179 LSAT/2nd Class Upper Honours

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anli
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Re: 179 LSAT/2nd Class Upper Honours

Postby anli » Mon Aug 09, 2010 7:36 pm

Your arguments are certainly fair, and I did not intend to direct my comments towards any one poster. I am drawing on anecdotal evidence and certainly do not presume to speak for any admissions officer.

Let me try to rephrase. My arguments are follows:

1) Among foreign-educated applicants, there is a higher risk of language-related difficulty in law school. This applies both on a direct lingual level and with respect to cultural premises that lurk within judicial opinions. I do not argue that this is a prevalent difficulty among those who are applying to American law schools; nonetheless, it is a nontrivial worry that American-educated applicants do not face. I have seen this come up a few times among my peers here at the law school.

2) Among foreign-educated applicants, there is a lower chance of employment within the American legal system. The difficulties here are numerous. First, foreign-educated applicants who are not U.S. citizens are generally ineligible for federal employment. Second, they may require immigration visas and not all firms are willing or able to assist. Third, they may simply not intend to stay in the U.S., for personal or professional reasons.

3) As a corollary to (2), I would argue the following two propositions. First, law schools may be more reluctant to take on law students who are less likely to secure legal employment. To put it simply, such students may not be able to pay their debts (and lower the employment figures on the brochures). Second, American law schools may take their role as gatekeepers to the American legal system seriously. While I am sure CLS would be happy to enroll the next Bill Gates, I doubt that they can readily predict such unusual success outside of the non-legal profession. On the whole, I think, American law schools would like to enroll students who they believe will make use of their legal education.

The last thing I would say is that all of these arguments apply only to foreign applicants in general, and the premises may not apply in individual cases. I have little doubt that an admissions officer would give full and equal consideration to an individual who clearly is familiar with the English language and American law, and wants to make some use of that education. I argue simply that ex-ante, a foreign applicant may need to explain why they want to be here, and that they are capable of handling the different work of an American professional school, to a degree that a domestic applicant would not. If someone raised and educated in the Mongolian school system applied to your law school, wouldn't you want more than a LSAT score and a GPA?

*EDIT*: a final caveat. By no means am I arguing what American law schools should do. I am merely proposing a line of reasoning to which an admissions officer might subscribe.

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SentinelsOfEvil
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Re: 179 LSAT/2nd Class Upper Honours

Postby SentinelsOfEvil » Mon Aug 09, 2010 8:18 pm

dresden doll wrote:It's pretty impressive how full of fail the majority of the responses are.

1) LSAC will translate whatever GPA you received at a foreign institution into an American equivalent law schools can work with. It's the regular practice when it comes to applicants from other countries.

2) You do not need to dwell on your desire to attend law school any more than the average applicant. Law schools will have you if your numbers help their medians regardless of your reasons for wanting to study in the United States.

3) How does it not occur to anyone that percentage of foreign students across the board is low because not many foreigners apply to attend US law schools to begin with?

4) Asssuming median-boosting numbers, you will qualify for merit based scholarships. You will not qualify for government loans or need based money at state schools, however.

5) You will not receive a URM boost. You will be neither disadvantaged nor advantaged by your international background and your cycle will be numbers-based, just like everyone else's.

In translation, assuming LSAC translates your transcript into a solid GPA in American terms, you have excellent shot at both admission and scholarships at T6 schools. Hth.


Thanks for the info.

anli wrote:1) Among foreign-educated applicants, there is a higher risk of language-related difficulty in law school. This applies both on a direct lingual level and with respect to cultural premises that lurk within judicial opinions. I do not argue that this is a prevalent difficulty among those who are applying to American law schools; nonetheless, it is a nontrivial worry that American-educated applicants do not face. I have seen this come up a few times among my peers here at the law school.

2) Among foreign-educated applicants, there is a lower chance of employment within the American legal system. The difficulties here are numerous. First, foreign-educated applicants who are not U.S. citizens are generally ineligible for federal employment. Second, they may require immigration visas and not all firms are willing or able to assist. Third, they may simply not intend to stay in the U.S., for personal or professional reasons.

3) As a corollary to (2), I would argue the following two propositions. First, law schools may be more reluctant to take on law students who are less likely to secure legal employment. To put it simply, such students may not be able to pay their debts (and lower the employment figures on the brochures). Second, American law schools may take their role as gatekeepers to the American legal system seriously. While I am sure CLS would be happy to enroll the next Bill Gates, I doubt that they can readily predict such unusual success outside of the non-legal profession. On the whole, I think, American law schools would like to enroll students who they believe will make use of their legal education.

The last thing I would say is that all of these arguments apply only to foreign applicants in general, and the premises may not apply in individual cases. I have little doubt that an admissions officer would give full and equal consideration to an individual who clearly is familiar with the English language and American law, and wants to make some use of that education. I argue simply that ex-ante, a foreign applicant may need to explain why they want to be here, and that they are capable of handling the different work of an American professional school, to a degree that a domestic applicant would not. If someone raised and educated in the Mongolian school system applied to your law school, wouldn't you want more than a LSAT score and a GPA?


A few thoughts -

1) If the foreigner has an undergraduate degree where the language of instruction is English, I don't see how the risk of language-related difficulty in law school is higher than a domestic student. And with respect to the cultural premises that lurk within judicial opinions, I'm quite sure there are enough students within the U.S. itself who do not understand the culture prevalent in other geographical locations within the U.S.. If anything, my ability at having already adapted once to a foreign culture (and trust me India to Singapore is a very big culture shock) should hold me in good stead.

2 & 3) This may be true and seems like a legitimate concern. I guess my personal statement has to allay most of these concerns somehow.


Anyway, this whole thread has been extremely informative. I plan to apply to the top 6/7 schools early in Sep and based on the response, if necessary I'll look at other schools.

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FlanAl
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Re: 179 LSAT/2nd Class Upper Honours

Postby FlanAl » Mon Aug 09, 2010 8:26 pm

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=110804

this is what people applying from the UK are dealing with. most of us have 2:1's. As far as I can tell lsac hasn't done anything with my transcript other than saying that its foreign, hopefully the credential assembly thing I had to pay way extra for does something in the end.

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kazu
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Re: 179 LSAT/2nd Class Upper Honours

Postby kazu » Tue Aug 10, 2010 12:44 am

hypothalamus wrote:Oh, and the LSAC *specifically* says they do NOT convert foreign GPA to American GPA, when the person is considered foreign-educated. Instead, they give some sort of non-numerical estimate of how the student performed in undergrad.


This is correct.

For additional info on foreign transcripts, LSAC runs them through some foreign credentials analysis service or something (forgot the exact name) which ranks them according to what you got / the prestige of your school.
I *think* there's 4 levels; Superior, Above Average, Average, and Below Average.
They give basic info about your degree (dates attended, credits obtained, current status etc - pretty basic stuff)
Then they provide a "grading scale" with the "indigenous score" and the corresponding "suggested U.S. grade".
So, since you're from a UK system I'm guessing it'll go First Class = ?, Upper Second = ?, Lower Second = ?, etc.
They don't straight out say "since this student got a X this equals a X", however it is implied.

Also, you might want to get your transcript processed sooner rather than later. While mine was processed a couple of days after LSAC received it, I think for some foreign transcripts it could take longer.

kevin261186 wrote:you will get $0 scholarship money if you are not a U.S. citizen.


This is not true. I know several non-citizens who got scholarship money. Also, Harvard loans money to their students under the same conditions as a U.S. student loan. (It's on their website) Other schools might do this as well. You do have to prove that you can pay for law school when you apply for a student visa, but that comes later.

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clintonius
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Re: 179 LSAT/2nd Class Upper Honours

Postby clintonius » Tue Aug 10, 2010 9:50 am

kazu wrote:
kevin261186 wrote:you will get $0 scholarship money if you are not a U.S. citizen.
This is not true. I know several non-citizens who got scholarship money. Also, Harvard loans money to their students under the same conditions as a U.S. student loan. (It's on their website) Other schools might do this as well. You do have to prove that you can pay for law school when you apply for a student visa, but that comes later.

Indeed -- scholarship money =/= federal aid. I am under the impression that non-citizen students are not eligible for the latter, but that shouldn't have any effect on how much of its own money a university wants to throw at any given student.

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LLB2JD
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Re: 179 LSAT/2nd Class Upper Honours

Postby LLB2JD » Tue Aug 10, 2010 10:10 am

FlanAl wrote:http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=110804

this is what people applying from the UK are dealing with. most of us have 2:1's. As far as I can tell lsac hasn't done anything with my transcript other than saying that its foreign, hopefully the credential assembly thing I had to pay way extra for does something in the end.



Is the credential assembly process not included in the LSDA? I haven't processed my transcripts yet

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kazu
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Re: 179 LSAT/2nd Class Upper Honours

Postby kazu » Tue Aug 10, 2010 11:39 am

LLB2JD wrote:
FlanAl wrote:http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=110804

this is what people applying from the UK are dealing with. most of us have 2:1's. As far as I can tell lsac hasn't done anything with my transcript other than saying that its foreign, hopefully the credential assembly thing I had to pay way extra for does something in the end.



Is the credential assembly process not included in the LSDA? I haven't processed my transcripts yet

What do you mean by "LSDA"?

You need to purchase CAS (Credential Assembly Service) in order to process any transcripts, domestic or international.

From the site:

wrote:The Credential Assembly Service (CAS) creates your law school report by combining

* an academic summary report;
* LSAT score(s) and writing sample(s);
* copies of all undergraduate, graduate, and law/professional school transcripts; and
* copies of letters of recommendation, if applicable.

The Credential Assembly Service fee covers

* transcript summarization (and authentication and evaluation if applicable),
* creation of your law school report,
* letter of recommendation processing, and
* electronic application processing for all ABA-approved law schools.

Important Information

You may perform any of the tasks below in any order you choose, however, your law school report will not be released until

* Credential Assembly Service (CAS) is purchased;
* information about the schools you've attended is submitted;
* transcripts for schools attended are received and processed;
* LSAT score exists in your file; and
* required letters of recommendation are received.

You should register and pay for the Credential Assembly Service at least four to six weeks before your first law school application deadline. It takes approximately two weeks to process a transcript or letter of recommendation from the time it is received.

creatinganalt
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Re: 179 LSAT/2nd Class Upper Honours

Postby creatinganalt » Wed Aug 11, 2010 7:50 am

Undergraduate quality matters much more for internationals. No one seems to have mentioned that so I thought I'd mention it. Also, a 2:1 doesn't really mean much. It covers about 60% of university graduates so is totally open to interpretation. A 2:1 can mean anything from a 3.0 to a 3.8. Seriously. A score and rank (i.e. how it will be translated by LSDAS) will matter more. It will be a judgment call by the school depending on tons of things including:

- perceived difficulty/rigor/prestige of university system in that country
- perceived difficult/rigor/prestige of the particular UG school

As well as all the subjective things about major etc and then probably the quality of your entire package. Someone who learned English at 15 and has a 3.7 (plus an amazing LSAT and tons of publications/cured cancer/orphans in native country etc/LORs saying this person is the next Mandela etc) is a totally different applicant to someone with the same numbers but without the story/hardship.

It's just really really subjective and I'd encourage to OP to apply to more than 6 schools. He could sweep HYSCCN or get into none. Someone with the exact same 'numbers' could do the opposite.

This is not out of line for law school admissions. It is pretty much acknowledged that law schools tend to emphasize softs/UG/major for URM cycles with similar reasoning.

That aside, I personally think that if there are two students - one domestic and one international - with the same numbers, that the domestic student would get the place. I don't think that schools recruit foreign students for JDs in the way that they recruit for their Masters (i.e. seeing a cash cow). I think they are more focused on the domestic diversity requirements. I also look at the the varying numbers of foreign students at similarly ranked/situated schools and think it is unlikely that schools do not have some internal policy on internationals which sets their numbers based on policy, not application numbers.

E.g, Columbia = 9% foreign but NYU = 3% foreign. UMich = 3.5% but UVa = 1%. NW = 7.5% and Duke 1.5%.

Yes there are reputational differences, etc. But check out all of the numbers and there are some pretty big differences across the top schools.

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SentinelsOfEvil
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Re: 179 LSAT/2nd Class Upper Honours

Postby SentinelsOfEvil » Wed Aug 11, 2010 9:35 am

creatinganalt wrote:Undergraduate quality matters much more for internationals. No one seems to have mentioned that so I thought I'd mention it. Also, a 2:1 doesn't really mean much. It covers about 60% of university graduates so is totally open to interpretation. A 2:1 can mean anything from a 3.0 to a 3.8. Seriously. A score and rank (i.e. how it will be translated by LSDAS) will matter more. It will be a judgment call by the school depending on tons of things including:

- perceived difficulty/rigor/prestige of university system in that country
- perceived difficult/rigor/prestige of the particular UG school

As well as all the subjective things about major etc and then probably the quality of your entire package. Someone who learned English at 15 and has a 3.7 (plus an amazing LSAT and tons of publications/cured cancer/orphans in native country etc/LORs saying this person is the next Mandela etc) is a totally different applicant to someone with the same numbers but without the story/hardship.

It's just really really subjective and I'd encourage to OP to apply to more than 6 schools. He could sweep HYSCCN or get into none. Someone with the exact same 'numbers' could do the opposite.

This is not out of line for law school admissions. It is pretty much acknowledged that law schools tend to emphasize softs/UG/major for URM cycles with similar reasoning.

That aside, I personally think that if there are two students - one domestic and one international - with the same numbers, that the domestic student would get the place. I don't think that schools recruit foreign students for JDs in the way that they recruit for their Masters (i.e. seeing a cash cow). I think they are more focused on the domestic diversity requirements. I also look at the the varying numbers of foreign students at similarly ranked/situated schools and think it is unlikely that schools do not have some internal policy on internationals which sets their numbers based on policy, not application numbers.

E.g, Columbia = 9% foreign but NYU = 3% foreign. UMich = 3.5% but UVa = 1%. NW = 7.5% and Duke 1.5%.

Yes there are reputational differences, etc. But check out all of the numbers and there are some pretty big differences across the top schools.


Thanks for the info, a 2:1 at my university (the top university in Singapore, though that is not necessarily saying much) is around top 10-25% and not 60%... I guess I have to make that clear in my application somehow...

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SentinelsOfEvil
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Re: 179 LSAT/2nd Class Upper Honours

Postby SentinelsOfEvil » Wed Aug 18, 2010 10:37 pm

creatinganalt wrote:It's just really really subjective and I'd encourage to OP to apply to more than 6 schools. He could sweep HYSCCN or get into none. Someone with the exact same 'numbers' could do the opposite.


UVA just sent me an unsolicited application fee waiver. That should hopefullly be a good backup to apply to.

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Nulli Secundus
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Re: 179 LSAT/2nd Class Upper Honours

Postby Nulli Secundus » Thu Aug 19, 2010 10:23 am

Citing low amounts of international students as evidence for a preferential disadvantage for international students with regards to admissions to law school is a flawed approach, I think. Lower amounts of international students may be caused by low number of international applicants which in turn may be caused by several factors, that include but are not limited to:

- LSAT being intimidating for many non-native speakers
- The relatively low value of a JD degree outside US
- Less financial aid options

If law schools valued only domestic diversity as you claim, e.g. Harvard would not list all countries international students originated from, but instead would do something like:

94% US Citizens
6% International (We swear, we didn't wanna, but there was no one else)

creatinganalt
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Re: 179 LSAT/2nd Class Upper Honours

Postby creatinganalt » Thu Aug 19, 2010 12:10 pm

nullisecundus wrote:Citing low amounts of international students as evidence for a preferential disadvantage for international students with regards to admissions to law school is a flawed approach, I think. Lower amounts of international students may be caused by low number of international applicants which in turn may be caused by several factors, that include but are not limited to:

- LSAT being intimidating for many non-native speakers
- The relatively low value of a JD degree outside US
- Less financial aid options

If law schools valued only domestic diversity as you claim, e.g. Harvard would not list all countries international students originated from, but instead would do something like:

94% US Citizens
6% International (We swear, we didn't wanna, but there was no one else)


Actually that's not what I said.

I said I think that there isn't a straightforward relationship between application and admission (like for domestic students), both because of the varying results that I have seen amongst international students with the same 'numbers' and because schools of the same calibre have varying levels of international students. This is not at odds with the way in which schools treat URMs except that URMs are more similar and so it is much easier to see a relationship between (for e.g. prestigious UG and acceptance).

Secondly the bolded is pretty far fetched. I didn't say they didn't care about anything but domestic diversity, just that this was clearly the focus. I'm not sure how that can be argued. Schools list all of the stupid things that applicants have done (being a juggler etc) and there is no way that those activities get a 'boost' either. They also list countries that their students have 'lived in' which achieves the same copy with US students. Because while schools value interesting and quirky packages, there is no evidence that except for a specific set of domestic applicants, schools favour them over other similarly credentialed applicants. Schools value geographic diversity from within America, but do they need to dip below their median to find someone from Alaska? Maybe. Would they? Maybe in the right circumstances. No one really knows.

(My opinion) I think that the person from Alaska would be stupid to assume a URM boost on zero evidence and construct perfectly logically valid arguments on the basis that 'valued' because they are 'different'. But website copy aside, what evidence is there that their 'difference' is valued? What evidence is there that they desire international students over domestic ones? And, honestly, why would they?

For 'Masters in international relations', I get it. You want the next President of Pakistan to have gone to Harvard. All my friends in MPPs etc basically hang with diplomats and oil barons' kids.

But US law school seems pretty domestic on the whole. It feeds politically and academically into the US system. They have a whole set of internationals on the LLM programme. Most of them are already highly qualified lawyers who are feeding into the UN/World Bank/development work anyway. Google these jobs - very few entry level US JDs there. Lots of LLMs with people with tons of experience.

So why do they need international JDs?

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Nulli Secundus
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Re: 179 LSAT/2nd Class Upper Honours

Postby Nulli Secundus » Fri Aug 20, 2010 3:14 am

Don't go straw man all over my a$$, bro.

I did not say they prefer international applicants over domestic ones. I just say, given similar numbers, international students have similar chances with domestic students, not less as you claimed.

Referring to

That aside, I personally think that if there are two students - one domestic and one international - with the same numbers, that the domestic student would get the place.


You cited varying levels of internationals as evidence to this, so I said there might be other factors. And there are, did you know that, e.g. Harvard is the only school providing loans that do not require US cosigner? A huge factor, if you do not know anyone in the US, and not every international applicant is Harvard-caliber.

The Real Jack McCoy
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Re: 179 LSAT/2nd Class Upper Honours

Postby The Real Jack McCoy » Fri Aug 20, 2010 12:23 pm

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Last edited by The Real Jack McCoy on Wed Apr 06, 2011 5:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

creatinganalt
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Re: 179 LSAT/2nd Class Upper Honours

Postby creatinganalt » Fri Aug 20, 2010 5:42 pm

nullisecundus wrote:Don't go straw man all over my a$$, bro.

I did not say they prefer international applicants over domestic ones. I just say, given similar numbers, international students have similar chances with domestic students, not less as you claimed.

Referring to

That aside, I personally think that if there are two students - one domestic and one international - with the same numbers, that the domestic student would get the place.


You cited varying levels of internationals as evidence to this, so I said there might be other factors. And there are, did you know that, e.g. Harvard is the only school providing loans that do not require US cosigner? A huge factor, if you do not know anyone in the US, and not every international applicant is Harvard-caliber.


Actually I didn't. I used that as evidence that it was likely that there was some internal policy in place governing admissions of international students at schools, given the level of variation between the schools. I'm also pretty sure that I know about HLS and the loans situ (given that I'm an international student starting at HLS next week). I also know a decent no of international students who have had varying experiences. I know a student who got into Yale but HLS told him that his degree wasn't even 'equivalent' to a bachelors. And other stories. From that I have a picture in my mind of how various students have been treated and I simply don't believe the 'special talk'. But YMMV.

pearla
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Re: 179 LSAT/2nd Class Upper Honours

Postby pearla » Sat Apr 14, 2012 1:11 am

LLB2JD wrote:
SentinelsOfEvil wrote:Not familiar with the specific tiers... I always assumed T meant top there... My bad... Anyway, to rephrase, what are my chances at getting into Yale, Stanford, Harvard, Columbia, U of Chicago, NYU and Berkley?




To answer your question specifically, you have a more than average chance into landing at least one of those schools, except for Yale where nobody knows anybody that goes there nor whether it is really a law school.



:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: Made my day...

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Re: 179 LSAT/2nd Class Upper Honours

Postby bernaldiaz » Sat Apr 14, 2012 1:16 am

SentinelsOfEvil wrote:
Holly Golightly wrote:
SentinelsOfEvil wrote:
TommyK wrote:I'm sure there are some people who know what it means to have the equivalent to a British blah blah degree, but the majority of posters here won't. Regardless, with a 179, you'll have a very good chance at virtually any school (with the exception of Yale - which, as I understand, is always a crapshoot)


The only reason I posted that is because I did not receive a GPA from my uni... I'm not sure how exactly law schools handle foreign degrees with no GPAs...

It varies school-to-school, but with that LSAT score I imagine you have a good shot at all of the schools you listed.


Thanks for the info


Not quite sure about this. I doubt a 2-1 would be superior. I know that law schools are typically more lenient towards international GPA's, but like a 2-1 is a pretty common grade at most universities. Was at cambridge for a while, and at least in my department about 70% of kids got 2-1's (with about 15% got 1sts and 15% 2-2's or worse). I would think that Yale and Stanford would want superior, but I could be wrong. I think he would be a splitter.

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jcccc
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Re: 179 LSAT/2nd Class Upper Honours

Postby jcccc » Sat Apr 14, 2012 5:46 am

retake
179 will only get you T12

indo
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Re: 179 LSAT/2nd Class Upper Honours

Postby indo » Sat Apr 14, 2012 6:11 am

SentinelsOfEvil wrote:I have a second class upper honours degree (Equivalent to the British 2:1) in engineering from a foreign university (NTU, Singapore), 2 years work experience in the finance industry (3 by next fall) and I scored a 179 in my only LSAT attempt... I'm a 23 y/o Male from India... What are my chances at the T6 universities?



NTU = Nanyang Technological University Is a great school.
I believe NTU grading systems as follow:
1) First class Honors = A- to A+
2) Second Class Honors = B- to B +
3) Third Class Honors = C- to C+

Second class upper honor = B+

I do not think you will get any scholarship from any T14.

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2014
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Re: 179 LSAT/2nd Class Upper Honours

Postby 2014 » Sat Apr 14, 2012 11:31 am

Why in the world was this bumped?

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echamberlin8
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Re: 179 LSAT/2nd Class Upper Honours

Postby echamberlin8 » Sat Apr 14, 2012 11:42 am

Let me just say, I'm very jealous of your LSAT. I think if you have a GPA that converts into a 3.6-3.8, you have a good shot at every school other than Yale. If you have a 3.8 or higher, I think you can get Yale.




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