Ann Ivey - To Take her Advice or Not Forum

valrp · Post by **valrp** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 1:54 pm

Ann Ivey, whom I respect and read her book about getting into law school, has posted --LinkRemoved-- blog about schools that are not t14. She warns that the job market is slow for students who go to law school at a second tier school especially, and mentions Brooklyn Law School and Tulane in her post.

What do you guys think? I know I have no chance with my stats at a t14 school, but I also know that I am not in this for the money (which Ann assumes every prospective law student is in her post). Do you think her advice should be taken seriously?

My verdict - take it with a grain of salt and be prepared, if not going to a t14, to tackle a possibly rough job market.

Edit - the only thing that really sucks here is that your paying top dollar for the schools, you graduate with over $100,000 in student loans to pay off, and then you get a job that slows your ability to pay. I'm used to debt but I don't like it, I must admit.

philo-sophia · Post by **philo-sophia** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 2:11 pm

maybe i'm just comforting myself, but i think that view is way more applicable to T2 and below, but not so much to schools in the top 30, or even the top 50. T14 is pretty important to get the jobs at T10 firms in NYC where you bring home 160K/yr, but if $125K/yr is enough to keep you satisfied, I'd say most T1 schools should do the trick. I live outside of philly and know of a TON of lawyers who do very well coming from Villanova (ranked in the 60's). They're at big firms like Morgan Lewis and Dechert alongside Harvard grads. My guess, though, is that coming from a school like Brooklyn might make life tougher. One nuance i'd note is that it seems like once you're outside the T20 or so law schools, things get tougher if you want to work outside of the law school's region. I doubt for instance that Villanova grads would do very well searching in LA, and conversely, Loyola grads would probably find it tough to land a job at Dechert in philly.

valrp · Post by **valrp** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 2:19 pm

I know plenty of USF grads that haven been very successful in San Francisco and the bay area. I think you bring up a good point. Maybe we should attend a school in our region if we aren't going to t30.

philo-sophia · Post by **philo-sophia** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 2:52 pm

yeah, i definitely think that once you're outside the top 30 or so region becomes a key consideration. I'd really like to go out to CA and experience the west coast for a while, so i'm applying to Berkeley, UCLA and USC. That said, i can't go to UC Hastings or Loyola, b/c if i find out i want to move back to the east coast, i'd be in a tough spot.

valrp · Post by **valrp** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 4:16 pm

yeah, i definitely think that once you're outside the top 30 or so region becomes a key consideration. I'd really like to go out to CA and experience the west coast for a while, so i'm applying to Berkeley, UCLA and USC. That said, i can't go to UC Hastings or Loyola, b/c if i find out i want to move back to the east coast, i'd be in a tough spot.

Likewise - I'd like to attend on the East just for the experience.

bumpjon · Post by **bumpjon** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 5:15 pm

I was a long shot for some T14 schools, I may have made it with soft factors and URM status but I would have to pay a ton. I figured that I can go to a lower ranked T1 or high T2 with a scholarship and graduate with no debt.
I know that it will be harder to compete for the top jobs but I will have an easier time graduating at or near the top of my class and I'll have an extra $15,000-$25,000/yr because I won't have loan payments. I will be just as competitive, if not more so, for MidLaw and SmallLaw jobs. I can open my own firm if I choose, or work for the Gov't.
T14 is great if you can afford it, but your career options aren't as limited as some say if you don't go T14. Of course, if you can get HYS then you'd be dumb not to take that at any cost. But the rest of T14 is over-hyped.

Post by **Son of Cicero** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 5:54 pm

Over-hyped? You still get the highest paying jobs, the most freedom, and the most respect (at least for the first 5-10 years of your career or so, after that your accomplishments start to matter more, although even then you have access to more venues to accomplish impressive things). Don't knock the t14 because you didn't go there; none of the informed commentators do.

sirhitch · Post by **sirhitch** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 6:49 pm

I don't think the issue with the T-14 is that they are "overhyped". Their reputations are well earned. Its more the fact that a T-14 education is not even close to being necessary for a person to become a successful attorney.

bumpjon · Post by **bumpjon** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 6:50 pm

I'm just saying why go to 14 and take out a ton of debt, when you can go to 30 for free.

If you take out $150,00 to go t14, and I go to t30 for free I'm saving $1,700/mo for 10yrs in loan fees. That means if I invested that a 6% I get almost $300k. If I could average 12% it's closer to $400k. Is t14 really going to get me $30-40k more a year? It's possible but not likely. HYS would but it's not so certain with the rest.

Additionally, at a T30 I have a lot better chance at getting top 2% than at a T14. Suma, law review editor, etc. at T30 looks better than just another smart kid at T14.

bumpjon · Post by **bumpjon** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 6:52 pm

I don't think the issue with the T-14 is that they are "overhyped". Their reputations are well earned. Its more the fact that a T-14 education is not even close to being necessary for a person to become a successful attorney.

Perhaps I misspoke, I meant the "need" to go to T14 is overhyped.

Post by **lishi** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 7:41 pm

That article really depresses me. I know I'm not getting into a T14, so now I feel like I'm going to be reading electronic contracts for $30 an hour and no benefits for the rest of my life.

sockpuppet · Post by **sockpuppet** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 7:52 pm

Post by **lishi** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 7:54 pm

I haven't read her book, but by just reading that she kinda sounds like a bitch

sockpuppet · Post by **sockpuppet** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 7:57 pm

sockpuppet · Post by **sockpuppet** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 8:40 pm

neskerdoo · Post by **neskerdoo** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 8:47 pm

Sock, on that graph you put in the post, what are the four across the bottom? Top 10, then what? I can't make it all out....

Post by **Son of Cicero** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 8:52 pm

To be honest, this info scares me and I am T14-bound. I thought the market was healthier as a whole.

sockpuppet · Post by **sockpuppet** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 8:54 pm

sockpuppet · Post by **sockpuppet** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 9:00 pm

lawisfun22 · Post by **lawisfun22** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 9:09 pm

maybe i'm just comforting myself, but i think that view is way more applicable to T2 and below, but not so much to schools in the top 30, or even the top 50.

I disagree, University of Miami graduates can land great jobs in south florida and they are ranked #73. I do agree after the t-14 though the school pretty much becomes regional. UM and UF are respected in the state of florida in my opinion

valrp · Post by **valrp** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 10:23 pm

I will repeat this for those who may have skipped it...

I think a law degree is still valuable from a second tier or even t40 - t30 school if you practice law in the region you go to school. I work with very successful attorneys who went to USD, USF, and Santa Clara and many of them are partners, one from santa clara already has her own, successful high-profile divorce law firm (she charges $600/hr and has a staff of 3 and works with 7 other associates).

We shouldn't be so hard on ourselves...

A great piece of advice I got - It's not about the school you go to, it's about the opportunities you take while you're there.

valrp · Post by **valrp** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 10:28 pm

I haven't read her book, but by just reading that she kinda sounds like a bitch

Her book was REALLY good - but it's pretty much targeted at those who want to get into a top school. And, she comes off bitchy in her book, too. Definitely a good read for those applying to law school, but I'm sure even if you didn't read it (and considering you are on this forum) you submitted fabulous application

Post by **Son of Cicero** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 10:30 pm

For me, it isn't so much a question of knowing I will be employed and that I can use my skills to get ahead. I am just terrified by the prospect of $150,000+ of debt when there are no guarantees of where I will end up. Then again, I am too ambitious to pass up what most people would call an excellent opportunity for someone who works as hard as I do.

valrp · Post by **valrp** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 10:42 pm

I am just terrified by the prospect of $150,000+ of debt when there are no guarantees of where I will end up.

I think we are all terrified of the debt. I'm carrying $3000 debt right now and it weighs on me everyday - and that's nothing compared to what I'm about to take on with law school.

Fly · Post by **Fly** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 10:58 pm

I think the implications some people draw from this article are overly paranoid. A lot of people here are certainly Tier 1 material. The schools she cites are tier two, and one of the people was only "near the top half," as if that were some big achievement. Don't get me wrong; I'm not bashing Brooklyn or anything, but someone in the lower half at Brooklyn not finding work does not mean that upper half (this is a large assumption, I know) Tier 1 grads won't find work.

Ann Ivey - To Take her Advice or Not Forum

Ann Ivey - To Take her Advice or Not

philo-sophia, I agree

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