NYU chances: Real LSAT score + Hypo. Retake

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Mike12188
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NYU chances: Real LSAT score + Hypo. Retake

Postby Mike12188 » Fri Aug 06, 2010 4:38 pm

Before everyone freaks out, I took the June LSAT and scored a 171 but lately I have been thinking about retaking if I am practicing close to perfect. So if you guys would predict my chances it'd be helpful because I'm not sure if people report multiple LSAT scores on LSN.

LSAT June '10: 171
LSAT Oct. '10: 176+ (Hypo)
LSDAs GPA: 3.24

UVA (figure I won't have to ED with a good retake)
Penn (same as UVA)
NYU ED

czelede
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Re: NYU chances: Real LSAT score + Hypo. Retake

Postby czelede » Fri Aug 06, 2010 5:35 pm

Your chances are slim at NYU and Penn ED without the retake. Slightly better at Penn than NYU. A little better at UVA ED than both.

Penn and UVA don't care about retakes, but there is evidence that NYU is one of the few schools that remains picky about accepting retakes.

lawschool2014
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Re: NYU chances: Real LSAT score + Hypo. Retake

Postby lawschool2014 » Fri Aug 06, 2010 5:38 pm

Yea, your embarrassing GPA will hinder your prospects at NYU. Anywhere in the t12ish onward should be possible.

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Jay W. Weatherman
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Re: NYU chances: Real LSAT score + Hypo. Retake

Postby Jay W. Weatherman » Fri Aug 06, 2010 5:58 pm

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Last edited by Jay W. Weatherman on Wed Sep 08, 2010 10:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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thecilent
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Re: NYU chances: Real LSAT score + Hypo. Retake

Postby thecilent » Fri Aug 06, 2010 6:00 pm

lawschool2014 wrote: Yea, your embarrassing GPA will hinder your prospects at NYU. Anywhere in the t12ish onward should be possible.


lol must say, your posts usually do make me laugh

Also, OP - you are practicing close to 180 you're saying?

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Mike12188
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Re: NYU chances: Real LSAT score + Hypo. Retake

Postby Mike12188 » Fri Aug 06, 2010 6:52 pm

czelede wrote:Your chances are slim at NYU and Penn ED without the retake. Slightly better at Penn than NYU. A little better at UVA ED than both.

Penn and UVA don't care about retakes, but there is evidence that NYU is one of the few schools that remains picky about accepting retakes.


According to LSN a anything over 3.0 and 170+ is pretty much a lock for UVA, Penn a little lower but ED is a big boost there as well. I just wanted to see if NYU would be a realistic reach with a good retake but from the responses here I see that's a no.

lawschool2014 wrote:Yea, your embarrassing GPA will hinder your prospects at NYU. Anywhere in the t12ish onward should be possible.


Not arguing that the GPA is embarrassing but I think you are quite wrong about being out above t12. I think you are underestimating the boost ED gives at UVA and how splitter-friendly they are. I don't think anything below MVP are worth sticker (not even sure they are but I'm willing to take a chance on them) so if your correct looks like I'm taking a year off.

Jay W. Weatherman wrote:Chiming in because I had somewhat similar numbers.

I had a 167 that I retook up to a 174. My GPA was a 3.36.

Basically, as a splitter, its going to be completely unpredictable. I got into Chicago, Cornell and Vandy. I was waitlisted at Columbia (ED), NYU, MVP, Northwestern, G'Town and UCLA. Apply broadly and good luck.


After you were waitlisted at Columbia did you apply ED anywhere else?

thecilent wrote: Also, OP - you are practicing close to 180 you're saying?


Only took 2 PTs since I thought about retaking a couple days ago. 177 and a 175, one was a little older though. And I just wanted to ask here before I even started to really study again to see if it was worth it.

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Jay W. Weatherman
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Re: NYU chances: Real LSAT score + Hypo. Retake

Postby Jay W. Weatherman » Fri Aug 06, 2010 7:00 pm

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Last edited by Jay W. Weatherman on Wed Sep 08, 2010 10:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

czelede
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Re: NYU chances: Real LSAT score + Hypo. Retake

Postby czelede » Fri Aug 06, 2010 7:13 pm

Mike12188 wrote:
czelede wrote:Your chances are slim at NYU and Penn ED without the retake. Slightly better at Penn than NYU. A little better at UVA ED than both.

Penn and UVA don't care about retakes, but there is evidence that NYU is one of the few schools that remains picky about accepting retakes.


According to LSN a anything over 3.0 and 170+ is pretty much a lock for UVA, Penn a little lower but ED is a big boost there as well. I just wanted to see if NYU would be a realistic reach with a good retake but from the responses here I see that's a no.

lawschool2014 wrote:Yea, your embarrassing GPA will hinder your prospects at NYU. Anywhere in the t12ish onward should be possible.


Not arguing that the GPA is embarrassing but I think you are quite wrong about being out above t12. I think you are underestimating the boost ED gives at UVA and how splitter-friendly they are. I don't think anything below MVP are worth sticker (not even sure they are but I'm willing to take a chance on them) so if your correct looks like I'm taking a year off.

Jay W. Weatherman wrote:Chiming in because I had somewhat similar numbers.

I had a 167 that I retook up to a 174. My GPA was a 3.36.

Basically, as a splitter, its going to be completely unpredictable. I got into Chicago, Cornell and Vandy. I was waitlisted at Columbia (ED), NYU, MVP, Northwestern, G'Town and UCLA. Apply broadly and good luck.


After you were waitlisted at Columbia did you apply ED anywhere else?

thecilent wrote: Also, OP - you are practicing close to 180 you're saying?


Only took 2 PTs since I thought about retaking a couple days ago. 177 and a 175, one was a little older though. And I just wanted to ask here before I even started to really study again to see if it was worth it.


Yeah, if you don't retake I would say definitely shoot that ED to UVA. ED at Penn is a big boost, but your 171 is at their 75% line, which doesn't do that much for them. I've seen a lower GPA get in with a 172 but really only one on LSN, and we don't know what their softs were. It wouldn't be impossible to ED in with a 3.24/171, but just very unlikely. Especially if your undergrad/softs aren't spectacular (with regards to this, while your undergrad major/rigor doesn't really mean much except as another soft, a lot of times schools are more willing to swallow a low GPA for a high LSAT score because they might be able to excuse your academic performance in some way). With a 3.24/171 you're out at NYU ED almost without a doubt.

I think what lawschool2014 meant is that without a retake you're looking at t12 onwards as places you can safely attain. This doesn't mean you can't get IN anywhere from t6-t12, just that none of those are "safe". Maybe. I don't really know what they're thinking. The thing with splitters is that nothing is really a lock - higher LSAT splitters than you have been shut out of the t10.

It might be worth it to retake if you are sure you can bring your score up in the next two/three months or so. How did you perform last time with regards to your PT? If you are a very consistent performer in regards to PT->actual test then if you can average a 176+ I would consider retaking. Still, I'm always wary on banking an application cycle on a score you don't have yet because even the best PT performers can be hit with a wave of misfortune on test day.

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Re: NYU chances: Real LSAT score + Hypo. Retake

Postby Mike12188 » Fri Aug 06, 2010 7:21 pm

czelede wrote:
Yeah, if you don't retake I would say definitely shoot that ED to UVA. ED at Penn is a big boost, but your 171 is at their 75% line, which doesn't do that much for them. I've seen a lower GPA get in with a 172 but really only one on LSN, and we don't know what their softs were. It wouldn't be impossible to ED in with a 3.24/171, but just very unlikely. Especially if your undergrad/softs aren't spectacular (with regards to this, while your undergrad major/rigor doesn't really mean much except as another soft, a lot of times schools are more willing to swallow a low GPA for a high LSAT score because they might be able to excuse your academic performance in some way). With a 3.24/171 you're out at NYU ED almost without a doubt.

I think what lawschool2014 meant is that without a retake you're looking at t12 onwards as places you can safely attain. This doesn't mean you can't get IN anywhere from t6-t12, just that none of those are "safe". Maybe. I don't really know what they're thinking. The thing with splitters is that nothing is really a lock - higher LSAT splitters than you have been shut out of the t10.

It might be worth it to retake if you are sure you can bring your score up in the next two/three months or so. How did you perform last time with regards to your PT? If you are a very consistent performer in regards to PT->actual test then if you can average a 176+ I would consider retaking. Still, I'm always wary on banking an application cycle on a score you don't have yet because even the best PT performers can be hit with a wave of misfortune on test day.


I only slept 3 hours before Test Day and I got -2 on LG when I went -0 on the last 10 preptests. But I was practicing anywhere from a 170-177. I only plan on retaking if I am consistently practicing 176+.

green
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Re: NYU chances: Real LSAT score + Hypo. Retake

Postby green » Fri Aug 06, 2010 7:43 pm

Mike12188 wrote:
czelede wrote:Your chances are slim at NYU and Penn ED without the retake. Slightly better at Penn than NYU. A little better at UVA ED than both.

Penn and UVA don't care about retakes, but there is evidence that NYU is one of the few schools that remains picky about accepting retakes.


According to LSN a anything over 3.0 and 170+ is pretty much a lock for UVA, Penn a little lower but ED is a big boost there as well. I just wanted to see if NYU would be a realistic reach with a good retake but from the responses here I see that's a no.

lawschool2014 wrote:Yea, your embarrassing GPA will hinder your prospects at NYU. Anywhere in the t12ish onward should be possible.


Not arguing that the GPA is embarrassing but I think you are quite wrong about being out above t12. I think you are underestimating the boost ED gives at UVA and how splitter-friendly they are. I don't think anything below MVP are worth sticker (not even sure they are but I'm willing to take a chance on them) so if your correct looks like I'm taking a year off.

Jay W. Weatherman wrote:Chiming in because I had somewhat similar numbers.

I had a 167 that I retook up to a 174. My GPA was a 3.36.

Basically, as a splitter, its going to be completely unpredictable. I got into Chicago, Cornell and Vandy. I was waitlisted at Columbia (ED), NYU, MVP, Northwestern, G'Town and UCLA. Apply broadly and good luck.


After you were waitlisted at Columbia did you apply ED anywhere else?

thecilent wrote: Also, OP - you are practicing close to 180 you're saying?


Only took 2 PTs since I thought about retaking a couple days ago. 177 and a 175, one was a little older though. And I just wanted to ask here before I even started to really study again to see if it was worth it.


3.0 and 170+ is NOT a lock at UVA. Maybe higher 170s, but definitely not 170.

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Mike12188
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Re: NYU chances: Real LSAT score + Hypo. Retake

Postby Mike12188 » Fri Aug 06, 2010 8:04 pm

green wrote:
3.0 and 170+ is NOT a lock at UVA. Maybe higher 170s, but definitely not 170.


I meant ED and everything I say is assuming applying in September. Check LSN.

umich09uva13 - 171/3.24
ashdiamond - 170/3.19
tumbleweed664 - 173/3.01 (not even ED)
aznflyingpanda - 170/2.99

tlsfa8
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Re: NYU chances: Real LSAT score + Hypo. Retake

Postby tlsfa8 » Fri Aug 06, 2010 8:14 pm

Jay W. Weatherman wrote:
Mike12188 wrote:
Jay W. Weatherman wrote:Chiming in because I had somewhat similar numbers.

I had a 167 that I retook up to a 174. My GPA was a 3.36.

Basically, as a splitter, its going to be completely unpredictable. I got into Chicago, Cornell and Vandy. I was waitlisted at Columbia (ED), NYU, MVP, Northwestern, G'Town and UCLA. Apply broadly and good luck.


After you were waitlisted at Columbia did you apply ED anywhere else?


Nope. I was in EA at Cornell, and both Chicago and Vandy both got back to me in early January so I didn't consider ED'ing to UVA when they changed their policy to let you ED whenever.


Hey Jay, do you mind letting me know when in the cycle you applied?

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Re: NYU chances: Real LSAT score + Hypo. Retake

Postby rklafehn » Fri Aug 06, 2010 8:27 pm

According to LSN (search applicants with 170 - 177 LSAT and a GPA between 3.2 and 3.3), your likelihood of getting into any of these schools (doesn't matter whether you retake and/or ED) is slim to none.

I would retake if you want to and then ED to the school of your choice on that list. However, I more realistic school choice would be t12ish and down, which has already been mentioned.

czelede
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Re: NYU chances: Real LSAT score + Hypo. Retake

Postby czelede » Fri Aug 06, 2010 8:30 pm

Uh, this is not true at all for Penn and UVA. Or its equivalent, Mich. A 3.3/175+ does NOT need to be aiming for t12 or lower.

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Re: NYU chances: Real LSAT score + Hypo. Retake

Postby rklafehn » Fri Aug 06, 2010 8:37 pm

Fine. But because of the GPA those schools are still anything but certain. When I say "aim" I mean that you can expect to be admitted.

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Mike12188
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Re: NYU chances: Real LSAT score + Hypo. Retake

Postby Mike12188 » Fri Aug 06, 2010 8:50 pm

rklafehn wrote:Fine. But because of the GPA those schools are still anything but certain. When I say "aim" I mean that you can expect to be admitted.


Please do a little research before posting. Search LSN for ED applicants only over 170+ I posted a few above this. Also search TLS for the board consensus on how much of a boost UVA ED gives applicants as well as how splitter-friendly they are. I understand I asked a question on here and I'm not against hearing the answer I don't want but please leave an educated response if your going to reply.

Right now I'm thinking I'm going to apply ED to UVA Sept. 1st, so when I hear back 2 weeks later (max), if I don't get in I will come on here and acknowledge that I was wrong and you sir are correct.

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Re: NYU chances: Real LSAT score + Hypo. Retake

Postby czelede » Fri Aug 06, 2010 9:00 pm

rklafehn wrote:Fine. But because of the GPA those schools are still anything but certain. When I say "aim" I mean that you can expect to be admitted.


I really don't think you've done your research for splitters.

Any 3.2/173+ with WE is reasonable in expecting to be admitted to NU (#11), especially ED

Any 3.2+/175+ can be fairly confident about being admitted to one of MVP ED. RD is a little different.

There are always exceptions, but there are exceptions to nearly EVERY SET OF NUMBERS. Almost nothing is 100% unless you are really above both 75%tiles (and even then, there's the danger of YP). I would say that >80% chance makes you fairly safe in "expecting to be admitted". And I would say that a 3.3/175+ definitely has >80% at one or more of the top 12 schools, at the very least, when the ED card comes into play.

GPAs make things a tossup for schools that have GPA cutoffs, even though these lines are often not as hard as people make it out to be. NU will reach into the 2.xs for a 175+, Penn/Mich will dip to 3.1/3.2, UVA to 3.0. CCN don't like to go below 3.4.

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Re: NYU chances: Real LSAT score + Hypo. Retake

Postby rklafehn » Fri Aug 06, 2010 9:03 pm

I did do research. Finding four people who are accepted does not mean that a large percentage of people got accepted. They could be the exception to the rule.

Once again, when I say "aim" I meant expect acceptance. Even with a retake, you cannot expect acceptance at anyone of those three schools. You may be a coin flip at best (being very optimistic).

Look at how I defined "aim" everybody who is saying I didn't do research!!

rklafehn
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Re: NYU chances: Real LSAT score + Hypo. Retake

Postby rklafehn » Fri Aug 06, 2010 9:06 pm

And yes, with work experience you would be a perfect NU candidate.

If you are trying to get into the highest ranked school possible, I would ED to UPenn. Then, if that doesn't work out, ED to UVA. They have some acceptances on LSN with your stats and ED. NYU is a no go.

Once again, I didn't say you wouldn't get into the t12, I just said there is a possibility you won't because you can't ED to every school. Let's work on our reading comprehension.

czelede
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Re: NYU chances: Real LSAT score + Hypo. Retake

Postby czelede » Fri Aug 06, 2010 9:14 pm

rklafehn wrote:I did do research. Finding four people who are accepted does not mean that a large percentage of people got accepted. They could be the exception to the rule.

Once again, when I say "aim" I meant expect acceptance. Even with a retake, you cannot expect acceptance at anyone of those three schools. You may be a coin flip at best (being very optimistic).

Look at how I defined "aim" everybody who is saying I didn't do research!!


What in the world are you talking about? Are you defining "aim" as safety? Because that's just stupid, aims should be TARGETS. "Backups" are safeties. Like I said, I think its safe to expect an acceptance when you have a >80% chance of getting in.

No, finding four people who are accepted does not mean that large percentage of people got accepted. But do you have any idea how FEW 3.2x/175+ applicants there are on LSN each year? Finding that there were eight people with a 3.2x/175+ that applied ED to Penn and finding that seven were accepted does make that a target, not a reach (and in fact I'm pretty sure that ED applicants have an even greater ratio of acceptance). Those who are rejected from MVP ED or NU ED (with WE) with a 3.2-3.3/175+ ARE the exception, not the rule.

Additionally, none of the mentioned schools (MVP, NU) give a damn about retakes. It's a numbers game, we pretty much know they really only care about highest (and a 171 first time is really not bad to begin with). ED is VERY significant at MVP for HIGH LSATs because it is in their favor to take the score early in the cycle, when they can balance their medians out with one of the many many above 75% GPA applicants there are out there. Again, I am not talking RD.

With WE, a retake at 175+ and a solid application in for early decision it is in no way a "coin toss" to expect a t11 acceptance.

If you did research, then you clearly aren't very good at it.

czelede
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Re: NYU chances: Real LSAT score + Hypo. Retake

Postby czelede » Fri Aug 06, 2010 9:16 pm

rklafehn wrote:Once again, I didn't say you wouldn't get into the t12, I just said there is a possibility you won't because you can't ED to every school. Let's work on our reading comprehension.


And I quote:

rklafehn wrote:According to LSN (search applicants with 170 - 177 LSAT and a GPA between 3.2 and 3.3), your likelihood of getting into any of these schools (doesn't matter whether you retake and/or ED) is slim to none.

I would retake if you want to and then ED to the school of your choice on that list. However, I more realistic school choice would be t12ish and down, which has already been mentioned.


Let's work on staying consistent. Of course there's a possibility OP will be shut out of the t12, nothing is ever 100% with splitters. But if we're talking chances, a 175+ retake combined with ED is far from "slim to none" or "coin toss, if we're being optimistic". It IS realistic to target t12 with a 175+/ED.

rklafehn
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Re: NYU chances: Real LSAT score + Hypo. Retake

Postby rklafehn » Fri Aug 06, 2010 9:23 pm

While you may or may not be right about ED, where the hell are you getting 7 out of 8?

My stats were based off a total search (extended to 3.0 - 3.5 GPA and 175+ LSAT) of UPenn:

2 Acceptances, 6 Rejections, 10 WLs, 3 Pending

Yes, the one person who ED did get in. So, that may be a good sign. But that as a "target" looks slightly iffy.

Also, my definition of "aim" may be poor. That is about all I am giving you.

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Re: NYU chances: Real LSAT score + Hypo. Retake

Postby rklafehn » Fri Aug 06, 2010 9:25 pm

But you can only really ED to one school (2 if you ED, get rejected, then ED to UVA).

Thus, you are taking a chance at one school. You cannot ED to all of them and hope one accepts you. Thus, your theory of one of MVP will accept you because of ED becomes not as plausible.

czelede
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Re: NYU chances: Real LSAT score + Hypo. Retake

Postby czelede » Fri Aug 06, 2010 9:30 pm

For the record, I don't know what kind of "search" you performed with "170-177/3.2-3.3" but I did a LSN search of the 2009-2010 cycle with the following parameters: 170-180/3.0-3.3 for EARLY DECISION, URM excluded, multiple LSAT included.

These were the results:

UVa: 5 applied, 4 accepted
3.2/176 - A
3.19/170 - A
3.1/176 - A
3.24/171 - A
3.16/171 - R
http://uva.lawschoolnumbers.com/applica ... =3&type=jd

Penn: 2 applied, 2 accepted
3.21/171 - A
3.28/175 - A
http://penn.lawschoolnumbers.com/applic ... =3&type=jd

So, 6 out of 7, but again, since I was referring to a 175+ retake in my "7/8" scenario, we can really go with 3 for 3. Yes, you can only ED one school. But with a 3.24/175+ on his retake, he has a better than 80% shot of being accepted at UVA or Penn ED. He only needs to ED one. Your assertion about "regardless of a retake, slim to none chances" is rather absurd.

czelede
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Re: NYU chances: Real LSAT score + Hypo. Retake

Postby czelede » Fri Aug 06, 2010 9:32 pm

Also note that:

1. Penn likes to WL, a LOT
2. Applying late is the kiss of death for splitters, yet so many of them do it. The one UVA ED rejection was a JANUARY application.




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