help me get into my reach

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webbylu87
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help me get into my reach

Postby webbylu87 » Fri Jan 15, 2010 11:26 am

At the moment, my first choice is WUSTL. I have a 163 and no GPA. I know the odds of acceptance for a non-URM with my numbers is pretty low so needless to say, I'm busting my buttocks to get in. I've already sewn up a solid back-up so I understand my efforts may end up for nothing but I'm okay with that.

I've visited the school and met with someone in admissions. However, finals were going on so I couldn't sit down with a member of the admissions committee specifically and I couldn't take an official tour. I'll be down in STL at the end of the month, is it worth it to request a tour this time around and to try to meet with a member of the adcom?

Any other ideas to help me get in?

09042014
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Re: help me get into my reach

Postby 09042014 » Fri Jan 15, 2010 11:30 am

webbylu87 wrote:At the moment, my first choice is WUSTL. I have a 163 and no GPA. I know the odds of acceptance for a non-URM with my numbers is pretty low so needless to say, I'm busting my buttocks to get in. I've already sewn up a solid back-up so I understand my efforts may end up for nothing but I'm okay with that.

I've visited the school and met with someone in admissions. However, finals were going on so I couldn't sit down with a member of the admissions committee specifically and I couldn't take an official tour. I'll be down in STL at the end of the month, is it worth it to request a tour this time around and to try to meet with a member of the adcom?

Any other ideas to help me get in?


Retake the LSAT. WUSTL is a number whore, but it doesn't even matter. Even holistic schools take very few people below median (and since you have no GPA, you are below median in the only category that matters for you).

You've got no shot until you get 166 at least.

I think you can still sign up for February? Do it, succeed and thank me later for being a pessimistic asshole.

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webbylu87
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Re: help me get into my reach

Postby webbylu87 » Fri Jan 15, 2010 11:39 am

unfortunately, i don't have the time or money to do the february LSAT. i've already taken it twice. i understand your pessimism though. i'm by no means optimistic. obviously that would be easiest road, but i can't go there so enough said on that. short of retaking the LSAT, any ideas?

my background is a bit unique i suppose so i'm hoping that might help (as everyone always does). if anybody feels like giving me some in-depth advice if they've gotten in with worse numbers or just want to be nice, PM me and i can give you a better picture of my creds without totally outing myself.

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devilishangelrjp
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Re: help me get into my reach

Postby devilishangelrjp » Fri Jan 15, 2010 11:49 am

webbylu87 wrote:unfortunately, i don't have the time or money to do the february LSAT. i've already taken it twice. i understand your pessimism though. i'm by no means optimistic. obviously that would be easiest road, but i can't go there so enough said on that. short of retaking the LSAT, any ideas?

my background is a bit unique i suppose so i'm hoping that might help (as everyone always does). if anybody feels like giving me some in-depth advice if they've gotten in with worse numbers or just want to be nice, PM me and i can give you a better picture of my creds without totally outing myself.


You've got to convince them that despite that score, which is presentable but not what they want, that they should accept you and that in fact, they would be missing out on something big if they didn't accept you. You add something special to the XX law school class of 2013, and you have to tap into that. You've gotta sell yourself. The score might not sell you, so you have to kill the personal statement, the recommendations, the resume if they want one, and pretty much anything else. That's the attitude and approach that is gonna get you accepted into your reach schools.

But you've got to do it fast, because the longer you wait, the more your chances decrease. Time is money, as they say.

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Kiersten1985
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Re: help me get into my reach

Postby Kiersten1985 » Fri Jan 15, 2010 11:53 am

Wait - how don't you have a GPA? Are you international?

09042014
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Re: help me get into my reach

Postby 09042014 » Fri Jan 15, 2010 11:55 am

webbylu87 wrote:unfortunately, i don't have the time or money to do the february LSAT. i've already taken it twice. i understand your pessimism though. i'm by no means optimistic. obviously that would be easiest road, but i can't go there so enough said on that. short of retaking the LSAT, any ideas?

my background is a bit unique i suppose so i'm hoping that might help (as everyone always does). if anybody feels like giving me some in-depth advice if they've gotten in with worse numbers or just want to be nice, PM me and i can give you a better picture of my creds without totally outing myself.


If you want WUSTL you need to make the time and find the money. You won't get in even if you blow the adcom. Nobody on LSN gets in below median, nobody.

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webbylu87
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Re: help me get into my reach

Postby webbylu87 » Fri Jan 15, 2010 11:59 am

devilishangelrjp wrote:You've got to convince them that despite that score, which is presentable but not what they want, that they should accept you and that in fact, they would be missing out on something big if they didn't accept you. You add something special to the XX law school class of 2013, and you have to tap into that. You've gotta sell yourself. The score might not sell you, so you have to kill the personal statement, the recommendations, the resume if they want one, and pretty much anything else. That's the attitude and approach that is gonna get you accepted into your reach schools.

But you've got to do it fast, because the longer you wait, the more your chances decrease. Time is money, as they say.


Absolutely. I've already been in contact with a professor who runs the clinic and journal that have drawn me to the school. They have offered to put me in touch with with the current editor and talk to me next week. Obviously while I'm in STL I plan on stopping in at Admissions and to see this professor. I'm thinking of writing an LOCI to submit next week. I submitted a strongly worded "Why WUSTL?" essay with my app and I feel like my LOR and PS were pretty strong. Hell, they got me money at Illinois and a WL at UMN so I feel like with some consistent effort WUSTL is obtainable, albeit it will be an uphill battle.

tesoro
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Re: help me get into my reach

Postby tesoro » Fri Jan 15, 2010 12:00 pm

Check out LSN for WUSTL last year. Your odds with a 163 are 0.0001%. Notice the right angle. WUSTL admits high GPAs, high LSATs, or a combination of both. When I say high, I mean 167+ and 3.7+, neither of which you have.

If you have the money to visit WUSTL later this winter, I advise you to spend it on retaking the LSAT. WUSTL does not admit students holistically. They whore the USNWR rankings, instead. Why? It's more profitable. With no GPA, you will not be safe with anything less than a 167 GPA. You may score a waitlist with a 166 (if you're lucky).

Sorry to be harsh, this is reality. This is coming from someone with higher numbers than yours and 0 shot at WUSTL. I'm a bit surprised TLS has been providing you with misguided optimism.
Last edited by tesoro on Fri Jan 15, 2010 12:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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webbylu87
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Re: help me get into my reach

Postby webbylu87 » Fri Jan 15, 2010 12:00 pm

Kiersten1985 wrote:Wait - how don't you have a GPA? Are you international?


I'm from the Midwest but I did my undergrad abroad.

I appreciate all the advice, even the pessimistic. The problem with predicting where I fall in the applicant pool is because of my lack of GPA and overseas education. There was no guidance regarding the LSAT or law school admissions at my overseas school so I took the LSAT without realizing the importance or difficulty of the test. Not an excuse for a low score to be fair, but certainly an explanation.

I spoke to a WUSTL rep at a law school forum and explained my situation. I was told that with a lower LSAT my lack of a GPA may actually help because they have no low GPA to report along with a lower LSAT.

gitls
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Re: help me get into my reach

Postby gitls » Fri Jan 15, 2010 12:11 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
webbylu87 wrote:At the moment, my first choice is WUSTL. I have a 163 and no GPA. I know the odds of acceptance for a non-URM with my numbers is pretty low so needless to say, I'm busting my buttocks to get in. I've already sewn up a solid back-up so I understand my efforts may end up for nothing but I'm okay with that.

I've visited the school and met with someone in admissions. However, finals were going on so I couldn't sit down with a member of the admissions committee specifically and I couldn't take an official tour. I'll be down in STL at the end of the month, is it worth it to request a tour this time around and to try to meet with a member of the adcom?

Any other ideas to help me get in?


Retake the LSAT. WUSTL is a number whore, but it doesn't even matter. Even holistic schools take very few people below median (and since you have no GPA, you are below median in the only category that matters for you).

You've got no shot until you get 166 at least.

I think you can still sign up for February? Do it, succeed and thank me later for being a pessimistic asshole.


I don't understand this nonsense. Half of the schools' 1L class is below median and half of the class is above median! That's the definition of median.

tesoro
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Re: help me get into my reach

Postby tesoro » Fri Jan 15, 2010 12:18 pm

gitls wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
webbylu87 wrote:At the moment, my first choice is WUSTL. I have a 163 and no GPA. I know the odds of acceptance for a non-URM with my numbers is pretty low so needless to say, I'm busting my buttocks to get in. I've already sewn up a solid back-up so I understand my efforts may end up for nothing but I'm okay with that.

I've visited the school and met with someone in admissions. However, finals were going on so I couldn't sit down with a member of the admissions committee specifically and I couldn't take an official tour. I'll be down in STL at the end of the month, is it worth it to request a tour this time around and to try to meet with a member of the adcom?

Any other ideas to help me get in?


Retake the LSAT. WUSTL is a number whore, but it doesn't even matter. Even holistic schools take very few people below median (and since you have no GPA, you are below median in the only category that matters for you).

You've got no shot until you get 166 at least.

I think you can still sign up for February? Do it, succeed and thank me later for being a pessimistic asshole.


I don't understand this nonsense. Half of the schools' 1L class is below median and half of the class is above median! That's the definition of median.


It's very easy to understand. Imagine this scenario: Assume that the GPA median is 3.7. Also assume that the LSAT median is 167. Assume 100 students are admitted.

49 students have a 168 or higher, and a 3.5 or lower.
45 students have a 3.8 or higher, and a 166 or lower.
3 students have a 167/3.7
1 student has a 162/3.2

Median = 167/3.7.

WUSTL whores the numbers by accepting inordinate amounts of splitters (High LSAT/low GPA or vice versa). I can only find one instance on the 2008-2009 cycle where a non-splitter below the medians was accepted and wasn't a URM.

edit: just to emphasize, schools like WUSTL prey upon people who have a weak grasp of mathematics and/or statistics. You're being fooled into forking over an expensive application fee. Open your eyes.
Last edited by tesoro on Fri Jan 15, 2010 12:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

dk8
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Re: help me get into my reach

Postby dk8 » Fri Jan 15, 2010 12:21 pm

webbylu87 wrote:
Kiersten1985 wrote:Wait - how don't you have a GPA? Are you international?


I'm from the Midwest but I did my undergrad abroad.

I appreciate all the advice, even the pessimistic. The problem with predicting where I fall in the applicant pool is because of my lack of GPA and overseas education. There was no guidance regarding the LSAT or law school admissions at my overseas school so I took the LSAT without realizing the importance or difficulty of the test. Not an excuse for a low score to be fair, but certainly an explanation.

I spoke to a WUSTL rep at a law school forum and explained my situation. I was told that with a lower LSAT my lack of a GPA may actually help because they have no low GPA to report along with a lower LSAT.


This is even more of a reason for you to retake the LSAT. If the 163 was indicative of your full potential, I'd understand your hesitance to retake. The bottom line is, the best possible thing you can do to help your chances is to score higher on the test, and if you didn't prepare enough the first time, you should be able to do it.

09042014
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Re: help me get into my reach

Postby 09042014 » Fri Jan 15, 2010 12:27 pm

gitls wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
webbylu87 wrote:At the moment, my first choice is WUSTL. I have a 163 and no GPA. I know the odds of acceptance for a non-URM with my numbers is pretty low so needless to say, I'm busting my buttocks to get in. I've already sewn up a solid back-up so I understand my efforts may end up for nothing but I'm okay with that.

I've visited the school and met with someone in admissions. However, finals were going on so I couldn't sit down with a member of the admissions committee specifically and I couldn't take an official tour. I'll be down in STL at the end of the month, is it worth it to request a tour this time around and to try to meet with a member of the adcom?

Any other ideas to help me get in?


Retake the LSAT. WUSTL is a number whore, but it doesn't even matter. Even holistic schools take very few people below median (and since you have no GPA, you are below median in the only category that matters for you).

You've got no shot until you get 166 at least.

I think you can still sign up for February? Do it, succeed and thank me later for being a pessimistic asshole.


I don't understand this nonsense. Half of the schools' 1L class is below median and half of the class is above median! That's the definition of median.


Sorry, I meant below media in both numbers. Since he has no GPA, he only has one median. 50% of students are at or below the LSAT median, but almost all are at or above the GPA median. A 3.5 165 has no shot at WUSTL, while a 3.3 167 is in.

09042014
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Re: help me get into my reach

Postby 09042014 » Fri Jan 15, 2010 12:30 pm

webbylu87 wrote:
Kiersten1985 wrote:Wait - how don't you have a GPA? Are you international?


I'm from the Midwest but I did my undergrad abroad.

I appreciate all the advice, even the pessimistic. The problem with predicting where I fall in the applicant pool is because of my lack of GPA and overseas education. There was no guidance regarding the LSAT or law school admissions at my overseas school so I took the LSAT without realizing the importance or difficulty of the test. Not an excuse for a low score to be fair, but certainly an explanation.

I spoke to a WUSTL rep at a law school forum and explained my situation. I was told that with a lower LSAT my lack of a GPA may actually help because they have no low GPA to report along with a lower LSAT.


If you scored 163 with minimal prep, you will score MUCH better with prep. Sign up for the June LSAT, ace it, and get a huge scholarship for WUSTL (or got to NU or Chicago).

In fact throw WUSTL an app now, but start studying for June. If you by some miracle get in, just cancel the June test and be happy. But when you get rejected you'll be able to retake and get in next fall.

You've got no chance.

gitls
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Re: help me get into my reach

Postby gitls » Fri Jan 15, 2010 12:33 pm

tesoro wrote:
gitls wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
webbylu87 wrote:At the moment, my first choice is WUSTL. I have a 163 and no GPA. I know the odds of acceptance for a non-URM with my numbers is pretty low so needless to say, I'm busting my buttocks to get in. I've already sewn up a solid back-up so I understand my efforts may end up for nothing but I'm okay with that.

I've visited the school and met with someone in admissions. However, finals were going on so I couldn't sit down with a member of the admissions committee specifically and I couldn't take an official tour. I'll be down in STL at the end of the month, is it worth it to request a tour this time around and to try to meet with a member of the adcom?

Any other ideas to help me get in?


Retake the LSAT. WUSTL is a number whore, but it doesn't even matter. Even holistic schools take very few people below median (and since you have no GPA, you are below median in the only category that matters for you).

You've got no shot until you get 166 at least.

I think you can still sign up for February? Do it, succeed and thank me later for being a pessimistic asshole.


I don't understand this nonsense. Half of the schools' 1L class is below median and half of the class is above median! That's the definition of median.


It's very easy to understand. Imagine this scenario: Assume that the GPA median is 3.7. Also assume that the LSAT median is 167. Assume 100 students are admitted.

49 students have a 168 or higher, and a 3.5 or lower.
45 students have a 3.8 or higher, and a 166 or lower.
3 students have a 167/3.7
1 student has a 162/3.2

Median = 167/3.7.

WUSTL whores the numbers by accepting inordinate amounts of splitters (High LSAT/low GPA or vice versa). I can only find one instance on the 2008-2009 cycle where a non-splitter below the medians was accepted and wasn't a URM.

edit: just to emphasize, schools like WUSTL prey upon people who have a weak grasp of mathematics and/or statistics. You're being fooled into forking over an expensive application fee. Open your eyes.


I understand what you are saying if the student is below both medians. However, what basis do you have for equating no GPA with below median GPA? You are assuming that the student is the same as your 1 student with a 162/3.2. Without a GPA, the school doesn't have to factor anything for this student into the median GPA it calculates. Obviously, not having a GPA is not the same thing as having a GPA that is about the median (i.e., this student reflects zero opportunity to raise the median, but is no risk to the current median).

tesoro
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Re: help me get into my reach

Postby tesoro » Fri Jan 15, 2010 12:37 pm

gitls wrote:
I understand what you are saying if the student is below both medians. However, what basis do you have for equating no GPA with below median GPA? You are assuming that the student is the same as your 1 student with a 162/3.2. Without a GPA, the school doesn't have to factor anything for this student into the median GPA it calculates. Obviously, not having a GPA is not the same thing as having a GPA that is about the median (i.e., this student reflects zero opportunity to raise the median, but is no risk to the current median).


Having no GPA means you don't help or hurt the school. Having an LSAT below the median (actually, significantly below the median) hurts the school. Therefore, OP would only stand to definitively hurt the school. Someone with a 163/3.8 offers a boost to their median GPA. Someone with 163/no GPA hurts, and only hurts, the statistics. Therefore, it should be clear to see that having a GPA that is about median and a low LSAT is far more beneficial to WUSTL than is having no GPA and a low LSAT.

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webbylu87
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Re: help me get into my reach

Postby webbylu87 » Fri Jan 15, 2010 12:40 pm

tesoro wrote:
gitls wrote:
I understand what you are saying if the student is below both medians. However, what basis do you have for equating no GPA with below median GPA? You are assuming that the student is the same as your 1 student with a 162/3.2. Without a GPA, the school doesn't have to factor anything for this student into the median GPA it calculates. Obviously, not having a GPA is not the same thing as having a GPA that is about the median (i.e., this student reflects zero opportunity to raise the median, but is no risk to the current median).


Having no GPA means you don't help or hurt the school. Having an LSAT below the median (actually, significantly below the median) hurts the school. Therefore, OP would only stand to definitively hurt the school. Someone with a 163/3.8 offers a boost to their median GPA. Someone with 163/no GPA hurts, and only hurts, the statistics. Therefore, it should be clear to see that having a GPA that is about median and a low LSAT is far more beneficial to WUSTL than is having no GPA and a low LSAT.


I see both viewpoints, however as I stated before, when I spoke to a WUSTL rep they took an opinion more in the line with gitls. That said, the GPA issue appears to be negated. The only real question is whether or not they want to take a 163. I think it's important to remember that they do in fact take 163s so it's not that my 163 would be unlikely. The question is whether or not they want to take MY 163. That is what I'm trying to convince them to do.

tesoro
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Re: help me get into my reach

Postby tesoro » Fri Jan 15, 2010 12:41 pm

webbylu87 wrote:
tesoro wrote:
gitls wrote:
I understand what you are saying if the student is below both medians. However, what basis do you have for equating no GPA with below median GPA? You are assuming that the student is the same as your 1 student with a 162/3.2. Without a GPA, the school doesn't have to factor anything for this student into the median GPA it calculates. Obviously, not having a GPA is not the same thing as having a GPA that is about the median (i.e., this student reflects zero opportunity to raise the median, but is no risk to the current median).


Having no GPA means you don't help or hurt the school. Having an LSAT below the median (actually, significantly below the median) hurts the school. Therefore, OP would only stand to definitively hurt the school. Someone with a 163/3.8 offers a boost to their median GPA. Someone with 163/no GPA hurts, and only hurts, the statistics. Therefore, it should be clear to see that having a GPA that is about median and a low LSAT is far more beneficial to WUSTL than is having no GPA and a low LSAT.


I see both viewpoints, however as I stated before, when I spoke to a WUSTL rep they took an opinion more in the line with gitls. That said, the GPA issue appears to be negated. The only real question is whether or not they want to take a 163. I think it's important to remember that they do in fact take 163s so it's not that my 163 would be unlikely. The question is whether or not they want to take MY 163. That is what I'm trying to convince them to do.


They want your $80.

Ask Yale if you should apply. They'll say yes. I'm done here - do what you want. Good luck.

e: they take 163s who also have 3.75+. They also take 163s who are URMs. Source: LSN.

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webbylu87
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Re: help me get into my reach

Postby webbylu87 » Fri Jan 15, 2010 12:43 pm

Also, can we move beyond the discussion of how unlikely it is that I'll get in? I've already acknowledged that and I've already stated that I cannot retake the LSAT. At this point, such a discussion is futile and pointless. What I'm asking is whether or not given my circumstances which will not change, is there anything I can do to increase my chances even though they are a long shot?

09042014
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Re: help me get into my reach

Postby 09042014 » Fri Jan 15, 2010 12:45 pm

webbylu87 wrote:Also, can we move beyond the discussion of how unlikely it is that I'll get in? I've already acknowledged that and I've already stated that I cannot retake the LSAT. At this point, such a discussion is futile and pointless. What I'm asking is whether or not given my circumstances which will not change, is there anything I can do to increase my chances even though they are a long shot?


Have you graduated college yet? If not take a one hour online course (from a school in America) get an A so you have a 4.0 GPA to report.

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webbylu87
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Re: help me get into my reach

Postby webbylu87 » Fri Jan 15, 2010 12:48 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
webbylu87 wrote:Also, can we move beyond the discussion of how unlikely it is that I'll get in? I've already acknowledged that and I've already stated that I cannot retake the LSAT. At this point, such a discussion is futile and pointless. What I'm asking is whether or not given my circumstances which will not change, is there anything I can do to increase my chances even though they are a long shot?


Have you graduated college yet? If not take a one hour online course (from a school in America) get an A so you have a 4.0 GPA to report.


I have, unfortunately. I'm currently working for a civil rights organization.

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missvik218
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Re: help me get into my reach

Postby missvik218 » Fri Jan 15, 2010 12:54 pm

webbylu87 wrote:Also, can we move beyond the discussion of how unlikely it is that I'll get in? I've already acknowledged that and I've already stated that I cannot retake the LSAT. At this point, such a discussion is futile and pointless. What I'm asking is whether or not given my circumstances which will not change, is there anything I can do to increase my chances even though they are a long shot?

I'm sorry Webby, if THAT discussion is futile and pointless, then so is this entire thread. A higher LSAT score is the best and only real way for you to increase your chances. Short of that you can do all of the secondary stuff, write "Why X" letters, addenda, visit, interview ... but a higher LSAT is what you need to get into WUSTL.

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Richie Tenenbaum
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Re: help me get into my reach

Postby Richie Tenenbaum » Fri Jan 15, 2010 12:57 pm

Since you say retaking in February is out, then hope and pray you are able to land on the WL. Then retake in June, get a 167, and get accepted.




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