My friends say I'm crazy but I'm right aren't I?

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Upton Sinclair
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My friends say I'm crazy but I'm right aren't I?

Postby Upton Sinclair » Tue Aug 24, 2010 6:50 pm

I have posted a similar topic before, but it is very close to decision time (probably past it) and I need to decide, like now.

I have just below a 3.4, and a 170 LSAT. Due to quite a few things that have happened recently, I am now really in T14-or-Bust Mode. My strategy is to ED to Northwestern, and if I fail, ED to Virginia via their late ED policy. I will have 19 months of pretty basic (read: monkey work) work experience at matriculation.

I fear that I am going to be shut out of the T14/15 -I throw UCLA in there as well for various reasons- with these numbers. I am contemplating a retake in October. After studying the Logic Games Bible and nothing else, I scored a 170 on my first PT this past summer. I really didn't do much else aside from taking PTs. I scored a 170 on test day in June.

My friends think I should stick with this score, and that it's a huge risk to retake, knowing I could score lower. My thinking is that I am out of the T14 anyway, so I might as well try to tack on 2-3 points (even 1 point could help), and even if I suck on test day, I can always cancel (not sure if this would hurt me or not? I'm sure it wouldn't be great, but I don't think it would matter much). My friends, bless their hearts, don't know dick about the application process. You all do. Should I suck it up, study hard for a month plus, and try to bust out a 172 or better?

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mfeller2
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Re: My friends say I'm crazy but I'm right aren't I?

Postby mfeller2 » Tue Aug 24, 2010 6:53 pm

(most) Law schools don't average scores. A several point increase will help your chances by quite a bit, if you think you can do it. Don't really see a downside here, except EDing.

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bk1
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Re: My friends say I'm crazy but I'm right aren't I?

Postby bk1 » Tue Aug 24, 2010 6:55 pm

If you can push yourself above their 50th and/or 75th percentiles, that will make a large difference as pretty much all schools you have a shot at do not average.

A warning though, NU expressly forbids you from ED'ing to another school even if you are rejected by their ED (or ED'ing to their school even if you have already been rejected by another school's ED). Will they follow up on this for someone they have rejected? I do not know, but I do not think it is worth taking the risk.

EDIT: If I were you I would choose whether I wanted to do a single ED to NU or a double-dip to UVa then UMich (Michigan seems like the most likely to take somebody with a 3.0-3.5/170 out of MVP), though you could try somewhere else other than UMich for your second shot of course.

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Upton Sinclair
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Re: My friends say I'm crazy but I'm right aren't I?

Postby Upton Sinclair » Tue Aug 24, 2010 7:00 pm

bk1 wrote:If you can push yourself above their 50th and/or 75th percentiles, that will make a large difference as pretty much all schools you have a shot at do not average.

A warning though, NU expressly forbids you from ED'ing to another school even if you are rejected by their ED (or ED'ing to their school even if you have already been rejected by another school's ED). Will they follow up on this for someone they have rejected? I do not know, but I do not think it is worth taking the risk.


I did not know that; thanks for the info. I know that most of these schools don't average, but I feel like scoring lower the second time will not look good for someone that is borderline at best already. Does anyone think I have a "good" chance at these schools as I stand now?

Kafka
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Re: My friends say I'm crazy but I'm right aren't I?

Postby Kafka » Tue Aug 24, 2010 7:01 pm

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Last edited by Kafka on Sat Jul 28, 2012 3:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Upton Sinclair
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Re: My friends say I'm crazy but I'm right aren't I?

Postby Upton Sinclair » Tue Aug 24, 2010 7:04 pm

Thanks for the add to your post. I was under the impression that I would have a better shot at NU than UM with my work experience (plus I really prefer Chicago), even though the WE is basic. I originally planned on a UM ED, since they seem to be very splitter friendly.

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nematoad
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Re: My friends say I'm crazy but I'm right aren't I?

Postby nematoad » Tue Aug 24, 2010 7:07 pm

Upton Sinclair wrote:Thanks for the add to your post. I was under the impression that I would have a better shot at NU than UM with my work experience (plus I really prefer Chicago), even though the WE is basic. I originally planned on a UM ED, since they seem to be very splitter friendly.


Do you really wanna live in Ann Arbor? NU all the way

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joemoviebuff
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Re: My friends say I'm crazy but I'm right aren't I?

Postby joemoviebuff » Tue Aug 24, 2010 7:09 pm

I had a 3.4 and 170, ED'd to Virginia in mid-January, and got in. I had alright work experience and letters of rec from people who I knew would do a great job, plus a decent PS.

If you think you can do better on the LSAT, by all means go for it, and just because I got in in January doesn't mean you'll get it in in September, but I don't hate your chances if you applied next month.

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Upton Sinclair
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Re: My friends say I'm crazy but I'm right aren't I?

Postby Upton Sinclair » Tue Aug 24, 2010 7:10 pm

Kafka wrote:Unless you get a 175+, I think you are still looking at the same list of schools you are looking at now bro: Virginia, Northwestern, Georgetown, Cornell. The GPA is holding you back. With a 3.7~3.8 and, say, 172 or 173, you could be looking at other schools beyond that list.

I think a retake for a higher score (172~174) will solidify your chances at those schools I mentioned, but I am not sure if you can increase your score that much in just one month. I think once you get into the 170 territory, it's difficult to move up.

Do it if you are confident, but I would just ED Virginia or NU really early this cycle.


Thanks for your input. I'm perfectly fine with that list of schools: GTown, Northwestern, Virginia, Michigan. I would be happy to go to any of the bottom of the T14. I just don't want to get shut out. As it stands right now, I don't know if I would be happy anywhere outside the T14, especially since my chances for a big scholarship are virtually nonexistent with my GPA.

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bk1
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Re: My friends say I'm crazy but I'm right aren't I?

Postby bk1 » Tue Aug 24, 2010 7:11 pm

Take a look at LSN: http://lawschoolnumbers.com/

For 3.0-3.5/170

NU: Roughly 50/50 WL's and acceptances, no rejects.
UM: Same as NU.
UVa: Mostly WL's and rejects, a few acceptances.


If I were you I would ED to NU or UM, whichever you prefer. I feel like your UVa chances aren't that great (though they would be better if you are a VA resident).

Kafka
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Re: My friends say I'm crazy but I'm right aren't I?

Postby Kafka » Tue Aug 24, 2010 7:11 pm

Upton Sinclair wrote:Thanks for the add to your post. I was under the impression that I would have a better shot at NU than UM with my work experience (plus I really prefer Chicago), even though the WE is basic. I originally planned on a UM ED, since they seem to be very splitter friendly.


Looking at LSN, I don't really think Michigan is that splitter friendly. Certainly not as friendly as Virginia or Georgetown. Last year, the lowest GPA that got into Michigan with a 170 LSAT was a 3.38, but that dude graduated from an Ivy and had three years work experience as a journalist.

http://lawschoolnumbers.com/FavreInt

Another guy has basically identical stats as you (also with work experience) and was waitlisted at Michigan

http://lawschoolnumbers.com/jj55

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Upton Sinclair
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Re: My friends say I'm crazy but I'm right aren't I?

Postby Upton Sinclair » Tue Aug 24, 2010 7:12 pm

nematoad wrote:
Upton Sinclair wrote:Thanks for the add to your post. I was under the impression that I would have a better shot at NU than UM with my work experience (plus I really prefer Chicago), even though the WE is basic. I originally planned on a UM ED, since they seem to be very splitter friendly.


Do you really wanna live in Ann Arbor? NU all the way


Ha, I'll take this in two parts:

1) Of course I would rather be in Chicago than Ann Arbor.

2) My family and friends will practically disown me if I go to Michigan (I'll let you draw your own conclusions from that).

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bk1
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Re: My friends say I'm crazy but I'm right aren't I?

Postby bk1 » Tue Aug 24, 2010 7:13 pm

Kafka wrote:Looking at LSN, I don't really think Michigan is that splitter friendly. Certainly not as friendly as Virginia or Georgetown. Last year, the lowest GPA that got into Michigan with a 170 LSAT was a 3.38, but that dude graduated from an Ivy and had three years work experience as a journalist.

http://lawschoolnumbers.com/FavreInt

Another guy has basically identical stats as you (also with work experience) and was waitlisted at Michigan

http://lawschoolnumbers.com/jj55


Huh? http://michigan.lawschoolnumbers.com/stats

I see 170 acceptances with 3.08, 3.18, 3.3, none of which are URM.

Kafka
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Re: My friends say I'm crazy but I'm right aren't I?

Postby Kafka » Tue Aug 24, 2010 7:14 pm

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Last edited by Kafka on Sat Jul 28, 2012 3:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Upton Sinclair
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Re: My friends say I'm crazy but I'm right aren't I?

Postby Upton Sinclair » Tue Aug 24, 2010 7:19 pm

Kafka wrote:Okay, so I missed 3 applicants.

But look at UVA ED from last year and past years

http://uva.lawschoolnumbers.com/applica ... =3&type=jd

Tons of people accepted with similar stats to OP. If you want T14 with your current stats you have a better shot at UVA than Michigan.


I guess the better question is do I have a better shot at NU ED or UM + UVA ED?

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jayn3
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Re: My friends say I'm crazy but I'm right aren't I?

Postby jayn3 » Tue Aug 24, 2010 7:19 pm

To be honest, with your numbers I would just blanket the T5-20. The 170 will most likely get you fee waivers to a number of the lower ranked schools, and maybe even some $$...which could be used for leverage at a school you'd prefer to attend. Apply early in the cycle, make your PS very convincing (peer edits and career services are useful here), and I would be surprised if you didn't hit some of the T14.

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bk1
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Re: My friends say I'm crazy but I'm right aren't I?

Postby bk1 » Tue Aug 24, 2010 7:21 pm

Kafka wrote:Okay, so I missed 3 applicants.

But look at UVA ED from last year and past years

http://uva.lawschoolnumbers.com/applica ... =3&type=jd

Tons of people accepted with similar stats to OP. If you want T14 with your current stats you have a better shot at UVA than Michigan.

Edit to say: the 3.18 that got into Michigan was Top 20 undergrad engineering double major with a masters degree (GPA 3.98) and with 3-4 years of post-grad work experience. I wouldn't look at that to give the OP much hope.


Not really tons. I counted 5-6 people with under a 3.5 and 170 LSAT that got in, but the number of rejections and WL's was higher. The percentage of acceptance for 3.0-3.5/170 was 50% for UM, it was closer to 30% for UVa (ballparking here, but you get the point).

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bk1
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Re: My friends say I'm crazy but I'm right aren't I?

Postby bk1 » Tue Aug 24, 2010 7:22 pm

jayn3 wrote:To be honest, with your numbers I would just blanket the T5-20. The 170 will most likely get you fee waivers to a number of the lower ranked schools, and maybe even some $$...which could be used for leverage at a school you'd prefer to attend. Apply early in the cycle, make your PS very convincing (peer edits and career services are useful here), and I would be surprised if you didn't hit some of the T14.


+1 But still throw out an ED.

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Upton Sinclair
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Re: My friends say I'm crazy but I'm right aren't I?

Postby Upton Sinclair » Tue Aug 24, 2010 7:22 pm

jayn3 wrote:To be honest, with your numbers I would just blanket the T5-20. The 170 will most likely get you fee waivers to a number of the lower ranked schools, and maybe even some $$...which could be used for leverage at a school you'd prefer to attend. Apply early in the cycle, make your PS very convincing (peer edits and career services are useful here), and I would be surprised if you didn't hit some of the T14.


So you think it would be better to apply in September, as opposed to chance a retake in October and apply a tad later?

Also, if I did retake and hit a 172, I would be in RD at one of the lower t14 right?

Edited to say thank you to everyone for your help so far.

Kafka
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Re: My friends say I'm crazy but I'm right aren't I?

Postby Kafka » Tue Aug 24, 2010 7:24 pm

Upton Sinclair wrote:
Kafka wrote:Okay, so I missed 3 applicants.

But look at UVA ED from last year and past years

http://uva.lawschoolnumbers.com/applica ... =3&type=jd

Tons of people accepted with similar stats to OP. If you want T14 with your current stats you have a better shot at UVA than Michigan.


I guess the better question is do I have a better shot at NU ED or UM + UVA ED?


It really depends on what you want. Your chances are best at UVA ED or NU ED, IMO. If you prefer to live/work in Chicago, then the answer is obvious. I think you should do UVA ED then NU ED if you get rejected at UVA.

NU has some weird ED policy and I am not sure what the restrictions are and stuff, so maybe someone else can give you more info on that.

Edit to say: UVA ED->Michigan ED can also work if you prefer Michigan to NU.

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bk1
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Re: My friends say I'm crazy but I'm right aren't I?

Postby bk1 » Tue Aug 24, 2010 7:27 pm

Since you seem to prefer NU, and I don't think your chances at UVa are that great, I would say NU ED all the way.

I think applying in October is fine, just make sure you go complete right when you get your October score.

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jayn3
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Re: My friends say I'm crazy but I'm right aren't I?

Postby jayn3 » Tue Aug 24, 2010 7:28 pm

Upton Sinclair wrote:
jayn3 wrote:To be honest, with your numbers I would just blanket the T5-20. The 170 will most likely get you fee waivers to a number of the lower ranked schools, and maybe even some $$...which could be used for leverage at a school you'd prefer to attend. Apply early in the cycle, make your PS very convincing (peer edits and career services are useful here), and I would be surprised if you didn't hit some of the T14.


So you think it would be better to apply in September, as opposed to chance a retake in October and apply a tad later?

Also, if I did retake and hit a 172, I would be in RD at one of the lower t14 right?

Edited to say thank you to everyone for your help so far.

Well, I'm by no means an authoritative source, but I would imagine a two-point increase wouldn't be worth sacrificing the extra month. A 5-point increase might, but unless you're PTing close to 180 I wouldn't expect this.

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beachbum
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Re: My friends say I'm crazy but I'm right aren't I?

Postby beachbum » Tue Aug 24, 2010 7:29 pm

First of all, hey numbers-twin! Second of all, I don't think your ED chances are as bleak as you seem to think they are (though I could be a little biased...). Northwestern loves the work experience and the 170+ scores- you'll probably get in with an ED. UVa has also been very accommodating to ED applicants with 3.0+ 170+ numbers; I'd say you stand a fighting chance there as well. (I'm not overly familiar with Michigan, so I'll let someone else comment on that one).

In any case, good luck. I'm right there with you (sans work experience).

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Re: My friends say I'm crazy but I'm right aren't I?

Postby Kafka » Tue Aug 24, 2010 7:29 pm

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Last edited by Kafka on Sat Jul 28, 2012 3:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Upton Sinclair
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Re: My friends say I'm crazy but I'm right aren't I?

Postby Upton Sinclair » Tue Aug 24, 2010 7:31 pm

bk1 wrote:Since you seem to prefer NU, and I don't think your chances at UVa are that great, I would say NU ED all the way.

I think applying in October is fine, just make sure you go complete right when you get your October score.


In order of preference:

1) T14 (not Cornell)
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2) Chicago/NU over Ann Arbor/UM

It just seems two EDs are better than one?




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