About to dye my hair pink?

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A. Nony Mouse

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Re: About to dye my hair pink?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Thu Jan 11, 2018 2:24 pm

Yes, I should have clarified that when I say conservative in this context I meant sartorially, not politically. (I’ve also seen a story floating around about a blind judge who used to make his clerks tell him if the women appearing before him were wearing skirts and he didn’t like it if they weren’t.)

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Re: About to dye my hair pink?

Postby mcmand » Thu Jan 11, 2018 3:05 pm

Can we have a #TimesUp campaign for this kind of bullshit appearance-policing that women in the law put up with? Because when I've observed it (I'm a dude, so haven't experienced it directed at me), it seems almost always hand-in-hand with some other bullshit sexism, like what I saw in moot court/mock trial in law school. First night, judges say to the women competing: "You're too aggressive! Wow! Tone it down! Nobody likes that!" Second night: "So soft spoken, get fired up and go on the attack!"
Last edited by mcmand on Mon Jan 29, 2018 2:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: About to dye my hair pink?

Postby cuzzydunlop » Thu Jan 11, 2018 3:46 pm

mcmand wrote:Can we have a #TimesUp campaign for this kind of bullshit appearance-policing that women in the law put up with? Because when I've observed it (I'm a dude, so haven't experienced it directed at me), it seems almost always hand-in-hand with some other bullshit sexism, like what I saw in moot court/mock trial in law school. First night, judges say to the women competing: "You're too aggressive! Wow! Tone it down! Nobody likes that!" Second night: "So soft spoken, get fired up and go on the attack!"


Men face appearance-policing too. I have to shave every day and show up to work in a suit in tie. Female coworkers have significantly more leeway in what they can wear to work. Me - I'm sweating balls on the subway all summer long.

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Re: About to dye my hair pink?

Postby mcmand » Thu Jan 11, 2018 4:00 pm

cuzzydunlop wrote:
mcmand wrote:Can we have a #TimesUp campaign for this kind of bullshit appearance-policing that women in the law put up with? Because when I've observed it (I'm a dude, so haven't experienced it directed at me), it seems almost always hand-in-hand with some other bullshit sexism, like what I saw in moot court/mock trial in law school. First night, judges say to the women competing: "You're too aggressive! Wow! Tone it down! Nobody likes that!" Second night: "So soft spoken, get fired up and go on the attack!"


Men face appearance-policing too. I have to shave every day and show up to work in a suit in tie. Female coworkers have significantly more leeway in what they can wear to work. Me - I'm sweating balls on the subway all summer long.


:roll: I can't tell if you're joking or if you're serious, but either way it's not worth me picking apart all the ways that this is not comparable to what women have to put up with in terms of having their clothing and bodies criticized and weaponized against them in the workplace.
Last edited by mcmand on Mon Jan 29, 2018 2:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: About to dye my hair pink?

Postby sparkytrainer » Thu Jan 11, 2018 5:32 pm

mcmand wrote:
cuzzydunlop wrote:
mcmand wrote:Can we have a #TimesUp campaign for this kind of bullshit appearance-policing that women in the law put up with? Because when I've observed it (I'm a dude, so haven't experienced it directed at me), it seems almost always hand-in-hand with some other bullshit sexism, like what I saw in moot court/mock trial in law school. First night, judges say to the women competing: "You're too aggressive! Wow! Tone it down! Nobody likes that!" Second night: "So soft spoken, get fired up and go on the attack!"


Men face appearance-policing too. I have to shave every day and show up to work in a suit in tie. Female coworkers have significantly more leeway in what they can wear to work. Me - I'm sweating balls on the subway all summer long.


:roll: I can't tell if you're joking or if you're serious, but either way it's not worth me picking apart all the ways that this is not comparable to what women have to put up with in terms of having their clothing and bodies criticized and weaponized against them in the workplace.


Women might get it more, but it does happen to men. For example, the beard thing I pointed out earlier. That is an issue generally only men have to deal with in the workplace. Not equivocating the two, just pointing out men and women BOTH face appearance policing in the legal field. One might be degrees worse than another, but both sexes deal with these problems.

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Re: About to dye my hair pink?

Postby saltshaker » Thu Jan 11, 2018 10:14 pm

sparkytrainer wrote:
mcmand wrote:
cuzzydunlop wrote:
mcmand wrote:Can we have a #TimesUp campaign for this kind of bullshit appearance-policing that women in the law put up with? Because when I've observed it (I'm a dude, so haven't experienced it directed at me), it seems almost always hand-in-hand with some other bullshit sexism, like what I saw in moot court/mock trial in law school. First night, judges say to the women competing: "You're too aggressive! Wow! Tone it down! Nobody likes that!" Second night: "So soft spoken, get fired up and go on the attack!"


Men face appearance-policing too. I have to shave every day and show up to work in a suit in tie. Female coworkers have significantly more leeway in what they can wear to work. Me - I'm sweating balls on the subway all summer long.


:roll: I can't tell if you're joking or if you're serious, but either way it's not worth me picking apart all the ways that this is not comparable to what women have to put up with in terms of having their clothing and bodies criticized and weaponized against them in the workplace.


Women might get it more, but it does happen to men. For example, the beard thing I pointed out earlier. That is an issue generally only men have to deal with in the workplace. Not equivocating the two, just pointing out men and women BOTH face appearance policing in the legal field. One might be degrees worse than another, but both sexes deal with these problems.



Please. You just said women have "significantly more" leeway in what they can wear to work.

Men do not have to spend 45 minutes putting on makeup to present well in a professional setting. Men do not need to shave their legs just to wear pantyhose underneath their skirts - lest they be chastised as I once was by a legal clerk who pointed out she could see some of my leg hair through my black hose. Men's professional shoes are made with comfort in mind while there are scores of women who are still encouraged to wear heels to the courtroom in 2018. Men do not have to be coached on their voice (too high, too low) so that they can be taken (more) seriously. Many men wear beards to work. God forbid a woman show up to her job with noticeable hair around her mustache area. Hell, many men don't even realize most women have mustache hair because we habitually shave it off before anyone can notice.

Appearance policing affects both genders, sure. But that's not a novel statement. And I hope you don't mean to insinuate that just because women have the choice between pants or skirts (or flats or heels, or whatever else) while men are restricted to a suit and tie is in anyway indicative of the "leeway" you suggest women have in way of their appearance in the legal workplace.

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Re: About to dye my hair pink?

Postby mcmand » Thu Jan 11, 2018 10:32 pm

sparkytrainer wrote:Women might get it more, but it does happen to men. For example, the beard thing I pointed out earlier. That is an issue generally only men have to deal with in the workplace. Not equivocating the two, just pointing out men and women BOTH face appearance policing in the legal field. One might be degrees worse than another, but both sexes deal with these problems.


You are equivocating. I never said men don't face appearance policing. I was observing and indicating my frustration with the extreme appearance policing women experience in professional settings (especially the legal profession) and how it occurs concurrently with other sexist actions that harm women. Go back and read my posts.

You and cuzzydunlop are jumping on me to say "yeah women have it hard but men have a smaller less harmful version of the same problem!" with the seeming implication that I should be just as outraged. Why would I be equally outraged if they're not equal? And why should I waste my breath pointing out something men already know when they often don't know how difficult it is to be a woman and be a lawyer? You can't state "I'm not equivocating" but then absolutely imply that these situations are equal. No one bashed men and said they weren't suffering. No one said they needed more attention on this issue.
Last edited by mcmand on Mon Jan 29, 2018 2:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

sparkytrainer

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Re: About to dye my hair pink?

Postby sparkytrainer » Thu Jan 11, 2018 10:42 pm

mcmand wrote:
sparkytrainer wrote:Women might get it more, but it does happen to men. For example, the beard thing I pointed out earlier. That is an issue generally only men have to deal with in the workplace. Not equivocating the two, just pointing out men and women BOTH face appearance policing in the legal field. One might be degrees worse than another, but both sexes deal with these problems.


You are equivocating. I never said men don't face appearance policing. I was observing and indicating my frustration with the extreme appearance policing women experience in professional settings (especially the legal profession) and how it occurs concurrently with other sexist actions that harm women. Go back and read my posts.

You and cuzzydunlop are jumping on me to say "yeah women have it hard but men have a smaller less harmful version of the same problem!" with the seeming implication that I should be just as outraged. Why would I be equally outraged if they're not equal? And why should I waste my breath pointing out something men already know when they often don't know how difficult it is to be a woman and be a lawyer? You can't state "I'm not equivocating" but then absolutely imply that these situations are equal. No one bashed men and said they weren't suffering. No one said they needed more attention on this issue.


You didn't get the point of my post. Sorry I offended you so severely.

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A. Nony Mouse

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Re: About to dye my hair pink?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Thu Jan 11, 2018 10:55 pm

Not sure how pointing out that this problem is actually tougher for women makes mcmand a condescending asshole.

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Re: About to dye my hair pink?

Postby mcmand » Thu Jan 11, 2018 11:05 pm

I'll cop to condescending, though I believe I was justified in being condescending to a post that was literally just the argument of BOTH SIDES, which is a crap argument and keeps perpetuating the exact problem I'm so worked up about.
Last edited by mcmand on Mon Jan 29, 2018 2:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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xRON MEXiCOx

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Re: About to dye my hair pink?

Postby xRON MEXiCOx » Thu Jan 11, 2018 11:16 pm

Ive never understood the whole hair dying thing

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A. Nony Mouse

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Re: About to dye my hair pink?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Thu Jan 11, 2018 11:48 pm

mcmand wrote:I'll cop to condescending, though I believe I was justified in being condescending to a post that was literally just the argument of BOTH SIDES, which is a crap argument and keeps perpetuating the exact problem I'm so worked up about.

Yeah, I don't even consider it condescending when the argument boils down to "But what about the MENZ????"

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Re: About to dye my hair pink?

Postby Delano » Fri Jan 12, 2018 2:00 am

A. Nony Mouse wrote:
mcmand wrote:I'll cop to condescending, though I believe I was justified in being condescending to a post that was literally just the argument of BOTH SIDES, which is a crap argument and keeps perpetuating the exact problem I'm so worked up about.

Yeah, I don't even consider it condescending when the argument boils down to "But what about the MENZ????"

Nony 4 prez.

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Re: About to dye my hair pink?

Postby Bojack93 » Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:53 am

sparkytrainer wrote:
mcmand wrote:
cuzzydunlop wrote:
mcmand wrote:Can we have a #TimesUp campaign for this kind of bullshit appearance-policing that women in the law put up with? Because when I've observed it (I'm a dude, so haven't experienced it directed at me), it seems almost always hand-in-hand with some other bullshit sexism, like what I saw in moot court/mock trial in law school. First night, judges say to the women competing: "You're too aggressive! Wow! Tone it down! Nobody likes that!" Second night: "So soft spoken, get fired up and go on the attack!"


Men face appearance-policing too. I have to shave every day and show up to work in a suit in tie. Female coworkers have significantly more leeway in what they can wear to work. Me - I'm sweating balls on the subway all summer long.


:roll: I can't tell if you're joking or if you're serious, but either way it's not worth me picking apart all the ways that this is not comparable to what women have to put up with in terms of having their clothing and bodies criticized and weaponized against them in the workplace.


Women might get it more, but it does happen to men. For example, the beard thing I pointed out earlier. That is an issue generally only men have to deal with in the workplace. Not equivocating the two, just pointing out men and women BOTH face appearance policing in the legal field. One might be degrees worse than another, but both sexes deal with these problems.


There were two conversations happening simultaneously here, one about appearance policing and one about sexism. There wasn't a clear distinction/transition and that seems to be why people got upset.

Suits are annoying and I certainly wish men's formal wear had more variation, but it's important to remember who makes these rules. Men have historically held the positions of power in law firms and corporations and thus dictated expectations. What women are allowed/encouraged to wear to work has most often been a reflection of how men feel women should present themselves. Men don't wear suits because women think they should.

Explaining why lawyers are stuffy and have things like beard restrictions is a different conversation. Also worth discussing, but in another context.

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Re: About to dye my hair pink?

Postby AvatarMeelo » Fri Jan 12, 2018 12:52 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:I cannot begin to say how many of my classmates were shocked by this. They assumed that pants were more conservative because they show less skin. What they didn’t get is that women wearing pants is seen as transgressive because it’s women wearing men’s clothing. Keep in mind that until the 1960s/70s many schools didn’t let girls wear pants to school and formal establishments (like clubs or such) wouldn’t let women in who wore pants. I had a prof who worked under Janet Reno and Janet Reno wouldn’t let the women in the office wear pants.

Personally I think if a firm dings you for wearing pants you really don’t want to work there and for biglaw pants will be fine. You may want skirts if you want to interview with judges because there are some notoriously conservative ones. The same might *possibly* be true if you interview with smaller firms in very conservative areas. (Ironically my sense is that there may be an expectation of skirts in some parts of the south, but you can often go much more nuts with colors and patterns in the south compared to the northeast.) (I don’t think LA cares about any of this at all!)


Wait Nony, serious question: what about the women who due to some religious constraint or the other cannot wear dresses/skirts shorter than ankle length? Even with tights/pantyhose/etc.? Loose pant-suits always seemed like a pretty good alternative but what to do for the judges who prefer a certain look?
Last edited by AvatarMeelo on Mon Jan 29, 2018 3:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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A. Nony Mouse

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Re: About to dye my hair pink?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:00 pm

So I think the question is whether you want it to be evident from your appearance that you are acting out of religious principles or not. I think most of the time when I see women in ankle-length skirts it’s clearly adherence to a modest dress code, and it wouldn’t really raise eyebrows (in the same way that a yarmulke doesn’t raise eyebrows, or a turban on an observant Sikh doesn’t raise eyebrows, although a turban on a white chick in the suburbs might). For instance, if you’re an observant Muslim who wears hijab, no one will have a problem with long skirts.

If you don’t want to make your religious principles obvious, I would just wear the pants suits and not worry about the occasional cranky judge. Life is too short to let those kinds of concerns affect your genuine beliefs. And I think it’s really unlikely that the one cranky judge is going to be the only thing between you and complete unemployment.

(This is all just a guess though; I don’t have personal experience with this.)



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