Ann Ivey - To Take her Advice or Not

(Where, When and What Did You Think)
prettypithy
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Postby prettypithy » Mon Oct 29, 2007 11:11 pm

I think T1 grads are pretty safe from destitution. You may not get a fat job from OCI but that does not mean you are destined to the Ramen noodle life. That said, I found the WSJ article to be approximately as scary as "The Shining". I will most likely be attending the highest ranked school I get into in the fall (money not withstanding). Previously, I was feeling a little more soft and fuzzy on that issue: "I'll go to the school that best suits my emotional needs!" Not bloody likely, now.

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valrp
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Postby valrp » Mon Oct 29, 2007 11:34 pm

Previously, I was feeling a little more soft and fuzzy on that issue: "I'll go to the school that best suits my emotional needs!" Not bloody likely, now.


You know what is funny - in Anne Ivey's book she gives the advice that you are turning against - that we should go to the school that will suit us best because we will do our best there; and here she is, telling us even if we do we are doomed.

Deciding to go to law school, filling out the applications, writing the personal statement, gathering the recommendations, and deciding on one law school to attend is truly an emotional journey. Am I being too sensitive? Did anyone else cry while writing/revising/hearing feedback on their personal statement? Maybe I've divulged too much information...

prettypithy
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Postby prettypithy » Mon Oct 29, 2007 11:38 pm

Am I being too sensitive?


Not at all. But every time I mention this kind of thing to an actual practicing attorney they look at me like I'm growing a horn out of my forehead. "Feelings? Emotions? These do not form a logical basis for a life altering decision."

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valrp
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Postby valrp » Mon Oct 29, 2007 11:49 pm

Not at all. But every time I mention this kind of thing to an actual practicing attorney they look at me like I'm growing a horn out of my forehead. "Feelings? Emotions? These do not form a logical basis for a life altering decision.



I know what you mean - I had one attorney tell me the other day that the personal statement was no big deal. Maybe Law School is like one big vacuum that sucks out all feeling. I don't know if I would mind that...I hope I don't cry in class one day. That would suck.

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jatuab
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Postby jatuab » Tue Oct 30, 2007 12:26 am

I know plenty of Univ of Alabama Law grads and Samford-Cumberland grads who are working side by side with Vandy and Harvard grads and making as much money. Depending on the legal market (Birmingham, here), lesser ranked schools have different levels of importance. All the attorneys at my firm (Ogletree Deakins) are making $75k+, and many started here within their first five years out of law school.

Work your tails off in your lower-ranked law schools and be proud of your legal education. You can do many things if you really believe that you can and are willing to work for it.

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valrp
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Postby valrp » Tue Oct 30, 2007 12:35 am

Work your tails off in your lower-ranked law schools and be proud of your legal education. You can do many things if you really believe that you can and are willing to work for it.


Hallelujah! Can I get a witness?

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HonoluluHopeful
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Postby HonoluluHopeful » Tue Oct 30, 2007 12:56 am

Yes, it can be an emotional process.

I hope I don't cry in class one day.


Don't cry in class, but maybe do so when you get home. You'll feel better. Go ahead and let it out.

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Son of Cicero
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Postby Son of Cicero » Tue Oct 30, 2007 1:19 am

Hmmm, I'm a pretty sensitive lover of poetry, literature, and the other arts, but I plan on letting my blood ice over during law school.

Fly
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Postby Fly » Tue Oct 30, 2007 1:22 am

I haven't cried, but I've been awfully emotional the past few months. I keep checking my e-mail thinking there might be acceptances/rejections, even though I know they're still over a month away. Once I know where I'm going, I'll be fine, until I'm up in the air about where I'll be working, that is.

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PeteP
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Postby PeteP » Tue Oct 30, 2007 1:39 am

I've read most of Ivey's book and that WSJ article that she referenced. She makes a lot of sense. I'm a non-trad applicant (3+ years out of school, EE major at a top engineering school) and am making more than 80k at my current job. My law school prospects however, look somewhat dim - probably no chance at top-14 school. I have a slightly above a 3.0 GPA, and am planning to take the LSAT December. (rescheduled the Sept for Dec). I have great work experience and a planning to go into IP law.

From what I learned on the forums at intelproplaw, it seems to be a mixed bag for IP people too. If you go to a tier-2, you better be in the top 10-15% to get considered for those >100k salaried jobs. I know a guy who got his PhD recently from a top-20 school and is in Santa Clara intending to do an IP concentration. Apparently he is struggling with it - getting an average GPA (Bs) won't cut it. Nothing's guaranteed. I'm aiming for Santa Clara - but I'm having my doubts on my job prospects if I go there and don't pull out straight As.

Even one of my friends who was on law review at Hastings (while not in the top-14, still a tier 1) - is NOT pulling out a 100K+ salary, 4-5 years after law school. Granted he works at a boutique firm, but still...

I've saved enough to finance my law school education completely, but I don't want to waste my money if I'm going to pull only 50K per year. I realize that I would probably be taking a pay cut initially after law school, but would like to have a reasonable chance to boost it beyond 100K after a couple years.

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sockpuppet
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Postby sockpuppet » Tue Oct 30, 2007 2:12 am

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senegalese_filmmaker
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Postby senegalese_filmmaker » Tue Oct 30, 2007 8:16 am

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PhillyFanatiKC
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Postby PhillyFanatiKC » Tue Oct 30, 2007 8:34 am

However, the real point is that if you don't go to a T20, you will have to try a lot harder, and you will need to truly be a good attorney and have good social skills to advance


And...if you go to a T14, you can be a shoddy attorney and a social outcast![/quote]

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sockpuppet
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Postby sockpuppet » Tue Oct 30, 2007 11:15 am

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M20009
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Postby M20009 » Tue Oct 30, 2007 11:19 am

If you really want to be an attorney, don't listen to her.

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sockpuppet
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Postby sockpuppet » Tue Oct 30, 2007 11:28 am

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valrp
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Postby valrp » Tue Oct 30, 2007 1:11 pm

I guess all I was trying to say was that her article was discouraging, however - I've already made my choice in spite of what she says.

Who knows, maybe I'll be the exception to the rule at the t14 I applied to. If not, I'm perfectly happy with my safety schools. Both law firms I've worked for already told me that once I graduate, they'd be happy to hire me, assuming I pass the bar. I guess I'm lucky that I was able to show my work ethic to them before I went to law school.

The Agitator
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Postby The Agitator » Tue Nov 27, 2007 10:20 am

I think her point was more that one can't expect to get a $100K+ job out of law school despite what the schools tell you. She was more warning that it doesn't make economic sense to spend 150K on a Brooklyn Law education, because your loan payments will be a large portion of your income.

I agree with that but I think graduating from a lower school, when you want to stay in that region and will have very little debt b/c of scholarship money, is actually a great move.

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playhero
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Postby playhero » Tue Nov 27, 2007 1:39 pm

I think you guys are taking ann ivys' point wrong. She isn't telling you, you shouldn't go to law school. She is just point out that if you go to lower ranked law school, on loans, and slack off; your job prospectives are dismal at best, not to mention all the money you will be in the hole for.

wesleybs
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Postby wesleybs » Tue Nov 27, 2007 1:54 pm

Going back to the regional factor. If you can't get into T14, but can get scholarship money at a T50 regional school, the nearby firms hire a ton of regional grads. After looking at NC firms, there are 10 Wake Forest and UNC grads for every 1 T14 grad. Most T14 grads aren't looking to work in a big NC firm, they are aiming for NYC, Chicago, California, DC, etc. That leaves a lot of open slots at large firms with national reputations near regional schools. Also, the number of these regional grads that make partner is very high, so the future prospects aren't bad either.

(Hence my inner battle between attending CCN or going to a regional school with no debt)

greygoose
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Postby greygoose » Tue Nov 27, 2007 7:28 pm

i'd agree with the last few posters:

Ivey is revealing a commonly misunderstood conception of the law profession. People with the mentality of: "I'm going to a law school, thus am set for life" are in trouble. The lower you go down the rankings, the more likely you'll need to work somewhat harder to get into a V100 firm or whatever. But, for ambitious and hardworking individuals, who are realistic in their outlook can expect to do well. They are all characteristics inherent in many good practicing lawyers.

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normalien
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Postby normalien » Mon Dec 03, 2007 10:14 pm

i can't connect to the site with the text. can anyone post it? or email it?

Voyager
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Postby Voyager » Mon Dec 03, 2007 10:40 pm

A great piece of advice I got - It's not about the school you go to, it's about the opportunities you take while you're there.


The problem is that the opportunities available at a T-14 vs a T3 differ dramatically.

Hell, they differ dramatically when comparing a top 5 to a top 20.

Don't fool yourself: school ranking matters a ton.

Voyager
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Postby Voyager » Mon Dec 03, 2007 11:06 pm

again, only in the context of what you want to do with your law degree.


Dude. Relax. What did I say? I said that ranking matters a ton. And it does, whether you are happy with your options out of your T2 or not. I haven't said anything so far (in this thread at least) that can be contradicted in any way.

Options at lower tiered schools are very different. No one can dispute that.

EDIT: he deleted his post.
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itdontmattertoJesus
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Postby itdontmattertoJesus » Mon Dec 03, 2007 11:06 pm

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