3.0 LLB grad/175/NY attorney-- T14?

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piccolittle
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3.0 LLB grad/175/NY attorney-- T14?

Postby piccolittle » Mon May 17, 2010 9:40 am

Yes, you're going to ask why I'm applying to law school when I'm already admitted in NY.

I'm American but made the choice to go to university in England, where I studied law. Thinking this was a genius shortcut, I finished my degree there and took the Bar. Of course, there are no jobs, especially for those with only an LLB, and apparently an LLM is useless. My UG GPA isn't so hot, which is unfortunate as it was a law degree, from the number two school in the UK for law and number four overall in the world (not a brag, but maybe it will help my application).

Do you think being already admitted is going to hurt my application? Will a high LSAT make up for this or should I just killself now? I know you're going to say "why bother with law school" but apparently to get any kind of job back here you need to go through the summer recruitment process and of course they won't take an LLB graduate for those things.

WWYD? What are my chances at the T14, in your opinions?
Last edited by piccolittle on Tue May 18, 2010 11:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

shutterbug
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Re: 3.0/175/NY attorney-- T14?

Postby shutterbug » Mon May 17, 2010 9:44 am

piccolittle wrote: I know you're going to say "why bother with law school" but apparently to get any kind of job back here you need to go through the summer recruitment process and of course they won't take an LLB graduate for those things.



Really?

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of Benito Cereno
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Re: 3.0/175/NY attorney-- T14?

Postby of Benito Cereno » Mon May 17, 2010 9:50 am

.,.,.
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CanadianWolf
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Re: 3.0/175/NY attorney-- T14?

Postby CanadianWolf » Mon May 17, 2010 9:53 am

I assume that your "worthless" LLM degree is in comparative law, as opposed to a specialty degree in tax, labor, or patent law. I am not sure that you are eligible to attend an ABA accredited JD program as the LLM degree, even though a master's degree while the JD is a doctorate, is a higher degree than the JD in the US. This seemingly incorrect hierarchy stems from the days when a law degree in the US was a bachelor's degree titled LLB (Bachelor of Laws).
Just reread your initial post and realize now that you do not have an LLM degree.
A score of 175 on the LSAT for an experienced, practicing attorney who is a member of the bar may not be as impressive as an undergraduate student who hasn't yet learned to think like a lawyer.
You best source of information regarding your eligibility status for an US based JD program might be each law school's admissions office. The fact that you are a member of a state bar may also complicate the issue.
However, you may be eligible for an LLM or a SJD program, although most require a JD degree except for an LLM in comparative law which is typically designed for students with a law degree from a foreign country.
Last edited by CanadianWolf on Mon May 17, 2010 10:29 am, edited 3 times in total.

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piccolittle
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Re: 3.0/175/NY attorney-- T14?

Postby piccolittle » Mon May 17, 2010 10:02 am

I'm not a practicing attorney. I earned an undergraduate degree in law in England, which made me eligible to take the NY Bar. Because I don't have a JD, people think I'm underqualified to practice, and because I'm an admitted attorney, it's hard to see the value in continuing with legal education (and I can't get entry-level paralegal jobs).

So for clarity's sake, I just came out of undergrad. I don't have an LLM, but was commenting on the relative merits of the LLM and the JD in the U.S. job market for an LLB graduate.

Most practicing lawyers in England have the LLB and maybe an LLM, but it's tough to get a job in England right now (and I'm American, so would ideally like to come home), so I need to explore my options.

Any feedback?

CanadianWolf
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Re: 3.0/175/NY attorney-- T14?

Postby CanadianWolf » Mon May 17, 2010 10:07 am

Contact US law schools which offer an LLM in comparative law to get information about possible career placement.
Not certain, but I wonder if malpractice insurance at law firms requires a JD degree as well as bar membership. (As an aside, I am currently dealing with a very experienced US based attorney with malpractice issues due to a "motion for sanctions" in a civil case which motion has been pending for over three years.)
Last edited by CanadianWolf on Mon May 17, 2010 10:31 am, edited 2 times in total.

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DavidYurman85
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Re: 3.0/175/NY attorney-- T14?

Postby DavidYurman85 » Mon May 17, 2010 10:12 am

I think you should shoot this question over to an adcomm.

edit: I didn't see that you're already admitted in NY. So, yeah, just ask an adcomm.

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of Benito Cereno
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Re: 3.0/175/NY attorney-- T14?

Postby of Benito Cereno » Mon May 17, 2010 10:14 am

adafasd
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CanadianWolf
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Re: 3.0/175/NY attorney-- T14?

Postby CanadianWolf » Mon May 17, 2010 10:16 am

Don't just apply. That act alone will convey more about you than almost any other aspect of your application. To be blunt, your situation already suffers from a lack of solid research before taking action.
@Benito: He may already have an LLM degree from a US based law school. We need to know what type of LLM as well.
Last edited by CanadianWolf on Mon May 17, 2010 10:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

creatinganalt
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Re: 3.0/175/NY attorney-- T14?

Postby creatinganalt » Mon May 17, 2010 10:17 am

of Benito Cereno wrote:why not apply for an american LLM?


LLMs won't get you a job in the US. They are useless.

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piccolittle
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Re: 3.0/175/NY attorney-- T14?

Postby piccolittle » Mon May 17, 2010 10:21 am

CanadianWolf wrote:Don't just apply. That act alone will convey more about you than almost any other aspect of your application. To be blunt, your situation already suffers from a lack of solid research before taking action.


That's fair. To be honest, my parents saw it as a way to cut corners and hopefully save a little money on education. What a bust.

Would you honestly think it would have been better for me to refrain from taking the Bar, even when I was qualified to take it? Strange that the act of proving I can pass the biggest exam in legal education might prevent me from getting into law school.

Thanks for your input, guys. Any ideas on schools I should be looking at? Don't want to embarrass myself by pestering adcomms at schools way above my league...

Edit: I don't have an LLM. I considered applying for one rather than doing a whole JD, but as I said, I came to the conclusion that they are useless (unless I can somehow transfer into the JD program).
Last edited by piccolittle on Mon May 17, 2010 10:24 am, edited 2 times in total.

waxloaf
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Re: 3.0/175/NY attorney-- T14?

Postby waxloaf » Mon May 17, 2010 10:22 am

CanadianWolf wrote:Don't just apply. That act alone will convey more about you than almost any other aspect of your application. To be blunt, your situation already suffers from a lack of solid research before taking action.
@Benito: He may already have an LLM degree from a US based law school. We need to know what type of LLM as well.


reread his post, he does not have an LLM

CanadianWolf
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Re: 3.0/175/NY attorney-- T14?

Postby CanadianWolf » Mon May 17, 2010 10:27 am

Nothing wrong with taking & passing the New York state bar exam other than potentially being prohibited from attending an ABA accredited JD program--and I could be wrong about that assumption.
Much of your difficulty is that you may be looking for employment opportunities in the wrong places. Government work & opening a solo practice are two options to consider. Perhaps teaching or working for a bar review prep course can help in the near term.

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bk1
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Re: 3.0/175/NY attorney-- T14?

Postby bk1 » Mon May 17, 2010 4:46 pm

Doesn't LSAC not count the GPA's from foreign institutions? If so, then don't you have a shot at pretty much all of the T14 depending merely upon your LSAT?

As for taking the bar. I honestly have no idea. I think that it might look suspicious. The reason being that, the school might have a mindset of "our institution's stated goal is to provide a legal education so our students can pass the bar, thus the student who is applying who has already passed the bar is 'using' our school." Of course I have no proof of this, but I don't think it will help you and it has the chances of hurting you, at least in my mind because then it makes it obvious that you are going to school merely for OCI.

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on_ne_sait_jamais
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Re: 3.0/175/NY attorney-- T14?

Postby on_ne_sait_jamais » Mon May 17, 2010 4:48 pm

None of these people know anything... You can do a 3 year JD, but 2year jd would probably be better i.e. Cheaper... Look at NU

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NayBoer
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Re: 3.0/175/NY attorney-- T14?

Postby NayBoer » Mon May 17, 2010 4:57 pm

I think you need to look into how LSAC will count your GPA, and check out the threads with people from foreign UGs. Also, either start a new thread or edit the title to mention your UK/foreign GPA. That will bring in advice from people who know something on the subject.

You may just be a 175 / no GPA. In which case, apply to all the T14. If it turns out you are 3.0/175 then apply to MVP-NDCG and do binding ED at NYU or Penn.

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FlanAl
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Re: 3.0/175/NY attorney-- T14?

Postby FlanAl » Mon May 17, 2010 4:58 pm

bk1 do you really think schools will look past his performance at UG just because they don't have to report it to USNEWS? not trying to second guess you, i've just been wondering how much numbers matter in these cases since they only have one to go on. it just seems like this would really suck for those who did well but only do mediocre on the lsat.

Also to the OP when you say 3.0 do you mean you got a lower second?

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FlanAl
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Re: 3.0/175/NY attorney-- T14?

Postby FlanAl » Mon May 17, 2010 5:06 pm

also thought i'd refer you to this thread viewtopic.php?f=6&t=110804
it deals with UK grades and what LSAC does to them

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bk1
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Re: 3.0/175/NY attorney-- T14?

Postby bk1 » Mon May 17, 2010 5:17 pm

FlanAl wrote:bk1 do you really think schools will look past his performance at UG just because they don't have to report it to USNEWS? not trying to second guess you, i've just been wondering how much numbers matter in these cases since they only have one to go on. it just seems like this would really suck for those who did well but only do mediocre on the lsat.


I don't know this for a fact, but it seems to be the conventional wisdom on TLS (I think there has been some evidence for it). It logically makes sense so it seems very plausible to me. I would think they look at it, but significantly lower the weight placed on it and increase the weight of the LSAT in regards to LSAT v GPA. I am merely repeating what others usually say, which I felt was relevant here considering nobody had brought it up already.

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rayiner
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Re: 3.0/175/NY attorney-- T14?

Postby rayiner » Mon May 17, 2010 5:27 pm

on_ne_sait_jamais wrote:None of these people know anything... You can do a 3 year JD, but 2year jd would probably be better i.e. Cheaper... Look at NU

sullidop
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Re: 3.0/175/NY attorney-- T14?

Postby sullidop » Mon May 17, 2010 5:34 pm

Get an LLM. Knew a guy that went to LS in Israel, came here, got an LLM and worked for the SEC. Is now a partner in BigLaw.




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