+ you can ED to UVA and get in

6) CCN is definitely in play, but your exact LSAT matters

7) Don't decide where to ED, until you get your school. If you even want to, you probably shouldn't. YOu might get cash at a lower school.