Top Law Schools

It makes you a terrible job candidate because employers only care about your numbers and the prestige of your law school. Those who graduate from a TTT and finish at the median will not get a very good job. I struck out at OCI and I go to a top school. I know I interview pretty well. Why didn't I get a SA Biglaw gig? Because I am around the median. If you don't like the law school numbers game, find another profession. I was lucky enough to get hooked up with a local lawyer who is going to teach me the ropes. Is it going to help me pay off my huge debt right away? Probably not. But the fact is that I go to a top school and could only get an average gig through a connection. Busting your ass and only having a 3.4 to show doesn't paint a bright picture for someone entering a TTT law school.

Columbia Law wrote:Busting your ass and only having a 3.4 to show doesn't paint a bright picture for someone entering a TTT law school.

To be fair, if the 3.4 was in engineering or something similar, that would be solid. That's probably not the case though since it hasn't come out yet.

Also, I don't think a 3.4 is lousy (it's better than mine, but I definitely admit mine stinks), but it's not impressive either.

Stringer Bell wrote:

Columbia Law wrote:Busting your ass and only having a 3.4 to show doesn't paint a bright picture for someone entering a TTT law school.

To be fair, if the 3.4 was in engineering or something similar, that would be solid. That's probably not the case though since it hasn't come out yet.

True, but unfortunately eagles 86 doesn't have a 3.4. A 2.98 is a much lower GPA, and I don't think he's being realistic about that.

The easiest way for him to remedy the GPA problem is to retake the LSAT. A 163 would probably get him into every school on his list, with the possible exception of American.

Columbia Law wrote:It makes you a terrible job candidate because employers only care about your numbers and the prestige of your law school. Those who graduate from a TTT and finish at the median will not get a very good job. I struck out at OCI and I go to a top school. I know I interview pretty well. Why didn't I get a SA Biglaw gig? Because I am around the median. If you don't like the law school numbers game, find another profession. I was lucky enough to get hooked up with a local lawyer who is going to teach me the ropes. Is it going to help me pay off my huge debt right away? Probably not. But the fact is that I go to a top school and could only get an average gig through a connection. Busting your ass and only having a 3.4 to show doesn't paint a bright picture for someone entering a TTT law school.

I am sure you're a great interviewer! You wouldn't love to hire someone as uplifting as you lol!

beach_terror wrote:

eagles86 wrote:So its nice to know that my life is over by not being T-14 material. You guys are worthless, bye bye

I wouldn't be surprised if you bombed the reading comp on your LSAT.

Kinda like how you said Columbia didn't call a 3.4 a toilet GPA, when in fact he did?

eagles86 wrote:I dont call 3.4 a toilet GPA...and i think a few here would agree. Sometimes I wonder how folks like you act in person.

But you don't have a 3.4. You have a 2.98. Please please please retake and get a 160+. It will change your life. I'm not asking you to go T-14 (I'm not going T-14), but law school and post-law school employment is largely a number/prestige game, so a retake will change your life.

The only piece of good advice on this entire thread is RETAKE THE LSAT. Think about it this way: if you retake the LSAT and get a 165+ you´ll be looking at a full ride to many of the schools on your list. Given this $100,000 incentive, you should have no problem dedicating a year to studying. If you honestly can not score above a 160, which I doubt, I would reconsider law school.

[quote="lawschooliseasy"]The only piece of good advice on this entire thread is RETAKE THE LSAT. Think about it this way: if you retake the LSAT and get a 165+ you´ll be looking at a full ride to many of the schools on your list. Given this $100,000 incentive, you should have no problem dedicating a year to studying. If you honestly can not score above a 160, which I doubt, I would reconsider law school.[/quote

+1.

$160 investment for $100,000 return? Easy choice.

I am retaking in June but I'll see what happens before. Are you honestly recommending that I spend my entire time not working at all and studying for this? I did that back in November and scored 160-164 on practice but sadly only 159 on the real thing.

I should add that I read some schools consider GPA a bit differently if there is a major disparity. My difference btwn the worst year and second worst year are an entire 1.2 grade points! My LSAT is above the median at Miami, Newark and at it with Denver. Even so, I might as well retake in June when I wont be half awake like the last time.

eagles86 wrote:I am retaking in June but I'll see what happens before. Are you honestly recommending that I spend my entire time not working at all and studying for this? I did that back in November and scored 160-164 on practice but sadly only 159 on the real thing.

I worked full-time and studied. I didn't have much fun, can be done.

Yeah, I know schools consider GPA differently, but the 2.98 is what the USNWR people see when they create the rankings, which schools care deeply about. It's just not a good situation all around.

Oh i know its not ideal, but for schools that accept close to a thousand applicants, 2.98 wont dramatically alter the 25th percentile. Basically im hoping that I can squeeze in somewhere, whether its being accepted now or more likely off a waitlist this summer.

eagles86 wrote:Oh i know its not ideal, but for schools that accept close to a thousand applicants, 2.98 wont dramatically alter the 25th percentile. Basically im hoping that I can squeeze in somewhere, whether its being accepted now or more likely off a waitlist this summer.

I would also bet you can squeeze into one of those places, but you probably will not get any scholarship money. If just for the potential of more money, I would retake.

There's a lot of hyperbole and generalizations on this thread. A lot of schools simply want you to be above one or the other medians, especially when it comes to the LSAT. Being below 25th percentile GPA really depends on which school you are applying to. It's not necessarily true that this means you have to be above 75th %ile with the LSAT; in fact, simply being above median at a lot of schools will get you in.

With that said, always retake. LSAC gives you three chances to get the highest LSAT score you possibly can. Scoring even 2-3 points higher will be enormous for you in terms of scholarships and opportunities. That's tens of thousands of dollars of free money sitting out there waiting for you -- begging you to take it. It's almost a crime not to try all three times at the LSAT if you are not getting the score you think you can get. I have a similar GPA to you, and my first LSAT was 158. I retook in December and got a 162, which was still below where I was practicing. I'm retaking again in two days because...why not? If I raise my score just two points on Saturday, I'll be in really good shape. I doubt it's going to go much lower, because my PTs were all in the upper 160s and I was incredibly nervous for both tests (probably because I knew because of my GPA I really couldn't mess this test up).

Because of my retake, I have a very good shot at some upper T2 schools and even potentially a lower T1 where I qualify as in-state. Go retake in June, and if you get 5 points higher, wait it out a year and apply ED somewhere. You don't want to go to a mediocre law school in this economic environment.

rad law wrote:

eagles86 wrote:Oh i know its not ideal, but for schools that accept close to a thousand applicants, 2.98 wont dramatically alter the 25th percentile. Basically im hoping that I can squeeze in somewhere, whether its being accepted now or more likely off a waitlist this summer.

I would also bet you can squeeze into one of those places, but you probably will not get any scholarship money. If just for the potential of more money, I would retake.

I couldn't agree more. I'm just not a good standardized test taker so I really dont know how much above 160 I can go. I started cold at 144 before I got to 159. I'm only 23 so waiting another year really isn't a big deal for me.

eagles86 wrote:

rad law wrote:

eagles86 wrote:Oh i know its not ideal, but for schools that accept close to a thousand applicants, 2.98 wont dramatically alter the 25th percentile. Basically im hoping that I can squeeze in somewhere, whether its being accepted now or more likely off a waitlist this summer.

I would also bet you can squeeze into one of those places, but you probably will not get any scholarship money. If just for the potential of more money, I would retake.

I couldn't agree more. I'm just not a good standardized test taker so I really dont know how much above 160 I can go. I started cold at 144 before I got to 159. I'm only 23 so waiting another year really isn't a big deal for me.

Do yourself a huge favor. Go out and get a job for a few years. Work Experience will make schools more likely to forgive your GPA. You can also take some time off and go back to the LSAT -- I would suggest combining the TLS methods in the LSAT forum and also get a tutor with a strong reputation in your area (if you are working you should be able to afford it at the time but make sure you get references!). You need to find out where your weaknesses are and work on those areas. Since you are 23, you have plenty of time on your side.

(BTW, my GPA is also crap with 5 years WE and so far my cycle has gone exactly how the numbers predicted; acceptances at 2 schools where I have an LSAT above the 75th, a WL where I have a median/below 25th split, and a bunch of nothing from schools who are probably waiting for my FebLSAT before they decide on admit/WL/ding)

eagles86 wrote:I think the fact that I got this anywhere near 3 after my 2.1 freshman year should count for something. I explained this in an addendum and my personal statement, recs are very good imo. LSP is more pessimsitic for schools below 40...if 30% of applicants are below you in terms of numbers it classifies you as auto- reject. 30% is still way too high for the deny label.

Dude I started out with a .21 after my freshman year, and got it up to a 2.4 and they don't give a flying crap.

It's your LSAC GPA and your LSAT, if you have cool softs, you'll get nothing to a little boost. Period.

You'll prob get into 1 of those schools and waitlisted at 2-3 of them, the rest rejections.

jks289 wrote:

eagles86 wrote:I think the fact that I got this anywhere near 3 after my 2.1 freshman year should count for something. I explained this in an addendum and my personal statement, recs are very good imo. LSP is more pessimsitic for schools below 40...if 30% of applicants are below you in terms of numbers it classifies you as auto- reject. 30% is still way too high for the deny label.

Fair enough. Though I think the safe rule is "below both medians = out." Below 25th on either, and not above 75% on the other = out. Assuming you are below the 25% GPA of all of those schools (I didn't check but I think they all hit 3.0) then you'll need to be above their 75% LSAT.

And I had the same rationale about the 30% meaning deny thing. But I have a fat stack of t14 rejections saying "I told you so." You seem intent on applying, so I think just go for it. What have you got to lose but some app fees?

Not true at all. I have gotten into schools where I was prob bottom 2-3 percent GPA and median LSAT.

Overall, I would prefer to practice in central jersey (Princeton/Somerville/ New Brunswick) and maybe go into politics at some point. Wouldnt Rutgers- Newark be the most logical choice anyway? If I got into RU and Seton Hall I wouldnt choose Seton unless they gave me major $$, and RUs in state tuition is quite reasonable.

eagles86 wrote:Overall, I would prefer to practice in central jersey (Princeton/Somerville/ New Brunswick) and maybe go into politics at some point. Wouldnt Rutgers- Newark be the most logical choice anyway? If I got into RU and Seton Hall I wouldnt choose Seton unless they gave me major $$, and RUs in state tuition is quite reasonable.

If that is the area you want, try both the Camden and Newark PT programs and don't apply anywhere else.

Why part time? A few still in undergrad with worse numbers than me have got into Newark

jks289 wrote:Fair enough. Though I think the safe rule is "below both medians = out." Below 25th on either, and not above 75% on the other = out. Assuming you are below the 25% GPA of all of those schools (I didn't check but I think they all hit 3.0) then you'll need to be above their 75% LSAT.

That's an interesting rule. I had never heard that before. Does it matter how above or below the 25th or 75th % you are? Like if you are significantly below the GPA line, do you then need to be significantly above the LSAT line, or should just being above the 75% suffice? I imagine it will vary by schools as well

My GPA isnt that far away from the 25th at a few of my targets. Yes, I know American, Villanova are major reaches, and Im only applying to American bc connections there could give me a chance of catching a hail mary pass lol. The T-20 generally have that rule in terms of 25/75 but the Tier 2 schools vary a lot ( at least according to what i see on LSN).

Columbia Law wrote:It makes you a terrible job candidate because employers only care about your numbers and the prestige of your law school. Those who graduate from a TTT and finish at the median will not get a very good job. I struck out at OCI and I go to a top school. I know I interview pretty well. Why didn't I get a SA Biglaw gig? Because I am around the median. If you don't like the law school numbers game, find another profession. I was lucky enough to get hooked up with a local lawyer who is going to teach me the ropes. Is it going to help me pay off my huge debt right away? Probably not. But the fact is that I go to a top school and could only get an average gig through a connection. Busting your ass and only having a 3.4 to show doesn't paint a bright picture for someone entering a TTT law school.

This shows that some ppl who get into top schools are simply going to be bad lawyers...

PoliticalJunkie wrote:This shows that some ppl who get into top schools are simply going to be bad lawyers...

+1