NYU ASW VS PENN ASW - one man's oppinion. Forum

[Veyron]

So, I'm poasting on here to try to sort out what looks like it will be a very difficult decision. After visiting both ASW's I've made the following pro-con list. Keep in mind I am proly looking at $ at both schools but (slightly) moar at Penn. Also keep in mind that I know that I am a lucky bastard to have these opportunities. Before I started applying, I would have tortured baby kittens to have these options - ah the tyrany of choice.


Pro -->

NYU:
T-6 (and a rising star even within that august group)
In NYC (pro for location, for others this is the deciding factor, for me this is only a moderate boost, I want to work in a 2ndary market)
Don't know if I want to do firm or PI, NYU's LRAP dominates like a 400 pound chick in leather.
NYU students just seem more confident about their job prospects.
Faculty kicks ass.
Best for Criminal Law, Con Law (don’t tell me it doesn’t exist – I personally know people who do it – its just difficult to get into), general corporate lit (can see myself doing any of these)
The law school is beautiful.

Penn:
Rankings change, the Ivy League is forever.
It would be real cool for me (as a guy with some business background) to get to do a certificate at Wharton.
Penn Law really seems integrated with the rest of the university, when I was there I really got the feeling that students there are scholars who participate in studies across fields. Exciting feeling to study at one of the greatest universities in America where everyone you run into - from undergrads to doctorial candidates are fucking brilliant. I felt smarter for being there.
Students geographically diverse – both in where they are from and where they want to work.
I liked the people.
People seem to love the law school and be very loyal to Penn and Penn students. You can tell there is a very close knit alumni and faculty network that even stretches as far as my hometown.
Best for a very specific type of law that I can also see myself doing.
Small and personal
Lrap makes it easier to switch hit between firms and PI.
Slightly cheaper
Profs less well known but moar focused on teaching. Classes smaller.

Con:

NYU:

Was kind of bored by the people. Honestly, talk about something other than the Village. Its cool (kinda), but I don’t want most of my conversations as a law student to be about NYC.

Segregates itself from the university (perhaps because students at the Law School are of a wholly different type and caliber than other NYU students).

Slightly moar expensive than Penn overall

Student body not geographically diverse in where they are from (New York, New England, oh MY! A few kids from the South for good measure) and where they want to work (NYC, duh, do they even have like, laws west of the Mississippi [yes we do], hell do they even have laws in Jersey [no].

LRAP not very conducive for working for a firm and then doing PI. Not sure if I want to do this, but in my state going between the two (like from a firm to the DA’s office and back) is pretty common, especially in criminal law.

Large and impersonal.

Penn:

Students and career center not forthcoming about job prospects. This is a - no, this is THE big worry. NYU career center and students were much more forthcoming and detailed. Perhaps some of this can be chalked up to collegiality and not wanting to be competitive but you know, they guy with the 12 inch cock doesn’t mind if you see him naked in the locker-room.

Not going T-6 permanently shuts some doors (you know, in case I graduate top 1% and want to clerk for SCOTUS or something – hey! Let a pig have his fantasy)

Law school looks nice, but is kinda rundown, I hear this may be changing.

Housing is awful. Would have to spend just as much on decent housing close to the law school as I would on the NYU dorms.

____________________________________________________________________

Please feel free to add your comments to mine.

[BaiAilian2013]

I kind of had a hard time relating to the students at the NYU ASW too, but, assuming they are volunteers, I think there's a sampling bias there.

[Veyron]

^ Absolutely a possibility, however, I have it on good authority that the students are indeed representative.

[Lermontov]

Just a thought,
For Penn's career prospects, the CP&P rep got the question at one of the panels and answered that "the vast, vast majority of them [3Ls and 2Ls] have firm positions" if they are seeking them, with 2Ls meaning SAs and 3Ls jobs.

She wouldn't give an exact number, which was a little odd, but I think saying 'vast, vast majority' implies that if you want it, it shouldn't be a concern (I envision >75% of those seeking, whether naively or not). I don't know, I'm sure we all have different tolerances for that sort of risk, but it allayed any fears I had. Although obviously with a slightly better rep, NYU is probably in at least as plum a situation.

[Veyron]

^ Yah, the 2/3 number does keep cropping up. This is keeping in mind that most students are not getting to choose between offers. I think there is sampling bias tho since most students that volunteered seemed an above average student and presumably would know other above average students situation's better.

[swimbrad]

After doing both, I think this is an excellent analysis. A couple things to add/comment

I feel like the Penn students were a little more down to earth/normal - the NYU kids were just... NYUish (a little to hip for me - but I'm from the heartland, so take that for what it's worth)

The comment from the Penn placement office that they wouldn't tell us how much 2L's had summer spots was VERY disconcerting (seeing as how NYU and Columbia were VERY forthcoming with this information even though I was there at the beginning of March - before more PI stuff had started). Even after re-phrasing the question, she still refused to give an approx. of how many 2Ls had secured summer work. Though she did come back after answering another question and used the phrase "vast majority" - why not just put a number on it - i don't like shifty-ness

The whole interdisciplinary thing was awesome - especially for the connection to Wharton (and the certificate for those - like me - who have an extremely small chance of getting admitted to Wharton)

Downtown Philly was sweet, lots of cool history (plus you can run the museum steps from Rocky), but Penn is in a pretty lame part of Philly (in west philadelphia, born and raised....) It seems like there will be a lot of taxi/busing/subwaying (but the subway is less convenient than NYC, where it's everywhere.

[Lermontov]

^ Yah, the 2/3 number does keep cropping up. This is keeping in mind that most students are not getting to choose between offers. I think there is sampling bias tho since most students that volunteered seemed an above average student and presumably would know other above average students situation's better.

I kindof doubt the bolded, though not necessarily the sampling bias concern. You make friends and get to know people totally independent of grades, and long before they come out. Seems like everyone would have a comparable friend set as far as the grades and opportunities go.

[scribelaw]

At NYU, Dean R said during the ASW that 90 percent of 2Ls and 3Ls are placed, and he's working on the last 10 percent.

Of course, that number tells you a little bit, but you don't know if people got the job they wanted, etc.

[Billy Blanks]

I feel like the Penn students were a little more down to earth/normal - the NYU kids were just... NYUish (a little to hip for me - but I'm from the heartland, so take that for what it's worth).

I can't comment on Penn students, but am I the only one who thought that NYU kids were not, in fact, very hip at all? They seemed far more like studious, if young, students. Not at all what I was expecting (not to say that I thought they would be drunkenly dancing to of montreal). Maybe this is just me.

[clevinger33]

I feel like the Penn students were a little more down to earth/normal - the NYU kids were just... NYUish (a little to hip for me - but I'm from the heartland, so take that for what it's worth).

I can't comment on Penn students, but am I the only one who thought that NYU kids were not, in fact, very hip at all? They seemed far more like studious, if young, students. Not at all what I was expecting (not to say that I thought they would be drunkenly dancing to of montreal). Maybe this is just me.

of Montreal is so 2007.

[Illijah]

only on the law school forums would notions of being "hip" would have a negative context

what is this the 1950's? bunch of lousy beatnicks out there in greenwich village!

[Oblomov]

.

[swimbrad]

only on the law school forums would notions of being "hip" would have a negative context

what is this the 1950's? bunch of lousy beatnicks out there in greenwich village!

I didn't mean to imply it was a bad thing at all, merely I'm just a little slow on the uptake. All I meant to imply is that, being from the heartland, I fit in slightly better with the Penn crowd than the NYU bunch

[Illijah]

only on the law school forums would notions of being "hip" would have a negative context

what is this the 1950's? bunch of lousy beatnicks out there in greenwich village!

I didn't mean to imply it was a bad thing at all, merely I'm just a little slow on the uptake. All I meant to imply is that, being from the heartland, I fit in slightly better with the Penn crowd than the NYU bunch

That comment while triggered by your post was in response to a much broader sentiment i've seen expressed on these boards.

[asaunde2]

I would recommend not forming too conclusive an opinion about the personality type of a whole student body based on meeting a handful of them over the weekend, at either NYU or Penn. I go to NYU and I can attest that there are all kinds of people here, from studious intellectuals to beer pong champions. Just like in undergrad, you will choose who you want to hang out with. I am sure it's the same way at Penn.

[Sobriquet]

NYU 1L here w/ my 2 cents:

- NYU definitely has a disproportionate amount of east coasters, but the student population is extremely diverse and there are students from everywhere represented. In fact, there is a huge CA population, a fairly large TX contingency, and quite a large mix of people from the south. While I have to admit, the Midwest is somewhat underrepresented, I believe that may be more of Midwestern people self-selecting themselves to stay in the Midwest (e.g. by going to Chicago/NW/Michigan). For some reason, I doubt you'll find a ton of them at Penn either. There are also quite a few international students in the JD class, and the huge LLM population makes the school feel quite international on the whole.

- Yes most people want to work in NYC. Maybe a little more than usual. But I'm sure the majority of students and any T6 tend to want NYC (w/ lesser percentages at Stanford and Chicago perhaps). As a student who was 99% sure I wanted to return to my hometown before law school (intention was to spend 3 yrs is NY and then go home), I have fallen in love w/ the city and don't think I will be ready to leave in 2 yrs. It'll happen. I think it was a positive realization for me. And I'm sure that's happened to other students who have come to NYU and realized that they love it here in NYC. So I think that should be a "pro" for you.

- I am pretty surprised that you guys found NYU students to be less down to earth than Penn students. Maybe it was the timing of the visit - if you came during the Admitted Students program last week, most of the class had our 1L appellate briefs due on Friday (basically the huge writing assignment 1L year). Also, as an anecdote, NYU has had a couple of "parties" w/ Columbia. I did not go, but my Columbia friends who went told me that they felt as though the NYU people were more social and outgoing than their own classmates. Not to knock Columbia or anything, but I think it's just a testament to the fact that NYU students are probably some of the most laid-back out of top law students. People here seem to value their social lives just as much as their education - they realize that law school is not just about studying but also about making friends and networking. I think that's huge.

[Veyron]

[quote="Sobriquet"]NYU 1L here w/ my 2 cents:

- NYU definitely has a disproportionate amount of east coasters, but the student population is extremely diverse and there are students from everywhere represented. In fact, there is a huge CA population, a fairly large TX contingency, and quite a large mix of people from the south. While I have to admit, the Midwest is somewhat underrepresented, I believe that may be more of Midwestern people self-selecting themselves to stay in the Midwest (e.g. by going to Chicago/NW/Michigan). For some reason, I doubt you'll find a ton of them at Penn either. There are also quite a few international students in the JD class, and the huge LLM population makes the school feel quite international on the whole.[quote]

The fact that the Mountain/Southwest doesn't even get a mention in this poast kind proves my point. Also, I get the impression that Penn has a greater % of students going back to their 2ndary markets (perhaps because for most people NYC is just easier to love?)

[Action Jackson]

A couple notes from the Penn perspective:

1. Law school is law school, so while it's nice that you thought Penn was super academically brilliant, you're not really going to be hanging out with the guys in the philosophy department on a regular basis.

2. People are people. Everyone thinks OTHER people are more sociable than their classmates, and you're going to end up liking the people you like and not liking the people you don't like. At either school you'll find your friends.

3. The job market is totally fucked. Anyone that tells you otherwise is full of it. Our CP&P people are fine, but I think they're giving the public a rosier picture of the job market than is fair. I know unemployed 3Ls. Maybe more importantly, I know A LOT of 3Ls that have had to settle for jobs they never thought they'd have to settle for. Firm jobs, but NOT where they ever wanted to live and work. That said, I'm sure NYU has a similar problem.

In full disclosure, I came to Penn only because of Wharton, and that's a pretty fine reason to come here. If not for Wharton, I would have gone to NYU. I love NYC and I think NYU is a fantastic school.

If you're VERY interested in business, Penn is a no-brainer. Otherwise, try and get a handle on which environment you'd be most comfortable in. If you liked Philly but didn't like NYC, come to Penn.

Just one last word of advice: ASW is not enough time to really get to know a school. Its worth it to try and take more time off and visit the schools for longer. Even if it costs you a bunch of money, you're about to dive head first into hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt, a little more to pick the right school isn't unreasonable.

Good luck on your decisions.

[Illijah]

A couple notes from the Penn perspective:

1. Law school is law school, so while it's nice that you thought Penn was super academically brilliant, you're not really going to be hanging out with the guys in the philosophy department on a regular basis.

2. People are people. Everyone thinks OTHER people are more sociable than their classmates, and you're going to end up liking the people you like and not liking the people you don't like. At either school you'll find your friends.

3. The job market is totally fucked. Anyone that tells you otherwise is full of it. Our CP&P people are fine, but I think they're giving the public a rosier picture of the job market than is fair. I know unemployed 3Ls. Maybe more importantly, I know A LOT of 3Ls that have had to settle for jobs they never thought they'd have to settle for. Firm jobs, but NOT where they ever wanted to live and work. That said, I'm sure NYU has a similar problem.

In full disclosure, I came to Penn only because of Wharton, and that's a pretty fine reason to come here. If not for Wharton, I would have gone to NYU. I love NYC and I think NYU is a fantastic school.

If you're VERY interested in business, Penn is a no-brainer. Otherwise, try and get a handle on which environment you'd be most comfortable in. If you liked Philly but didn't like NYC, come to Penn.

Just one last word of advice: ASW is not enough time to really get to know a school. Its worth it to try and take more time off and visit the schools for longer. Even if it costs you a bunch of money, you're about to dive head first into hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt, a little more to pick the right school isn't unreasonable.

Good luck on your decisions.

Are you enrolling in a joint MBA/JD? If not then i'm not exactly following how having Wharton in the vicinity would help a JD student in any way. Espescially how it would factor in the decision making. MBA's themselves are already watered down so i doubt a "certificate" will aid in marketability when people with full fleshed MBA's abound.

[hopefullaw27]

the certificate seems sorta worthless...only 4 courses in wharton gets you the certificate right? not really going to learn much in 4 courses...i guess the wharton name may make some impact on the resume, but if they know what the certificate entailed, then i highly doubt its value

[rockchalk86]

I think for the business minded, Penn makes sense. If you take the Wharton classes, you are meeting and networking with future CEO's, Hedge Fund managers etc... When it comes to making a name in your firm, rounding up business is one of the most important things you can do. It's much easier when you were in a study group with CEO's and regularly got wasted with future business stars.

The caveat... you gotta know how to network and be willing to keep in touch.

[rv11]

So, I'm poasting on here to try to sort out what looks like it will be a very difficult decision. After visiting both ASW's I've made the following pro-con list. Keep in mind I am proly looking at $ at both schools but (slightly) moar at Penn. Also keep in mind that I know that I am a lucky bastard to have these opportunities. Before I started applying, I would have tortured baby kittens to have these options - ah the tyrany of choice.


Pro -->

NYU:
T-6 (and a rising star even within that august group)
In NYC (pro for location, for others this is the deciding factor, for me this is only a moderate boost, I want to work in a 2ndary market)
Don't know if I want to do firm or PI, NYU's LRAP dominates like a 400 pound chick in leather.
NYU students just seem more confident about their job prospects.
Faculty kicks ass.
Best for Criminal Law, Con Law (don’t tell me it doesn’t exist – I personally know people who do it – its just difficult to get into), general corporate lit (can see myself doing any of these)
The law school is beautiful.

Penn:
Rankings change, the Ivy League is forever.
It would be real cool for me (as a guy with some business background) to get to do a certificate at Wharton.
Penn Law really seems integrated with the rest of the university, when I was there I really got the feeling that students there are scholars who participate in studies across fields. Exciting feeling to study at one of the greatest universities in America where everyone you run into - from undergrads to doctorial candidates are fucking brilliant. I felt smarter for being there.
Students geographically diverse – both in where they are from and where they want to work.
I liked the people.
People seem to love the law school and be very loyal to Penn and Penn students. You can tell there is a very close knit alumni and faculty network that even stretches as far as my hometown.
Best for a very specific type of law that I can also see myself doing.
Small and personal
Lrap makes it easier to switch hit between firms and PI.
Slightly cheaper
Profs less well known but focused on teaching. Classes smaller.

Con:

NYU:

Was kind of bored by the people. Honestly, talk about something other than the Village. Its cool (kinda), but I don’t want most of my conversations as a law student to be about NYC.

Segregates itself from the university (perhaps because students at the Law School are of a wholly different type and caliber than other NYU students).

Slightly moar expensive than Penn overall

Student body not geographically diverse in where they are from (New York, New England, oh MY! A few kids from the South for good measure) and where they want to work (NYC, duh, do they even have like, laws west of the Mississippi [yes we do], hell do they even have laws in Jersey [no].

LRAP not very conducive for working for a firm and then doing PI. Not sure if I want to do this, but in my state going between the two (like from a firm to the DA’s office and back) is pretty common, especially in criminal law.

Large and impersonal.

Penn:

Students and career center not forthcoming about job prospects. This is a - no, this is THE big worry. NYU career center and students were much more forthcoming and detailed. Perhaps some of this can be chalked up to collegiality and not wanting to be competitive but you know, they guy with the 12 inch cock doesn’t mind if you see him naked in the locker-room.

Not going T-6 permanently shuts some doors (you know, in case I graduate top 1% and want to clerk for SCOTUS or something – hey! Let a pig have his fantasy)

Law school looks nice, but is kinda rundown, I hear this may be changing.

Housing is awful. Would have to spend just as much on decent housing close to the law school as I would on the NYU dorms.

____________________________________________________________________

Please feel free to add your comments to mine.

Moar? Three times? Really? How are you getting money at these schools?

[Veyron]

So, I'm poasting on here to try to sort out what looks like it will be a very difficult decision. After visiting both ASW's I've made the following pro-con list. Keep in mind I am proly looking at $ at both schools but (slightly) moar at Penn. Also keep in mind that I know that I am a lucky bastard to have these opportunities. Before I started applying, I would have tortured baby kittens to have these options - ah the tyrany of choice.


Pro -->

NYU:
T-6 (and a rising star even within that august group)
In NYC (pro for location, for others this is the deciding factor, for me this is only a moderate boost, I want to work in a 2ndary market)
Don't know if I want to do firm or PI, NYU's LRAP dominates like a 400 pound chick in leather.
NYU students just seem more confident about their job prospects.
Faculty kicks ass.
Best for Criminal Law, Con Law (don’t tell me it doesn’t exist – I personally know people who do it – its just difficult to get into), general corporate lit (can see myself doing any of these)
The law school is beautiful.

Penn:
Rankings change, the Ivy League is forever.
It would be real cool for me (as a guy with some business background) to get to do a certificate at Wharton.
Penn Law really seems integrated with the rest of the university, when I was there I really got the feeling that students there are scholars who participate in studies across fields. Exciting feeling to study at one of the greatest universities in America where everyone you run into - from undergrads to doctorial candidates are fucking brilliant. I felt smarter for being there.
Students geographically diverse – both in where they are from and where they want to work.
I liked the people.
People seem to love the law school and be very loyal to Penn and Penn students. You can tell there is a very close knit alumni and faculty network that even stretches as far as my hometown.
Best for a very specific type of law that I can also see myself doing.
Small and personal
Lrap makes it easier to switch hit between firms and PI.
Slightly cheaper
Profs less well known but focused on teaching. Classes smaller.

Con:

NYU:

Was kind of bored by the people. Honestly, talk about something other than the Village. Its cool (kinda), but I don’t want most of my conversations as a law student to be about NYC.

Segregates itself from the university (perhaps because students at the Law School are of a wholly different type and caliber than other NYU students).

Slightly moar expensive than Penn overall

Student body not geographically diverse in where they are from (New York, New England, oh MY! A few kids from the South for good measure) and where they want to work (NYC, duh, do they even have like, laws west of the Mississippi [yes we do], hell do they even have laws in Jersey [no].

LRAP not very conducive for working for a firm and then doing PI. Not sure if I want to do this, but in my state going between the two (like from a firm to the DA’s office and back) is pretty common, especially in criminal law.

Large and impersonal.

Penn:

Students and career center not forthcoming about job prospects. This is a - no, this is THE big worry. NYU career center and students were much more forthcoming and detailed. Perhaps some of this can be chalked up to collegiality and not wanting to be competitive but you know, they guy with the 12 inch cock doesn’t mind if you see him naked in the locker-room.

Not going T-6 permanently shuts some doors (you know, in case I graduate top 1% and want to clerk for SCOTUS or something – hey! Let a pig have his fantasy)

Law school looks nice, but is kinda rundown, I hear this may be changing.

Housing is awful. Would have to spend just as much on decent housing close to the law school as I would on the NYU dorms.

____________________________________________________________________

Please feel free to add your comments to mine.

Moar? Three times? Really? How are you getting money at these schools?

Welcome to the net, we speak a different language here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_meme

Oh, also, I am getting $ from these schools because I'm smarter and moar accomplished than you (also better looking). XOXOHTH

[rv11]

Regardless, I don't think too many MORE law firms will be looking to hire you upon graduation. MORon.

[Illijah]

I think for the business minded, Penn makes sense. If you take the Wharton classes, you are meeting and networking with future CEO's, Hedge Fund managers etc... When it comes to making a name in your firm, rounding up business is one of the most important things you can do. It's much easier when you were in a study group with CEO's and regularly got wasted with future business stars.

The caveat... you gotta know how to network and be willing to keep in touch.

networking? You would actually decide where you would earn your JD degree for the "opportunity to network" at another school....Makes sense on paper but i don't think that is a good idea.