GULC 2010 WL'ers

Share Your Experiences, Read About Other Experiences. Please keep posts organized by school and expected year of graduation.
User avatar
tommytahoe
Posts: 548
Joined: Sat Feb 14, 2009 2:46 pm

Re: GULC 2010 WL'ers

Postby tommytahoe » Tue Jun 01, 2010 8:14 pm

MURPH wrote:That is ballsy. I'm 34 and I just feel I am too old to wait any longer to go back to school. I have just started thinking about applying ED next year to Penn and getting my application in as early as possible. If Tommytahoe can wait a year maybe I can too. If I worked hard for a year then I could save more $. That would be just as good as a scholarship, sort of. I'll have to give this some more thought.


Well, it's against my better judgment in many ways (taking an extra year, that is). Ballsy is one way of putting it. I can think of a less flattering way, but this is a family thread.

But, though I've finally finished my BA, and am on a roll, I know that a world of difference can be made with cycle #2, simply by getting a 165.
Not an easy choice, if it comes to that. I have 2 months for one of 8 schools to make me an offer, so Plan B may very well never come to pass. Do think about it though. If you want to go to law school this Fall at all costs, then there's no dilemma. If there is a point at which going this year is not acceptable, ask yourself where that line is, and on what grounds (money, school of choice, etc).
I'm not looking forward to having to take a year off, but if it comes to that, I have a sheet of paper that will tll me what good I can make of it that being a 1L would not permit.

User avatar
MURPH
Posts: 854
Joined: Wed Dec 10, 2008 12:20 am

Re: GULC 2010 WL'ers

Postby MURPH » Tue Jun 01, 2010 8:32 pm

My LSAT score is maxed out. I don't think I can improve. Nor can I change my GPA from 1997. So if I were to wait, I would be banking on 1.) getting my application in early. 2.) Taking advantage of applying ED somewhere, which I didn't do this year and 3.) some minor unsubstantial improvements in my PS, LORs, etc.
That ain't much but it could kick me into the T14. If I played my cards right I could land a spot at Duke, Penn or UVA maybe. I could also work and make a lot of $$.

User avatar
tommytahoe
Posts: 548
Joined: Sat Feb 14, 2009 2:46 pm

Re: GULC 2010 WL'ers

Postby tommytahoe » Tue Jun 01, 2010 8:53 pm

MURPH wrote:My LSAT score is maxed out. I don't think I can improve. Nor can I change my GPA from 1997. So if I were to wait, I would be banking on 1.) getting my application in early. 2.) Taking advantage of applying ED somewhere, which I didn't do this year and 3.) some minor unsubstantial improvements in my PS, LORs, etc.
That ain't much but it could kick me into the T14. If I played my cards right I could land a spot at Duke, Penn or UVA maybe. I could also work and make a lot of $$.


I see. Well, it appears you and I have vastly different dilemmas, with very different thresholds, but within the same broader issue. I'm shooting for improved LSAT so that I can land a handful of top 30s, and also good $$ offers from the cardozos of the world.
You're trying to crack the T14. Not knowing where you've been accepted, I'm inclined to say you should roll with where you get in this summer (esp. considering what you say is a limited ability to improve on either LSAT or GPA). But that's just my two cents. You'd be taking advice from a law school orphan! :wink:

AdamatUCF
Posts: 173
Joined: Tue Sep 22, 2009 12:34 am

Re: GULC 2010 WL'ers

Postby AdamatUCF » Tue Jun 01, 2010 9:55 pm

MURPH wrote:My LSAT score is maxed out. I don't think I can improve. Nor can I change my GPA from 1997. So if I were to wait, I would be banking on 1.) getting my application in early. 2.) Taking advantage of applying ED somewhere, which I didn't do this year and 3.) some minor unsubstantial improvements in my PS, LORs, etc.
That ain't much but it could kick me into the T14. If I played my cards right I could land a spot at Duke, Penn or UVA maybe. I could also work and make a lot of $$.


Doesn't NW love high-LSAT splitters with massive work experience?

ED there and you could be solid.

User avatar
MURPH
Posts: 854
Joined: Wed Dec 10, 2008 12:20 am

Re: GULC 2010 WL'ers

Postby MURPH » Wed Jun 02, 2010 4:39 am

I am in at UCLA this year. I also have a GI Bill that is portable and most schools offer some type of yellow ribbon scholarships to veterans. I am waitlisted at Penn, Vandy, Duke, NW, Cornell, WUSTL and of course GULC.

The benefits of waiting are: I could make a lot of money. I am a registered nurse and there is plenty of work available. I didn't work as much as I could have this year because I was volunteering one day a week at the ACLU and taking classes part time. My wife hates the thought of moving, she grew up here in Hawaii and if I drag her off to some snow covered or smog ridden city she will hate it. (Who knows, I keep telling her the mainland is that scarey.) She would probably be happy with another year in Hawaii. I could also work on an application for a joint degree program, which I was going to do as a 1L anyway. It will be easier to do as a 0L I think.
I also think applying early (Sept 1st) will be a benefit. With the experience I gained this year I think I can work the financial aid system a bit better too. I did everything too late this year.

The negatives are: I don't really like my career anymore and I've wanted to get out for a while. It is a lot easier working when I know that a change is coming and I won't be doing this forever. I am so close that I am afraid if I don't do it now I'll never go to law school. A lot of things could happen. I'll basically have to spend 12 more months in limbo.

DanInALionsDen
Posts: 296
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 1:00 am

Re: GULC 2010 WL'ers

Postby DanInALionsDen » Wed Jun 02, 2010 6:17 am

MURPH wrote:I am in at UCLA this year. I also have a GI Bill that is portable and most schools offer some type of yellow ribbon scholarships to veterans. I am waitlisted at Penn, Vandy, Duke, NW, Cornell, WUSTL and of course GULC.

The benefits of waiting are: I could make a lot of money. I am a registered nurse and there is plenty of work available. I didn't work as much as I could have this year because I was volunteering one day a week at the ACLU and taking classes part time. My wife hates the thought of moving, she grew up here in Hawaii and if I drag her off to some snow covered or smog ridden city she will hate it. (Who knows, I keep telling her the mainland is that scarey.) She would probably be happy with another year in Hawaii. I could also work on an application for a joint degree program, which I was going to do as a 1L anyway. It will be easier to do as a 0L I think.
I also think applying early (Sept 1st) will be a benefit. With the experience I gained this year I think I can work the financial aid system a bit better too. I did everything too late this year.

The negatives are: I don't really like my career anymore and I've wanted to get out for a while. It is a lot easier working when I know that a change is coming and I won't be doing this forever. I am so close that I am afraid if I don't do it now I'll never go to law school. A lot of things could happen. I'll basically have to spend 12 more months in limbo.


I think you have pretty decent softs. Anything military is usually held in the highest regard, and generally only military service and the peace corp. are considered "strong softs." That said, usually the benefit of a year off is that you can study hard and raise your LSAT, but your LSAT is already extremely high. Do you think you can raise it higher? Obviously your GPA is set in stone, so the LSAT only real variable I see other than the timing of your application (which my own cycle has convinced me is a legitimate concern). Even with better timing, after looking at Law School Predictor and LSN I don't see the T14 happening with your current numbers, even at the notoriously splitter friendly Northwestern. You might have a shot at Cornell, but I think, unless you are sure you can raise your LSAT to 177-180, you shouldn't wait.

User avatar
MURPH
Posts: 854
Joined: Wed Dec 10, 2008 12:20 am

Re: GULC 2010 WL'ers

Postby MURPH » Wed Jun 02, 2010 6:24 am

I don't think I am willing to gamble on a higher score. I got 170 the first time. I tutored and studied for about 9 months to get 175. I could get luck if I tried again but I was doing my best.

User avatar
Lurkster
Posts: 190
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2008 12:00 am

Re: GULC 2010 WL'ers

Postby Lurkster » Wed Jun 02, 2010 12:37 pm

A sub 3.0 splitter who already has a 175 shouldn't retake, even if they could possibly improve. There's no real point. At 175 said splitter is already above the 75th for any school that would accept them.

MURPH, if you are looking for the closest thing to a sure thing that is possible for next cycle, ED to one of UVA/GULC/NU would be the way to go. I know that you have a different background than most, but still, Penn is unlikely even with ED (I'm a nontrad with similar numbers to yours, went that route, and am riding the WL just like you) and Duke would be almost impossible with your GPA.

User avatar
pertristis
Posts: 374
Joined: Fri Jul 31, 2009 12:29 pm

Re: GULC 2010 WL'ers

Postby pertristis » Wed Jun 02, 2010 4:46 pm

I think EDing at NU or UVa is your best choice. NU drools over WE, and UVa drools over military (certainly more than any other T14 of which I'm aware).

User avatar
stratocophic
Posts: 2207
Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2009 6:24 pm

Re: GULC 2010 WL'ers

Postby stratocophic » Thu Jun 03, 2010 12:31 am

MURPH wrote:My LSAT score is maxed out. I don't think I can improve. Nor can I change my GPA from 1997. So if I were to wait, I would be banking on 1.) getting my application in early. 2.) Taking advantage of applying ED somewhere, which I didn't do this year and 3.) some minor unsubstantial improvements in my PS, LORs, etc.
That ain't much but it could kick me into the T14. If I played my cards right I could land a spot at Duke, Penn or UVA maybe. I could also work and make a lot of $$.

Duke. Does. Not. Like. Splitters. Sub-3.4 GPAs (non-URM, of course) will not be attending Duke. Why does TLS not get this? Check LSN if you don't believe me, folks, and if you doubt LSN, check Duke's LSAC info page, where the odds are presented as something like 2/500. Seriously.

No fault of yours, Murph. The unwarranted optimism's pretty widespread around these parts. I'm not bitter that I'm WLed at all; facts is facts.

User avatar
tommytahoe
Posts: 548
Joined: Sat Feb 14, 2009 2:46 pm

Re: GULC 2010 WL'ers

Postby tommytahoe » Thu Jun 03, 2010 12:39 am

stratocophic wrote:
MURPH wrote:My LSAT score is maxed out. I don't think I can improve. Nor can I change my GPA from 1997. So if I were to wait, I would be banking on 1.) getting my application in early. 2.) Taking advantage of applying ED somewhere, which I didn't do this year and 3.) some minor unsubstantial improvements in my PS, LORs, etc.
That ain't much but it could kick me into the T14. If I played my cards right I could land a spot at Duke, Penn or UVA maybe. I could also work and make a lot of $$.

Duke. Does. Not. Like. Splitters. Sub-3.4 GPAs (non-URM, of course) will not be attending Duke. Why does TLS not get this? Check LSN if you don't believe me, folks, and if you doubt LSN, check Duke's LSAC info page, where the odds are presented as something like 2/500. Seriously.

No fault of yours, Murph. The unwarranted optimism's pretty widespread around these parts. I'm not bitter that I'm WLed at all; facts is facts.

"If I played my cards right I could land a spot at Duke, Penn or UVA maybe"

It appears MURPH does get it. I think he's already expressed that he is up against some stiff odds at some schools, incl. Duke. If he believed that Duke were an easy get, he wouldn't put it out there as a scenario that could obtain, maybe, only if he played his cards right, etc...

User avatar
Regionality
Posts: 789
Joined: Thu Feb 25, 2010 5:13 am

Re: GULC 2010 WL'ers

Postby Regionality » Thu Jun 03, 2010 1:21 am

tommytahoe wrote:
stratocophic wrote:
MURPH wrote:My LSAT score is maxed out. I don't think I can improve. Nor can I change my GPA from 1997. So if I were to wait, I would be banking on 1.) getting my application in early. 2.) Taking advantage of applying ED somewhere, which I didn't do this year and 3.) some minor unsubstantial improvements in my PS, LORs, etc.
That ain't much but it could kick me into the T14. If I played my cards right I could land a spot at Duke, Penn or UVA maybe. I could also work and make a lot of $$.

Duke. Does. Not. Like. Splitters. Sub-3.4 GPAs (non-URM, of course) will not be attending Duke. Why does TLS not get this? Check LSN if you don't believe me, folks, and if you doubt LSN, check Duke's LSAC info page, where the odds are presented as something like 2/500. Seriously.

No fault of yours, Murph. The unwarranted optimism's pretty widespread around these parts. I'm not bitter that I'm WLed at all; facts is facts.

"If I played my cards right I could land a spot at Duke, Penn or UVA maybe"

It appears MURPH does get it. I think he's already expressed that he is up against some stiff odds at some schools, incl. Duke. If he believed that Duke were an easy get, he wouldn't put it out there as a scenario that could obtain, maybe, only if he played his cards right, etc...


Just to extend the analogy...if I always played my cards correctly at blackjack, I would still lose money in the long run. I think the point is that if it's really 2/500 people accepted with less than 3.4 (I didn't bother to check the stat...) then no matter how well someone plays their cards, they still, in all likelihood, won't get in with that GPA.

User avatar
tommytahoe
Posts: 548
Joined: Sat Feb 14, 2009 2:46 pm

Re: GULC 2010 WL'ers

Postby tommytahoe » Thu Jun 03, 2010 1:30 am

Regionality wrote:
tommytahoe wrote:
stratocophic wrote:
MURPH wrote:My LSAT score is maxed out. I don't think I can improve. Nor can I change my GPA from 1997. So if I were to wait, I would be banking on 1.) getting my application in early. 2.) Taking advantage of applying ED somewhere, which I didn't do this year and 3.) some minor unsubstantial improvements in my PS, LORs, etc.
That ain't much but it could kick me into the T14. If I played my cards right I could land a spot at Duke, Penn or UVA maybe. I could also work and make a lot of $$.

Duke. Does. Not. Like. Splitters. Sub-3.4 GPAs (non-URM, of course) will not be attending Duke. Why does TLS not get this? Check LSN if you don't believe me, folks, and if you doubt LSN, check Duke's LSAC info page, where the odds are presented as something like 2/500. Seriously.

No fault of yours, Murph. The unwarranted optimism's pretty widespread around these parts. I'm not bitter that I'm WLed at all; facts is facts.

"If I played my cards right I could land a spot at Duke, Penn or UVA maybe"

It appears MURPH does get it. I think he's already expressed that he is up against some stiff odds at some schools, incl. Duke. If he believed that Duke were an easy get, he wouldn't put it out there as a scenario that could obtain, maybe, only if he played his cards right, etc...


Just to extend the analogy...if I always played my cards correctly at blackjack, I would still lose money in the long run. I think the point is that if it's really 2/500 people accepted with less than 3.4 (I didn't bother to check the stat...) then no matter how well someone plays their cards, they still, in all likelihood, won't get in with that GPA.

Touche, regionality. The greater point, which I will not cede, is that we on TLS get it. :wink:

User avatar
stratocophic
Posts: 2207
Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2009 6:24 pm

Re: GULC 2010 WL'ers

Postby stratocophic » Thu Jun 03, 2010 1:38 am

Regionality wrote:
tommytahoe wrote:
stratocophic wrote:
MURPH wrote:My LSAT score is maxed out. I don't think I can improve. Nor can I change my GPA from 1997. So if I were to wait, I would be banking on 1.) getting my application in early. 2.) Taking advantage of applying ED somewhere, which I didn't do this year and 3.) some minor unsubstantial improvements in my PS, LORs, etc.
That ain't much but it could kick me into the T14. If I played my cards right I could land a spot at Duke, Penn or UVA maybe. I could also work and make a lot of $$.

Duke. Does. Not. Like. Splitters. Sub-3.4 GPAs (non-URM, of course) will not be attending Duke. Why does TLS not get this? Check LSN if you don't believe me, folks, and if you doubt LSN, check Duke's LSAC info page, where the odds are presented as something like 2/500. Seriously.

No fault of yours, Murph. The unwarranted optimism's pretty widespread around these parts. I'm not bitter that I'm WLed at all; facts is facts.

"If I played my cards right I could land a spot at Duke, Penn or UVA maybe"

It appears MURPH does get it. I think he's already expressed that he is up against some stiff odds at some schools, incl. Duke. If he believed that Duke were an easy get, he wouldn't put it out there as a scenario that could obtain, maybe, only if he played his cards right, etc...


Just to extend the analogy...if I always played my cards correctly at blackjack, I would still lose money in the long run. I think the point is that if it's really 2/500 people accepted with less than 3.4 (I didn't bother to check the stat...) then no matter how well someone plays their cards, they still, in all likelihood, won't get in with that GPA.
http://officialguide.lsac.org/SearchResults/SchoolPage_PDFs/LSAC_LawSchoolDescription/LSAC5156.pdf

I'll freely admit that a 9-10% chance of acceptance is much, much better than 2/500, so chalk this one up to my poor memory :wink: I applied to Duke as a splitter knowing that there were long odds that I would be accepted, and I'm not discouraging anyone from doing the same in any way, shape, or form. At the same time, go in knowing that the odds of being accepted are very, very low. Dear TLS: See this link and learn from it. Advise splitters to apply to Penn, UVA, GTown, even Michigan. Just don't advise them to apply to Duke and believe that you're doing anything other than boosting Duke's selectivity score.

Edit: Also, take into account that even if only a few of those applicants were URMs, the odds drop by 25% or more for non-URM splitters.

Jamaica88
Posts: 9
Joined: Wed May 26, 2010 9:44 pm

Re: GULC 2010 WL'ers

Postby Jamaica88 » Thu Jun 03, 2010 10:04 pm

After reading through some of the posts, I saw that most people have been told to send emails to "lawcenterwaitlist@law.georgetown.edu" and I got a little scared because I have been told to correspond with "lawwaitlist@law.georgetown.edu". Has anyone else been using this email?

User avatar
lateforthesky16
Posts: 225
Joined: Mon Jan 19, 2009 11:05 pm

Re: GULC 2010 WL'ers

Postby lateforthesky16 » Thu Jun 03, 2010 10:40 pm

Jamaica88 wrote:After reading through some of the posts, I saw that most people have been told to send emails to "lawcenterwaitlist@law.georgetown.edu" and I got a little scared because I have been told to correspond with "lawwaitlist@law.georgetown.edu". Has anyone else been using this email?




yeah that's the email i was told to respond to initially when I received the first "confirm your interest, we'll be reviewing your app for a PT spot" email. I didn't get in though and I've just been using the other email since then.

User avatar
MURPH
Posts: 854
Joined: Wed Dec 10, 2008 12:20 am

Re: GULC 2010 WL'ers

Postby MURPH » Fri Jun 04, 2010 1:01 am

stratocophic wrote:
Regionality wrote:
tommytahoe wrote:
stratocophic wrote:Duke. Does. Not. Like. Splitters. Sub-3.4 GPAs (non-URM, of course) will not be attending Duke. Why does TLS not get this? Check LSN if you don't believe me, folks, and if you doubt LSN, check Duke's LSAC info page, where the odds are presented as something like 2/500. Seriously.

No fault of yours, Murph. The unwarranted optimism's pretty widespread around these parts. I'm not bitter that I'm WLed at all; facts is facts.

"If I played my cards right I could land a spot at Duke, Penn or UVA maybe"

It appears MURPH does get it. I think he's already expressed that he is up against some stiff odds at some schools, incl. Duke. If he believed that Duke were an easy get, he wouldn't put it out there as a scenario that could obtain, maybe, only if he played his cards right, etc...


Just to extend the analogy...if I always played my cards correctly at blackjack, I would still lose money in the long run. I think the point is that if it's really 2/500 people accepted with less than 3.4 (I didn't bother to check the stat...) then no matter how well someone plays their cards, they still, in all likelihood, won't get in with that GPA.
http://officialguide.lsac.org/SearchResults/SchoolPage_PDFs/LSAC_LawSchoolDescription/LSAC5156.pdf

I'll freely admit that a 9-10% chance of acceptance is much, much better than 2/500, so chalk this one up to my poor memory :wink: I applied to Duke as a splitter knowing that there were long odds that I would be accepted, and I'm not discouraging anyone from doing the same in any way, shape, or form. At the same time, go in knowing that the odds of being accepted are very, very low. Dear TLS: See this link and learn from it. Advise splitters to apply to Penn, UVA, GTown, even Michigan. Just don't advise them to apply to Duke and believe that you're doing anything other than boosting Duke's selectivity score.

Edit: Also, take into account that even if only a few of those applicants were URMs, the odds drop by 25% or more for non-URM splitters.

Honestly, when I started thinking about law school a few years ago. I thought I would just be lucky to get into University of Hawaii. (my local state school) It wasn't until I started doing well on the LSAT that I even thought I might have a chance at a top school. But I got pretty ambitious pretty fast. The opportunities offered to graduates of top law schools are better than anything I expected when I first got into this. I am really lucky to have gotten as far as I have. Still, it nags me to think I might have not taken some advantage in the admissions process or left some thing unchecked.
I think Stratocophic and Regionality are right. Duke doesn't like splitters. I've done something right to still be on their waitlist because, looking at the last three cycles on LSN I should be rejected by now. I think in the morning I am going to make some phone calls to the adcoms offices. I want to ask them about reapplying next year. I'll start calling the 'just outside the T14' schools that I am waitlisted at: Vandy and WUSTL, then work my way up the list and see what the adcoms think of it.
I've sort of been bugging out thinking that if I don't go to law school this year then I'll never do it. That is pretty silly. Waiting a year is worth considering. If the adcoms tell me that I have a very good chance of getting in next cycle I'll consider it. I got a good job and can work overtime to save money for a year. Thanks for all the discussion, Tommy and everyone else.


edit. I called WUSTL. They offered me admission and a 10K/yr scholarship this morning. Wow.

User avatar
SilverE2
Posts: 931
Joined: Wed Aug 20, 2008 10:04 pm

Re: GULC 2010 WL'ers

Postby SilverE2 » Fri Jun 04, 2010 2:26 pm

Is it June 8th yet.

User avatar
lateforthesky16
Posts: 225
Joined: Mon Jan 19, 2009 11:05 pm

Re: GULC 2010 WL'ers

Postby lateforthesky16 » Fri Jun 04, 2010 9:59 pm

SilverE2 wrote:Is it June 8th yet.






yeah seriously. thoughts on whether they'll make any offers?

User avatar
tommytahoe
Posts: 548
Joined: Sat Feb 14, 2009 2:46 pm

Re: GULC 2010 WL'ers

Postby tommytahoe » Fri Jun 04, 2010 10:17 pm

lateforthesky16 wrote:
SilverE2 wrote:Is it June 8th yet.






yeah seriously. thoughts on whether they'll make any offers?


I have zero insights into that question. In fact, all I'm going on is the idea (gleaned from somewhere, way back when) that although less offers are expected this time around, it is def. possible that they need to make at least some. But "possible" is the take-away I got.

User avatar
MURPH
Posts: 854
Joined: Wed Dec 10, 2008 12:20 am

Re: GULC 2010 WL'ers

Postby MURPH » Sat Jun 05, 2010 6:51 am

I called GULC yesterday morning. I spoke to someone about admissions. They are really tight on FT spots but they are expecting PT openings. The person I spoke to was encouraging me to take PT but I have a GI Bill and Yellow Ribbon scholarship and my benefits decrease significantly if I am not FT.
We also discussed reapplying for next cycle. She made no promises because this year was competitive and no one knows if next year will be better or worse. If I applied early I would be at an advantage. If I applied ED she didn't garauntee anything but she made it pretty clear that ED would put me over the edge.
To summarize: you can increase your chances by going PT, applying early, and applying ED.

nymario
Posts: 239
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2010 7:57 pm

Re: GULC 2010 WL'ers

Postby nymario » Sat Jun 05, 2010 8:40 am

MURPH. I'd re-examine your GI Benefits. With PT programs (at more than half of the minimum credits per term), you can still claim the BAH/Housing allowance, and the per credit payout is the same. It is at the school's discretion whether to apply the full Yellow Ribbon. Nevertheless, DC Post 9/11 Benefits are horrible compared to, for example, New York. Since the BAH is by far the absolute best part in DC (with such a low per credit payout), you're actually coming away with far more money in absolute terms if you do 4 years.

User avatar
MURPH
Posts: 854
Joined: Wed Dec 10, 2008 12:20 am

Re: GULC 2010 WL'ers

Postby MURPH » Sat Jun 05, 2010 2:24 pm

Thanks I'll look at that again.

User avatar
SummerLaw
Posts: 171
Joined: Mon Dec 21, 2009 4:23 pm

Re: GULC 2010 WL'ers

Postby SummerLaw » Mon Jun 07, 2010 1:08 pm

Anyone under review??

User avatar
SilverE2
Posts: 931
Joined: Wed Aug 20, 2008 10:04 pm

Re: GULC 2010 WL'ers

Postby SilverE2 » Mon Jun 07, 2010 1:21 pm

SummerLaw wrote:Anyone under review??


Not me...

I bet we don't hear anything until the last moment like last time.




Return to “Law School Acceptances, Denials, and Waitlists”