Why use LSN?

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fenway
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Why use LSN?

Postby fenway » Sun May 23, 2010 8:38 pm

why would you use a limited self-reported sample to gauge your acceptance prospects/scholarship chances? why not just go on lsac.org, look at the real (as in not potentially fake) data for admission and scholarship offers, and then just be easy. anyone making a serious decision/weighted inference from LSN data is doing themselves a disservice. its like paying your conscience with monopoly money

Kobe_Teeth
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Re: Why use LSN?

Postby Kobe_Teeth » Sun May 23, 2010 8:54 pm

I found it to be quite accurate.

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Na_Swatch
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Re: Why use LSN?

Postby Na_Swatch » Sun May 23, 2010 9:00 pm

Why do people eat Bananas? The relative lack of nutrition & vitamins and the supposedly inferior taste in comparison to Oranges make it a no brainer. You're doing yourself a disservice each time you eat one. It's like acting as dumb as a monkey.

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StrictlyLiable
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Re: Why use LSN?

Postby StrictlyLiable » Sun May 23, 2010 9:04 pm

Well LSAC.org doesn't give scholly info for exact number combinations. I find LSN useful for gauging my numbers against similar ones when getting a rough idea of how much I could get. Im sure that its reliable if others in similar range are reporting similar information.

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GeePee
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Re: Why use LSN?

Postby GeePee » Sun May 23, 2010 9:08 pm

fenway wrote:why would you use a limited self-reported sample to gauge your acceptance prospects/scholarship chances? why not just go on lsac.org, look at the real (as in not potentially fake) data for admission and scholarship offers, and then just be easy. anyone making a serious decision/weighted inference from LSN data is doing themselves a disservice. its like paying your conscience with monopoly money

This is the definition of a troll-- starting a totally pointless thread that neither starts an actual discussion nor asks a question. Hopefully it will be treated as such.

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bk1
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Re: Why use LSN?

Postby bk1 » Sun May 23, 2010 9:23 pm

What LSAC data is being referred to here?

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Grizz
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Re: Why use LSN?

Postby Grizz » Sun May 23, 2010 9:40 pm

LSN was dead on for me.

fenway
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Re: Why use LSN?

Postby fenway » Sun May 23, 2010 10:21 pm

GeePee wrote:
fenway wrote:why would you use a limited self-reported sample to gauge your acceptance prospects/scholarship chances? why not just go on lsac.org, look at the real (as in not potentially fake) data for admission and scholarship offers, and then just be easy. anyone making a serious decision/weighted inference from LSN data is doing themselves a disservice. its like paying your conscience with monopoly money

This is the definition of a troll-- starting a totally pointless thread that neither starts an actual discussion nor asks a question. Hopefully it will be treated as such.


--but I don't want to be a troll...

to avoid this, I should have said, "why would you rely on LSN over just looking at the numbers from lsac?" I was speaking more towards someone who looks at his or her score(s), goes to LSN, sees one similar example and then thinks that they have gotten any kind of solid indicator of his or her chances. I realize that LSN is more attractive because it gives specific numbers/outcomes, but its still isolated from the entire applicant pool. and the lsac has all the scholly data for schools published (% getting different amounts) so using this and instead of relying on a collection of (potentially) real anecdotes, you can simply employ common sense and compare the % receiving scholly v. the gpa/lsat ranges for the entire entering class. same would go for admission chances comparing off the acceptance %. or you could get real crazy and just wait for your letter to come back.

that banana shit was amusing. peel. banana. peel peel banana

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Grizz
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Re: Why use LSN?

Postby Grizz » Sun May 23, 2010 10:50 pm

Image





On LSN it's really easy to see broad trends like this in picture form. If a couple numbers are fudged, it doesn't really matter in the macro view.

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romothesavior
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Re: Why use LSN?

Postby romothesavior » Sun May 23, 2010 10:54 pm

^^^^^

That's why. You can see very clear patterns on LSN, which makes it even more useful than LSP. At WUSTL (my school), for example, you can see a green wall at 167. That's far more useful than a calculator.

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Thomas Jefferson
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Re: Why use LSN?

Postby Thomas Jefferson » Sun May 23, 2010 10:55 pm

rad law wrote:Image





On LSN it's really easy to see broad trends like this in picture form. If a couple numbers are fudged, it doesn't really matter in the macro view.


+1

Especially for splitter-ultra-friendly schools where you see can the wall of green at some score. For example, UMN and WUSTL at 167.

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Thomas Jefferson
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Re: Why use LSN?

Postby Thomas Jefferson » Sun May 23, 2010 10:56 pm

romothesavior wrote:^^^^^

That's why. You can see very clear patterns on LSN, which makes it even more useful than LSP. At WUSTL (my school), for example, you can see a green wall at 167. That's far more useful than a calculator.


Beat me to it.

fenway
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Re: Why use LSN?

Postby fenway » Sun May 23, 2010 11:06 pm

rad law wrote:Image





On LSN it's really easy to see broad trends like this in picture form. If a couple numbers are fudged, it doesn't really matter in the macro view.



---woah no. WAIT. are you telling me that the top right corner, aka the group above the 75th percentile for gpa and lsat, has really good chances of getting in?? and then it goes down accordingly from the 75-50, 50-25 more? There couldn't possibly be a way of doing that with a stupid graph using the real Lsac data for applicants, could there? What I learned on LSN today: a guy applied to harvard.. 4.0/180..he got in. now i totally know what I need to be a harvard man. shit this site is awesome...wait, there's another post saying 159/3.2 that says accepted to Harvard. o-m-g this changes everything. I only need a 159 and a 3.2 to go to harvard?! or wait, maybe its a 4.0/180?...I know: it's got to be somewhere in between--I totally just figured it out, thanks LSN!

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Grizz
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Re: Why use LSN?

Postby Grizz » Sun May 23, 2010 11:06 pm

The above is Vandy, by the way. Forgot to mention that.

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romothesavior
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Re: Why use LSN?

Postby romothesavior » Sun May 23, 2010 11:15 pm

fenway wrote:
---woah no. WAIT. are you telling me that the top right corner, aka the group above the 75th percentile for gpa and lsat, has really good chances of getting in?? and then it goes down accordingly from the 75-50, 50-25 more? There couldn't possibly be a way of doing that with a stupid graph using the real Lsac data for applicants, could there? What I learned on LSN today: a guy applied to harvard.. 4.0/180..he got in. now i totally know what I need to be a harvard man. shit this site is awesome...wait, there's another post saying 159/3.2 that says accepted to Harvard. o-m-g this changes everything. I only need a 159 and a 3.2 to go to harvard?! or wait, maybe its a 4.0/180?...I know: it's got to be somewhere in between--I totally just figured it out, thanks LSN!


First of all, lose the jackass attitude you've got going on. You asked a question and we're trying to help you.

And the reason LSN helps is because not every school looks at applicants the same way. If you are a splitter applying to WUSTL with a 167/3.0, you are probably getting in. They are willing to take just about anyone who meets their LSAT median. But Vanderbilt, on the other hand, is not willing to do so. In order to get in outright with an LSAT right at median (168, IIRC), you have to have a high enough GPA as well. A 168/3.0 is not getting into Vandy as a straight acceptance, and probably not even off the waitlist.

LSN displays the nuances of the admissions process that vary from school to school. A simple glance and WUSTL and Vanderbilt's 25/75 and median numbers would not give you anything more than a very rough estimate as to your chances.

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holydonkey
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Re: Why use LSN?

Postby holydonkey » Sun May 23, 2010 11:21 pm

romothesavior wrote:lose the jackass attitude

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Thomas Jefferson
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Re: Why use LSN?

Postby Thomas Jefferson » Sun May 23, 2010 11:22 pm

holydonkey wrote:
romothesavior wrote:lose the jackass attitude


+1

Although I wouldn't expect much else from someone called "fenway."

fenway
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Re: Why use LSN?

Postby fenway » Sun May 23, 2010 11:23 pm

First of all, lose the jackass attitude you've got going on. You asked a question and we're trying to help you.

And the reason LSN helps is because not every school looks at applicants the same way. If you are a splitter applying to WUSTL with a 167/3.0, you are probably getting in. They are willing to take just about anyone who meets their LSAT median. But Vanderbilt, on the other hand, is not willing to do so. In order to get in outright with an LSAT right at median (168, IIRC), you have to have a high enough GPA as well. A 168/3.0 is not getting into Vandy as a straight acceptance, and probably not even off the waitlist.

LSN displays the nuances of the admissions process that vary from school to school. A simple glance and WUSTL and Vanderbilt's 25/75 and median numbers would not give you anything more than a very rough estimate as to your chances.[/quote]

--you are right, that was not necessary. as a general principle though, why look at either? if you know you'd like to go to a school, then just send in your app and wait for a letter. if you get in and you are looking for scholly, send in an additional essay and then wait for another letter. those are going to be the most accurate predictors of your acceptance/scholly offers to LS (*the letters) Although, LSN does still show some predictive trends that the letters may not account for...

sorry too easy

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romothesavior
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Re: Why use LSN?

Postby romothesavior » Sun May 23, 2010 11:26 pm

Well, I agree with you. Definitely apply no matter what, if that's where you wanna go and you think you've got a shot. But have you been through the application process yet? It really, really helps to alleviate some stress to look at things like LSN and LSP. Also, it can help if you're thinking about doing an ED. If your numbers fall in the "Accept" range, then why waste one? I applied ED to Michigan because I know I was on the edge and I thought an ED might get me over the top.

Also, LSN is good if you're thinking about suing a law school for rejecting you. I'm looking at you sibley...

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Grizz
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Re: Why use LSN?

Postby Grizz » Sun May 23, 2010 11:36 pm

romothesavior wrote:First of all, lose the jackass attitude you've got going on. You asked a question and we're trying to help you.

And the reason LSN helps is because not every school looks at applicants the same way. If you are a splitter applying to WUSTL with a 167/3.0, you are probably getting in. They are willing to take just about anyone who meets their LSAT median. But Vanderbilt, on the other hand, is not willing to do so. In order to get in outright with an LSAT right at median (168, IIRC), you have to have a high enough GPA as well. A 168/3.0 is not getting into Vandy as a straight acceptance, and probably not even off the waitlist.

LSN displays the nuances of the admissions process that vary from school to school. A simple glance and WUSTL and Vanderbilt's 25/75 and median numbers would not give you anything more than a very rough estimate as to your chances.


Right on the money Romo, as usual. Some good stuff about money and acceptances you can gather from the Vandy graph, just for example:

1) People right at medians (168/3.7x) get in. And get money, if they apply before the first wave of $ goes out. (Me and romo are in this category)
2) Not very splitter friendly. Pretty much all the admits have high GPA and LSAT. Acceptances with high LSAT are demonstrably fewer below 3.5/3.6.
3) Some yield protect. High numbers aren't enough in all cases. Do the extra essays, interview, and apply early!

While it's nice to say just apply at whatever schools you want to go to, it's really nice to see these trends to avoid wasting your money and time. For example at Vandy, splitters need not apply; try NU or UVA, ranked higher, or WUSTL, ranked lower. If you do this for enough schools, you can plan your safeties, targets, and reaches.

fenway
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Re: Why use LSN?

Postby fenway » Mon May 24, 2010 7:24 am

rad law wrote:
romothesavior wrote:First of all, lose the jackass attitude you've got going on. You asked a question and we're trying to help you.

And the reason LSN helps is because not every school looks at applicants the same way. If you are a splitter applying to WUSTL with a 167/3.0, you are probably getting in. They are willing to take just about anyone who meets their LSAT median. But Vanderbilt, on the other hand, is not willing to do so. In order to get in outright with an LSAT right at median (168, IIRC), you have to have a high enough GPA as well. A 168/3.0 is not getting into Vandy as a straight acceptance, and probably not even off the waitlist.

LSN displays the nuances of the admissions process that vary from school to school. A simple glance and WUSTL and Vanderbilt's 25/75 and median numbers would not give you anything more than a very rough estimate as to your chances.


Right on the money Romo, as usual. Some good stuff about money and acceptances you can gather from the Vandy graph, just for example:

1) People right at medians (168/3.7x) get in. And get money, if they apply before the first wave of $ goes out. (Me and romo are in this category)
2) Not very splitter friendly. Pretty much all the admits have high GPA and LSAT. Acceptances with high LSAT are demonstrably fewer below 3.5/3.6.
3) Some yield protect. High numbers aren't enough in all cases. Do the extra essays, interview, and apply early!

While it's nice to say just apply at whatever schools you want to go to, it's really nice to see these trends to avoid wasting your money and time. For example at Vandy, splitters need not apply; try NU or UVA, ranked higher, or WUSTL, ranked lower. If you do this for enough schools, you can plan your safeties, targets, and reaches.



I don't know, but something tells me you need a high gpa/lsat for any good school...and you should probably apply early in the cycle...and you should probably do any extra essays/do any interviews that are available. LSN does not ACTUALLY tell you anything any more definitive about your chances than the ranges do--they are just (potentially) listing actual individual app scores...that fall in the range. also, with self-reporting, the data could suck even if someone is trying to be honest. say they had a 150 and a 165. they list a 165. that's not the same as taking it 1x and getting 165. or, say someone transferred after soph yr. they had a 3.0 at A, but now they have a 4.0 at B. I think a decent number of people might feel that their gpa is more accurately reflected by B. im not saying this is always the case, but you don't encounter the same issues with taking an intuitive approach to the ranges (if I have 25% gpa, i probably need about 75% lsat--probably somewhat accurate) i can see the whole thing about "splitter friendly" and w/e, but tracking LSN to prove that is a waste of time. like i said before, its like paying your conscience with monopoly money. if you are stressed out about the admissions process, I'd think the last thing you'd want to do is to go on a website posting acc/rej results for other applications. i mean if going on and seeing a similar match on lsn allows you to sleep at night then by all means, id just think there'd be better ways to assuage some of the distress that comes with the waiting period (get hammered, get laid, get food, get swoll, go to sleep...)

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romothesavior
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Re: Why use LSN?

Postby romothesavior » Mon May 24, 2010 7:47 am

I know very little about stats, but I'd say LSN is a pretty good tool to use. Yes, there will be some self-reporting issues, and yes there will be some self-selection by the higher score kids. Nonetheless, getting 500-600 applicants to report their scores out of a few thousand is definitely significant, and the fact that the patterns seem to match up from year to year indicates that they aren't a bunch of trolls trying to throw things off.

Kobe_Teeth
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Re: Why use LSN?

Postby Kobe_Teeth » Mon May 24, 2010 8:19 am

BTW...I might also add it really helps to figure out what schools you should apply to get $$$. A lot of schools have a certain line either at GPA or LSAT or combo of the two where they start throwing out cash at people. By means of LSN I was able to predict where I was going to get accepted and just how much money I was going to get.

lawschoolstudent85
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Re: Why use LSN?

Postby lawschoolstudent85 » Mon May 24, 2010 8:45 am

,
Last edited by lawschoolstudent85 on Wed Feb 09, 2011 8:01 am, edited 1 time in total.

eLegal
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Re: Why use LSN?

Postby eLegal » Mon May 24, 2010 9:40 am

Plus, if I'm not mistaken, LSAC lists the historical data it has compiled at the end of the last reported admissions cycle (e.g., right now for the class entering in the Fall of 2009). So the grids/data they display is from people who were in the 2008-09 admissions cycle. See below from LSAC website:

Check your qualifications against the admission profiles of the law schools that interest you. Most schools publish a grid that indicates the number of applicants with LSAT scores and GPAs like yours who were admitted in the most recent admission year. This gives you a general sense of your competitiveness at that school. These charts will help you determine which schools are your dream schools, your realistic schools, and your safe schools. If your profile meets or exceeds that of a school, it is likely that that school will be as interested in admitting you as you are in being admitted. Other statistics are contained in the school’s ABA data, so that material should be read with care as well. A few words of caution: First, law schools consider many other factors beyond the LSAT score and GPA, as described in the section Additional Admission Decision Factors, and the grids and data about these credentials only give you part of the story. Second, you should make your final decision about where you will apply only after obtaining additional information from each school. Third, the data in the grids are from a previous application year and may not reflect fluctuations in applicant volume that affect admission decisions.


Admission tracking sites like LSN (and TLS Stats, admissionsdean.com, etc.) not only provide historical info about competitiveness and selectivity when you look back at previous cycles, but they give current applicants a rolling snapshot of admissions trends in the current admissions cycle.

Well LSAC.org doesn't give scholly info for exact number combinations. I find LSN useful for gauging my numbers against similar ones when getting a rough idea of how much I could get. Im sure that its reliable if others in similar range are reporting similar information.


I agree, the scholarship information from any cycle (again assuming it is accurately reported) is also a nice little bonus that these sites offer LSAC.
Last edited by eLegal on Mon May 24, 2010 10:21 am, edited 1 time in total.




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