(Reapplying) Another what LSAT would I need...

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bk1
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(Reapplying) Another what LSAT would I need...

Postby bk1 » Fri Apr 23, 2010 9:01 pm

I am retaking the LSAT and reapplying next cycle.

My current stats are: URM(Puerto Rican/Mexican)/2.85/166(Dec '09).

I was really hasty with my applications in general, applied at the end of January, barely studied for the LSAT, etc. Thus I only got into T2's and lower T1's at sticker. I generally excel at standardized tests and truly feel I can get a 172+. Ideally I would like to get into a T14 (obvious) and thus I want to maximize my chances at getting into one. I feel that the retake will give me the best shot, or at least get me into a T20. I am going to submit all my apps as soon as they are available and ED to one of the T14.

I sent apps this cycle to T14's and of course got rejected. If I improve my LSAT, do you think these former rejections will hurt my reapp? (Astute observers will realize I asked this question in another thread but I felt that because both this post and the other are very different that I might get a better response in one of the threads.)

What LSAT would I need to have a decent shot at the T14 (most likely the lower half of course)? Will I have a shot via regular admission or will ED be my only realistic chance?

Depending on my LSAT, where should I aim my ED? My thoughts would be that NU, UVA, or Georgetown are the best bets for maximizing my chances, what do you guys think?

I hear that NU likes work experience and that if I work for 2+ years that would be a substantial boost. If I were to apply at be in the incoming class of 2012 instead of 2011 (and thus have 1-1.5 years of work experience at the time of the ED application in Nov/Dec 2011) would this give me a substantial boost enough to justify taking 2 years off instead of 1?
Last edited by bk1 on Fri Apr 23, 2010 9:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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thinkbig
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Re: (Reapplying) Another what LSAT would I need...

Postby thinkbig » Fri Apr 23, 2010 9:06 pm

Your GPA might be problematic for NU (or any T14), but you might still have a shot given your URM status and if you applied ED. If you truly got a 166 on the LSAT without any study or PTs, you should have no problem working at it and getting into the 170s. I'd say you should shoot for at least a 175 to have any hope of a T14, which seems doable if you study hard and considering your first blush was a 166. That would be the biggest boost of all. Good luck.
Last edited by thinkbig on Fri Apr 23, 2010 9:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PDaddy
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Re: (Reapplying) Another what LSAT would I need...

Postby PDaddy » Fri Apr 23, 2010 9:07 pm

You don't "need" another LSAT. Your grades suck, true, but your LSAT is solid enough to get you into top programs. T14 is a crapshoot. You might hit the lower third, and forget Berkeley. BTW, your bragging about "barely studying" and getting a 166 comes off as disingenuous. You and I both know that most of the people here and elsewhere would kill to have your score, especially URM's. You should delete that remark from your post. (BTW, I am a 160+ scorer too, so not hatin' on you).

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bk1
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Re: (Reapplying) Another what LSAT would I need...

Postby bk1 » Fri Apr 23, 2010 9:20 pm

PDaddy wrote:You don't "need" another LSAT. Your grades suck, true, but your LSAT is solid enough to get you into top programs. T14 is a crapshoot. You might hit the lower third, and forget Berkeley. BTW, your bragging about "barely studying" and getting a 166 comes off as disingenuous. You and I both know that most of the people here and elsewhere would kill to have your score, especially URM's. You should delete that remark from your post. (BTW, I am a 160+ scorer too, so not hatin' on you).


Noted and done to your last comment.

Being from and having originally wanted to attend UC I know how GPA-focused UC law schools are, but it really doesn't seem to me like a 166/2.85/URM has that great of a chance. Of course I will be retaking the LSAT even if my current score gives me a decent shot, but why do you think that those scores have a decent shot? Am I just underestimating how much a curveball URM status is?

creatinganalt
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Re: (Reapplying) Another what LSAT would I need...

Postby creatinganalt » Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:27 am

Ignore PDaddy and retake. Being a URM doesn't mean not trying and relying on your race - I think that's an appalling attitude. If you know you can improve, why not do so? You'll still get a boost but will be in a better position.

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bk1
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Re: (Reapplying) Another what LSAT would I need...

Postby bk1 » Sat Apr 24, 2010 12:13 pm

creatinganalt wrote:Ignore PDaddy and retake. Being a URM doesn't mean not trying and relying on your race - I think that's an appalling attitude. If you know you can improve, why not do so? You'll still get a boost but will be in a better position.


Of course I am going to retake, that is without a doubt. Anything I can do to make up for the blight upon my app that is my GPA I will.

Any other thoughts on what LSAT I would need for to get a realistic shot at a T14 and where I should ED to?

creatinganalt
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Re: (Reapplying) Another what LSAT would I need...

Postby creatinganalt » Sat Apr 24, 2010 12:25 pm

I think you'd find search lsn for URMs with your numbers you'll get a rounded picture. With a low 170s score, an AA would be in at a t14. With a mid 170s, non URM is probably good for NW, right? NW, GT and UVa are still your best bets I think.

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bk1
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Re: (Reapplying) Another what LSAT would I need...

Postby bk1 » Sat Apr 24, 2010 12:55 pm

creatinganalt wrote:I think you'd find search lsn for URMs with your numbers you'll get a rounded picture. With a low 170s score, an AA would be in at a t14. With a mid 170s, non URM is probably good for NW, right? NW, GT and UVa are still your best bets I think.


I have, but it is such a narrow number of people that it is hard to get a good feeling of whether it is representative or not.

Yeah I was thinking NW/GT/UVA are the best options for ED. I prefer NW out of the 3 but would rather ED to one of the others if it gave me a significantly better chance.

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Re: (Reapplying) Another what LSAT would I need...

Postby CanadianWolf » Sat Apr 24, 2010 1:56 pm

A score of 166 on the LSAT is impressive, but may not be enough for a top 12 if you are seeking merit scholarship money. I think that you should retake the LSAT for two main reasons:
1) You are going to do it regardless of outsiders thoughts & , if you don't, you will regret it as you are convinced that you can do much better.
2) Assuming a higher score, you will have much better chances of admission to top 12 law schools with merit aid.
The real issue, however, is how high a score do you need to make a retake worthwhile in terms of increasing admission & scholarship chances. My best guess is that you will need a 170 or slightly higher as a 167, 168 or 169 might be viewed as expected improvement for a retester with an initial score of 166.

creatinganalt
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Re: (Reapplying) Another what LSAT would I need...

Postby creatinganalt » Sat Apr 24, 2010 2:01 pm

bk1 wrote:
creatinganalt wrote:I think you'd find search lsn for URMs with your numbers you'll get a rounded picture. With a low 170s score, an AA would be in at a t14. With a mid 170s, non URM is probably good for NW, right? NW, GT and UVa are still your best bets I think.


I have, but it is such a narrow number of people that it is hard to get a good feeling of whether it is representative or not.

Yeah I was thinking NW/GT/UVA are the best options for ED. I prefer NW out of the 3 but would rather ED to one of the others if it gave me a significantly better chance.


I think you've got splitter friendly schools def. The whole ED at UVa thing is a bit of a TLS obsession but YMMV. It honestly would depend on your retake. A non URM with a 2.8/175 is prob in at NW ED so obviously the higher you get, the higher you can aim. I'd think NYU is the most splitter friendly of the T6.

By the way, even a points difference makes a difference with the LSAT. Seriously, take a look at UVa results for a 169 and a 170.

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Re: (Reapplying) Another what LSAT would I need...

Postby CanadianWolf » Sat Apr 24, 2010 2:13 pm

@creatinganalt:
I think that you miss the point of the OP's post when you write that even one point makes a difference for admission referring to admissions results for a 169 versus a 170 for a particular law school. Your example is relevant only if the same person retook the LSAT with those scores & received different admissions decisions from that same law school.
Ask any law school admissions dean & the most common response that you will receive will be that there needs to be at least a 3 or 4 point difference to matter. Some law schools will average, in which case a one point increase is meaningless.
But I do agree that a one time LSAT test taker scoring a 170 has a better chance than one scoring a 169 assuming that all other admissions factors are equal.

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Re: (Reapplying) Another what LSAT would I need...

Postby creatinganalt » Sat Apr 24, 2010 2:35 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:@creatinganalt:
I think that you miss the point of the OP's post when you write that even one point makes a difference for admission referring to admissions results for a 169 versus a 170 for a particular law school. Your example is relevant only if the same person retook the LSAT with those scores & received different admissions decisions from that same law school.
Ask any law school admissions dean & the most common response that you will receive will be that there needs to be at least a 3 or 4 point difference to matter. Some law schools will average, in which case a one point increase is meaningless.
But I do agree that a one time LSAT test taker scoring a 170 has a better chance than one scoring a 169 assuming that all other admissions factors are equal.

Ummm. Which law schools even average anymore? None that the OP is going for. This is what happens when something sounds reasonable so becomes received wisdom on the board. It makes sense to believe that admissions committees need a 3 - 4 point boost but from the very small number of people who've actually been in this situation on TLS since the new averaging policy came into place, it's not shown to be the case.

Let's break down your objection: you know that statistically there is basically no difference between a 169 and a 170 and the Deans know this. The only difference is where it plays re UVa's median/25/75. There is no difference in their 'potential', for all intents and purposes they are the same score. So you believe the adcoms evaluate applicants so holistically that they treat applicants with statistically identical scores (169 v 1170) dramatically differently BUT feel that an applicant who retakes a 169 to a 170... is somehow an undesirable candidate? Ok.

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Re: (Reapplying) Another what LSAT would I need...

Postby CanadianWolf » Sat Apr 24, 2010 2:50 pm

@creatinganalt:
I am confused by your above post. Sorry, but I miss your point (and I think that you miss my points as well as the OP's concerns).
With respect to which law schools average, just read the law school profiles on TOP-LAW-SCHOOLS.com. Don't take my word for it, read it from the source.

creatinganalt
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Re: (Reapplying) Another what LSAT would I need...

Postby creatinganalt » Sat Apr 24, 2010 4:01 pm

The profiles also say that they evaluate admissions holistically and evaluate all other things as well as GPA/LSAT. They deny the existence of a URM boost. In other words, it's not true. Don't just believe what you are told - spend 3 cycles tracking LSN for actual results - HYS average, maybe. No one else in the t14 averages and H is unclear either way.

Your underlying point seems to be that ad comms need to see substantial change otherwise the higher result is not seen as indicating a greater potential in the applicant if they only increase one point. My point is the one point that separates a 169 and a 170 applicant is statistically insignificant in terms of ability (which is why the LSAT band is 3 points). Adcoms at UVa know this and this still treat the 169 and 170 v differently. They are making a decision about medians not about potential. So your argument has no legs, essentially.

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Re: (Reapplying) Another what LSAT would I need...

Postby bk1 » Sun Apr 25, 2010 3:13 am

creatinganalt wrote:I think you've got splitter friendly schools def. The whole ED at UVa thing is a bit of a TLS obsession but YMMV. It honestly would depend on your retake. A non URM with a 2.8/175 is prob in at NW ED so obviously the higher you get, the higher you can aim. I'd think NYU is the most splitter friendly of the T6.

By the way, even a points difference makes a difference with the LSAT. Seriously, take a look at UVa results for a 169 and a 170.


It seems to me, that because you can ED at UVA at any point (you just submit your app and at any point prior to March 1 I think you can send in the ED paperwork to make it binding), wouldn't it be best to ED somewhere else, i.e. NW, and then if rejected in December to turn the UVA app into a binding ED at that point? Or does ED'ing to UVA that late negate any sort of advantage it might have?

Also, about NW, any thoughts on chances without work experience (other than the few months between this June and the start of the cycle)? For me of course, which would be URM/2.85/172+ (obviously the LSAT is dependent upon my retake).

creatinganalt
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Re: (Reapplying) Another what LSAT would I need...

Postby creatinganalt » Sun Apr 25, 2010 4:11 am

bk1 wrote:
creatinganalt wrote:I think you've got splitter friendly schools def. The whole ED at UVa thing is a bit of a TLS obsession but YMMV. It honestly would depend on your retake. A non URM with a 2.8/175 is prob in at NW ED so obviously the higher you get, the higher you can aim. I'd think NYU is the most splitter friendly of the T6.

By the way, even a points difference makes a difference with the LSAT. Seriously, take a look at UVa results for a 169 and a 170.


It seems to me, that because you can ED at UVA at any point (you just submit your app and at any point prior to March 1 I think you can send in the ED paperwork to make it binding), wouldn't it be best to ED somewhere else, i.e. NW, and then if rejected in December to turn the UVA app into a binding ED at that point? Or does ED'ing to UVA that late negate any sort of advantage it might have?

Also, about NW, any thoughts on chances without work experience (other than the few months between this June and the start of the cycle)? For me of course, which would be URM/2.85/172+ (obviously the LSAT is dependent upon my retake).


Sorry that wasn't clear - I meant that the continuous advice to ED to UVa on TLS is almost out of control. I agree - Don't bother EDing there until you've put in some apps in other places. EDing late should still be fine. I'm not sure about NW boost for URMS. I have a gut feeling that you'd probably be in at GT/Cornell with those numbers but without WE, NW might mess you around a bit though you'd eventually get in.




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