Top Law Schools

tesoro wrote:

lostjake wrote:

quadsixm wrote:

lostjake wrote:Let me speak to the chior. I had a 3.25 GPA with a ME from a fairly well known engineering school. I also got a job traveling the world out of college and it is serious fun. Getting to see things and visit places is a blast. Until you get married, and your wife is wondering if you'll be home in the next three months. The money is great but after you're 27 something the job sucks.

Seriously. The money is nice compared to the low/unpaid jobs that my liberal arts classmates are working at right now. But the job gets old.

When you're doing something like what I'm doing the job doesn't get old, I'm always having to think and it is always a time constraint. I LOVE my job, and if I was still single I would still love to do it. At our company we won't consider someone under a 3. even from MIT. My wife is also an engineer, in the EE field, at her company unless you're a URM they won't consider you unless you have a 3. Also I'm posting this from a hotel room, about 1000 miles from my house, which unfortunately I bought. Word to the wise: rent.

Very cool. And noted, some firms are more "prestigious" than others. GPA does matter a lot in some places. I often wish my job put me on detail anywhere outside of headquarters.

But you need to acknowledge that those with <3.0 GPAs get great jobs. Both as engineers, and as attorneys. As far as engineers go, the curve is understood and does not dagger anybody regardless of where they fall on it.

Full disclosure: I have a 3.5+ GPA. Not trolling for myself. Just for the friends of mine who do not deserve to be judged based on GPA, especially considering where they are in life 2 years post graduation.

I'm going to have to agree with you 100% here, your GPA says little about how good of an engineer you'll be. A lot of engineers with sub 3. are great engineers, the problem seems to be getting their foot in the door. My brother in law, who graduated from the same school that I did said that only 25% of the people from his class got offers. He got two. One was 60k and one was $15/hr. Its pretty rough out there no matter who you are.

PS. As a saturday I've had a couple....

Desert Fox wrote:

romothesavior wrote:Question for DF (or other engineers): Why do they set the curve so low? I personally think curve-grading is a very good way to grade, but why not set the curve higher so that you engineer people aren't getting f*cked when you decide to switch over to LS or something else? They could keep the tests insanely hard, but just set it so that the average grades look more like the average grades of liberal arts students or something.

It seems like you guys are getting screwed for taking a major that would destroy most of the people on TLS.

I guess they aren't concerned with those of us going to law school. I'm the only engineer from Illinois that I know personally going to law school. I'm sure there are more, but not a significant portion.

Engineering and science masters programs all know that engineering isn't grade inflated.

+1, I think its still rare enough that it isn't a concern. I know of 3 other people that want to do patent law at Georgia Tech. (One graduated this year and two will finish next year)

Desert Fox wrote:

lostjake wrote:I was speaking to your advice in general. And also, an engineer with a power concentration will have no idea whats going on in a complex circuit design. To say otherwise is pretty misleading, like your comment about going to a TTT with an EE degree and being able to find a job. Even the patent companies aren't hiring right now unless you have experience or a T1 degree.

My EE program had no formal concentrations, and I went to Illinois. There were unofficial concentrations, but they don't go on your transcript. Even if you took mostly power elective courses, you had to take circuitry courses.

Also, my EE program had no formal concentrations (Computer Engineering notwithstanding) but it is pretty easy to see where someone's focus is based on their transcript.

lostjake wrote:

Desert Fox wrote:

lostjake wrote:

romothesavior wrote:Question for DF (or other engineers): Why do they set the curve so low? I personally think curve-grading is a very good way to grade, but why not set the curve higher so that you engineer people aren't getting f*cked when you decide to switch over to LS or something else? They could keep the tests insanely hard, but just set it so that the average grades look more like the average grades of liberal arts students or something.

It seems like you guys are getting screwed for taking a major that would destroy most of the people on TLS.

C is supposed to be an average grade, the real question is why is grade inflation everywhere in LA colleges? Answer?! Because they can't find jobs and GPA matters in getting into graduate studies. As an engineer a 3. was/is the magical number. With it you can find a job paying over 50k a year, without it you're in the LA food stamp line.

I'm not sure why you keep saying that. A full 40% of my class has under 3.0, and we all do fine. It will however keep you out of good engineering firms and prestigious companies.

I make over 50. But I also have a degree from a good school. I have no idea what it's like from a no name school. But there are plenty of small company app engineer jobs that need to get filled.

I'm not really up to date the on the college rankings for engineering schools so I don't know where your school is. I'm somewhat planning to apply to some law school in the future so I don't want to out myself, but I came from a top engineering school and 3. is the cut off. I graduated in 2005 with a 3.2x and had a couple of offers, the highest being 70k. Last year I reported 200k to the IRS. My wife makes 90k a year. For some reason she wants me to quit my job and make 70k a year and she will stay at home with the kids. Just because she's an engineer doesn't mean she knows anything.

And I'm telling you, I graduated from the University of Illinois in '08, had a 2.8 and make 60K. Your prospects do get worse, but its not feast or famine like you portray. A lot of companies wouldn't hire me, others aren't too concerned. In fact I don't think my employer ever asked my GPA.

Desert Fox wrote:

lostjake wrote: I'm not really up to date the on the college rankings for engineering schools so I don't know where your school is. I'm somewhat planning to apply to some law school in the future so I don't want to out myself, but I came from a top engineering school and 3. is the cut off. I graduated in 2005 with a 3.2x and had a couple of offers, the highest being 70k. Last year I reported 200k to the IRS. My wife makes 90k a year. For some reason she wants me to quit my job and make 70k a year and she will stay at home with the kids. Just because she's an engineer doesn't mean she knows anything.

And I'm telling you, I graduated from the University of Illinois in '08, had a 2.8 and make 60K. Your prospects do get worse, but its not feast or famine like you portray. A lot of companies wouldn't hire me, others aren't too concerned. In fact I don't think my employer ever asked my GPA.

[redacted, need to not post while drinking].

And I'm telling you, I graduated from the University of Illinois in '08, had a 2.8 and make 60K. Your prospects do get worse, but its not feast or famine like you portray. A lot of companies wouldn't hire me, others aren't too concerned. In fact I don't think my employer ever asked my GPA.
Ok. Lets break down!

1. Did they ask for a transcript? If they did they have your GPA?
2. Why are you applying to law school? Are you working pretty shitty hours? 60k a year, to many on this board at least, is a lot of Bens, but to a lot of engineering majors 60 isn't that much if you're working 50 hours a week
3. What state are you employed in, and what exactly are you doing

As I'm sure you know, many on this board are confused as to what engineering majors do after they get their 40k piece of paper.

tesoro wrote:

Desert Fox wrote:

lostjake wrote: I'm not really up to date the on the college rankings for engineering schools so I don't know where your school is. I'm somewhat planning to apply to some law school in the future so I don't want to out myself, but I came from a top engineering school and 3. is the cut off. I graduated in 2005 with a 3.2x and had a couple of offers, the highest being 70k. Last year I reported 200k to the IRS. My wife makes 90k a year. For some reason she wants me to quit my job and make 70k a year and she will stay at home with the kids. Just because she's an engineer doesn't mean she knows anything.

And I'm telling you, I graduated from the University of Illinois in '08, had a 2.8 and make 60K. Your prospects do get worse, but its not feast or famine like you portray. A lot of companies wouldn't hire me, others aren't too concerned. In fact I don't think my employer ever asked my GPA.

Just to add to the anecdotes, I graduated from a TTT engineering school in 2008 (ranked 50-100 overall). Yeah I had a 3.5, but that only put me in the top third of my engineering class. 2009 was my first full year out of college and i reported over 90k to the IRS (not at a name brand engineering company). Will report well over 100k this year. base >85k. TTT does not matter. Engineering is a whole different breed from law.

Very different from law. What exactly you do as an engineer will tell how much you make. I'll out myself here (somewhat?)! I graduated with a degree in ME and am currently the top electromagnetic surveying engineer in the northeast. I have to travel quite a bit and do a lot of phone calls at 4am.

What do you all do?

lostjake wrote:

tesoro wrote:

Desert Fox wrote:

lostjake wrote: I'm not really up to date the on the college rankings for engineering schools so I don't know where your school is. I'm somewhat planning to apply to some law school in the future so I don't want to out myself, but I came from a top engineering school and 3. is the cut off. I graduated in 2005 with a 3.2x and had a couple of offers, the highest being 70k. Last year I reported 200k to the IRS. My wife makes 90k a year. For some reason she wants me to quit my job and make 70k a year and she will stay at home with the kids. Just because she's an engineer doesn't mean she knows anything.

And I'm telling you, I graduated from the University of Illinois in '08, had a 2.8 and make 60K. Your prospects do get worse, but its not feast or famine like you portray. A lot of companies wouldn't hire me, others aren't too concerned. In fact I don't think my employer ever asked my GPA.

Just to add to the anecdotes, I graduated from a TTT engineering school in 2008 (ranked 50-100 overall). Yeah I had a 3.5, but that only put me in the top third of my engineering class. 2009 was my first full year out of college and i reported over 90k to the IRS (not at a name brand engineering company). Will report well over 100k this year. base >85k. TTT does not matter. Engineering is a whole different breed from law.

Very different from law. What exactly you as an engineer will tell how much you make. I'll out myself here (somewhat?)! I graduated with a degree in ME and am currently the top electromagnetic surveying engineer in the northeast. I have to travel quite a bit and do a lot of phone calls at 4am.

What do you all do?

I'll PM you if you promise not to repeat it on a public forum.

I travel never and sleep often.

I am intersted in what do you, but I'm more so intersted in why engineering majors want to go to law school. Desert Fox says he makes 60+, which is pretty good. You had a GPA over 3.5, and I want to get out because I spend too much time away from home. So whats your story?

lostjake wrote:And I'm telling you, I graduated from the University of Illinois in '08, had a 2.8 and make 60K. Your prospects do get worse, but its not feast or famine like you portray. A lot of companies wouldn't hire me, others aren't too concerned. In fact I don't think my employer ever asked my GPA.
Ok. Lets break down!

1. Did they ask for a transcript? If they did they have your GPA?
2. Why are you applying to law school? Are you working pretty shitty hours? 60k a year, to many on this board at least, is a lot of Bens, but to a lot of engineering majors 60 isn't that much if you're working 50 hours a week
3. What state are you employed in, and what exactly are you doing

As I'm sure you know, many on this board are confused as to what engineering majors do after they get their 40k piece of paper.

1)No transcript.
2)60K isn't a lot of money, and I don't like engineering. I work about 45. I could make a boring career doing what I do but I'll never make what you do, unless I switch fields.
3) Illinois, so 60K isn't amazing. I can't say what I do out of fear of being outted.

There are ton of places that hire engineers that aren't concerned with getting the best.

lostjake wrote:I am intersted in what do you, but I'm more so intersted in why engineering majors want to go to law school. Desert Fox says he makes 60+, which is pretty good. You had a GPA over 3.5, and I want to get out because I spend too much time away from home. So whats your story?

Oh OK. Yes I get what you're saying.

As a freshman, I entered engineering knowing full well that I would never enter the profession. I was just good at math and physics and hated the humanities in high school. I knew the degree was versatile. Looking back, if I had to do it all over again I would choose EE once over. It was the easiest way to get through college.

Wall Street was the expected outcome, but as a 2008 graduate, this seemed overly irresponsible and risky, and I didn't want to pigeonhole myself in a potential dying or soon-to-be-overregulated profession. I turned down a position in the financial district in NYC out of prudence, despite it being the dream, and went to something more secure that paid enough. It's not directly an "engineering" job, but uses my education. I learned a lot about patent law.

There's money in licensing and litigation. My job barely challenges me and allows me to easily balance it and a demanding part-time law degree. So why not? I'm single and bored. I have the cash to pay for the degree. If I find that the positions available arent worth the hours demanded when I graduate, that's fine. I got an education. I could also continue to work my current lucrative but lax job and open my own venture simultaneously if I felt like it post-graduation.

I suspect my reasons for going into law are unique. What are your motives? Surely you chose law over lateraling to a position close to home for some certain reason?

I envy you. If you can get into a PT program with you experience you'll be doing good. I want to get into law school because it always somewhat interested me and I won't find a job like that otherwise. Good luck!

lostjake wrote:

tesoro wrote:

lostjake wrote:I'm not really too concerned but do you get what I'm saying? Engineers are a lot like BigLaw or shitlaw, the hours you work and the things you are working on is on how well you're paid. I am interested on why us engineers want to go to law school. I've always had somewhat of an interest from high school, and it seems most engineering jobs without travel pay under 120k, What about you guys?

Oh OK. Yes I get what you're saying.

As a freshman, I entered engineering knowing full well that I would never enter the profession. I was just good at math and physics and hated the humanities in high school. I knew the degree was versatile. Looking back, if I had to do it all over again I would choose EE once over. It was the easiest way to get through college.

Wall Street was the expected outcome, but as a 2008 graduate, this seemed overly irresponsible and risky, and I didn't want to pigeonhole myself in a potential dying or soon-to-be-overregulated profession. I turned down a position in the financial district in NYC out of prudence, despite it being the dream, and went to something more secure that paid enough. It's not directly an "engineering" job, but uses my education. I learned a lot about patent law.

There's money in licensing and litigation. My job barely challenges me and allows me to easily balance it and a demanding part-time law degree. So why not? I'm single and bored. I have the cash to pay for the degree. If I find that the positions available arent worth the hours demanded when I graduate, that's fine. I got an education. I could also continue to work my current lucrative but lax job and open my own venture simultaneously if I felt like it post-graduation.

I suspect my reasons for going into law are unique. What are your motives?

Sir, I envy you. First if I was making 70k with no SO/wife I would jump on law school. I'm sure as an engineering major you could PAWN the LSAT and get almost a full ride, plus with your patent experience you'll probably land a job once you graduate.

What motivates me? My wife is pregnant and is seriously getting on my case about being home more often. Its pretty hard as a man to go from being the best at what you are to average 70k TTT-ness.

Heh. I took a semi-relaxed approach to LSAT study. Did well enough to get offered a full-ride, but turned it down to go to a T1 program at sticker (Fordham). I could take it more seriously and retake/defer, but I'm dogheaded about (1) continuing to work my current job and (2) moving to NYC, so the only gain would be for a slight scholarship from a notoriously stingy school. Would not give up my job to attend T5. The experience is too relevant and pays too much.

The grass is always greener though. You don't need to envy me. You make a goldmine and are obviously great at what you do. So the envy is two-way, because I may not make it at the end of the day, and you already have. Be proud of what you've done.

lostjake wrote:

tesoro wrote:

lostjake wrote:I'm not really too concerned but do you get what I'm saying? Engineers are a lot like BigLaw or shitlaw, the hours you work and the things you are working on is on how well you're paid. I am interested on why us engineers want to go to law school. I've always had somewhat of an interest from high school, and it seems most engineering jobs without travel pay under 120k, What about you guys?

Oh OK. Yes I get what you're saying.

As a freshman, I entered engineering knowing full well that I would never enter the profession. I was just good at math and physics and hated the humanities in high school. I knew the degree was versatile. Looking back, if I had to do it all over again I would choose EE once over. It was the easiest way to get through college.

Wall Street was the expected outcome, but as a 2008 graduate, this seemed overly irresponsible and risky, and I didn't want to pigeonhole myself in a potential dying or soon-to-be-overregulated profession. I turned down a position in the financial district in NYC out of prudence, despite it being the dream, and went to something more secure that paid enough. It's not directly an "engineering" job, but uses my education. I learned a lot about patent law.

There's money in licensing and litigation. My job barely challenges me and allows me to easily balance it and a demanding part-time law degree. So why not? I'm single and bored. I have the cash to pay for the degree. If I find that the positions available arent worth the hours demanded when I graduate, that's fine. I got an education. I could also continue to work my current lucrative but lax job and open my own venture simultaneously if I felt like it post-graduation.

I suspect my reasons for going into law are unique. What are your motives?

Sir, I envy you. First if I was making 70k with no SO/wife I would jump on law school. I'm sure as an engineering major you could PAWN the LSAT and get almost a full ride, plus with your patent experience you'll probably land a job once you graduate.

What motivates me? My wife is pregnant and is seriously getting on my case about being home more often. Its pretty hard as a man to go from being the best at what you are to average 70k TTT-ness.

Where'd you get this number from? A job offer close to home? Is your wife open to moving? I'm sure with your expertise you could get a job in a semi-related field for 150k+. If you're accomplished in one field, it seems to me that an engineering firm should immediately recognize the value. I worked at a firm where the CEO shuffled his managers around to head departments they'd never worked at before. For example, the head of operations was moved to head of technology. Gains were made in most departments. You probably already did, but you should try to sell yourself to non-oil related firms and see what happens. Law school may not be necessary...

In either case, good luck. Family isn't trivial. Friends arent trivial. This is where most of our happiness is derived from. So even if you do ultimately have to take a paycut to 70k, you're still doing pretty damn good and your wife is, and children will be, worth it.

lawyerhopefull wrote:I'd assume engineering is harder than liberal arts or HR but still why grade on a curve for that at all? You either build shitty stuff or you don't. You wouldnt want a doctor graded on the curve in your body, why makeing the vehicle that you baby daughter might die in on the way to daycare due to poor engineering?

Clearly U havent taken any engineering classes. Tests are Insanely hard, there is so much information relevant for any tests. And I want to change my Major because I will kill myself If i have to do this for living.

Seriously, Guys If I want get into schools like Penn State, Miami, Florida, or LSU, with my 2.5 GPA what LSAT score I should aim for, Two of my prof have already wrote a recommendation letter for me, I will start working on personal statement in June-July. My achilles heel is my GPA but I am doing electrical engineering, which by the way is a mistake.
I have bought books relevant for my studies, and once I am done with my Final, I plan to study of LSAT all summer, without any distraction. I have seen some Law school prediction site like
http://lawschoolcalculator.com, http://www.lawschoolpredictor.com/wp-co ... ograms.htm
by the way how accurate are these sites.

cwest131 wrote:Seriously, Guys If I want get into schools like Penn State, Miami, Florida, or LSU, with my 2.5 GPA what LSAT score I should aim for, Two of my prof have already wrote a recommendation letter for me, I will start working on personal statement in June-July. My achilles heel is my GPA but I am doing electrical engineering, which by the way is a mistake.
I have bought books relevant for my studies, and once I am done with my Final, I plan to study of LSAT all summer, without any distraction. I have seen some Law school prediction site like
http://lawschoolcalculator.com, http://www.lawschoolpredictor.com/wp-co ... ograms.htm
by the way how accurate are these sites.

Get as high as you possibly can. Seriously, if someone said all you need is a 170, would that change your study habits from if somebody told you that you needed at 167? Being a splitter makes it hard to predict cycle. Just do as best as you can on the LSAT, it is that simple.

I was under the impression that once you start law school, all that matters is the program you are in and your GPA when it comes to hiring. Are you saying that your undergrad degree matters in hiring for IP jobs? Is it only IP jobs or does it have value for other positions as well if you had something like a 3.6 in your EE undergrad program?

greg11a wrote:I was under the impression that once you start law school, all that matters is the program you are in and your GPA when it comes to hiring. Are you saying that your undergrad degree matters in hiring for IP jobs? Is it only IP jobs or does it have value for other positions as well if you had something like a 3.6 in your EE undergrad program?

Yes your undergrad matters for patent law, because you need to be an engineer or scientist as well as a lawyer.

Some firms focus very much on undergrad/work, and others don't focus on it much, other than the fact you have a degree in engineering, etc, and instead focus on law school grades.

cwest131 wrote:Seriously, Guys If I want get into schools like Penn State, Miami, Florida, or LSU, with my 2.5 GPA what LSAT score I should aim for, Two of my prof have already wrote a recommendation letter for me, I will start working on personal statement in June-July. My achilles heel is my GPA but I am doing electrical engineering, which by the way is a mistake.
I have bought books relevant for my studies, and once I am done with my Final, I plan to study of LSAT all summer, without any distraction. I have seen some Law school prediction site like
http://lawschoolcalculator.com, http://www.lawschoolpredictor.com/wp-co ... ograms.htm
by the way how accurate are these sites.

a 2.5 is very low. you would need to break 170 for sure. probably 175.

teabag wrote:

cwest131 wrote:Seriously, Guys If I want get into schools like Penn State, Miami, Florida, or LSU, with my 2.5 GPA what LSAT score I should aim for, Two of my prof have already wrote a recommendation letter for me, I will start working on personal statement in June-July. My achilles heel is my GPA but I am doing electrical engineering, which by the way is a mistake.
I have bought books relevant for my studies, and once I am done with my Final, I plan to study of LSAT all summer, without any distraction. I have seen some Law school prediction site like
http://lawschoolcalculator.com, http://www.lawschoolpredictor.com/wp-co ... ograms.htm
by the way how accurate are these sites.

a 2.5 is very low. you would need to break 170 for sure. probably 175.

haha, for penn state and miami? give me a break. 175 will get you t30 with a 2.5.