BYU 2010

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erico
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Re: BYU 2010

Postby erico » Mon Mar 08, 2010 3:58 pm

Zoomba200 wrote:
sundevil77 wrote:
Zoomba200 wrote:haha. Bloodbath. Genius.

I agree. I was speaking with a friend about BYU Law the other day and came up with the same formula for the atmosphere at BYU. Married + Sober + UG overachiever = Ultra-Studious Law Students


I'm curious...do you or your friend go to BYU Law? If so, how competitive do you think the law school really is compared to other schools? (not trying to be argumentative, I just want perspective on the issue) I get the sense that law school in and of itself is competitive.

I'm just thinking out loud, but it seems like cost of attendance could be something working in BYU's favor for it being less comeptitive than its peers. Many of these students, facing $100K+ in debt, will undoubtedly feel the extreme pressure to get a BigLaw job. The prospect of crippling debt could arguably make these schools much more competitive than BYU.



I do not attend BYU, but I live in Utah and have several friends/relatives who have gone to both BYU and Utah Law. I'd like to say I have personal experience, but I have only heard what the schools are like from these secondhand accounts. I would imagine many of the people posting on here know people who have attended, so my knowledge is probably at the same level as anyone else's, but the impression I have gotten from graduates of both BYU and Utah is that there is definite difference in the competitiveness between the students at BYU and Utah.


I think BYU's level of competition is well known (to potential employers) and thus can have a positive effect.

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yeast master
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Re: BYU 2010

Postby yeast master » Mon Mar 08, 2010 3:59 pm

erico wrote:
yeast master wrote:
erico wrote:I spoke with Dean Hernandez and was accepted this morning. Pretty stoked but I don't think I'll be able to attend ASD on 3/26. I was thinking about visiting in April. Do you guys know anything about their intellectual property ciriculum offerings? I know there's one other guy on here interested in patent law (PhD right?). Anyways, I'm happy to have BYU as a major contender and hopefully can learn more soon.


Yeah, I'm almost a biology PhD. A recent grad I spoke with was happy with the patent law course offerings. He listed something like 4 to 6 IP-specific courses he took. He also got course credit for IP moot court competition.

I've been in touch with one or two EE 3L's at BYU who have good jobs lined up. You're lucky to be in an in-demand field.

You gonna try to do the Patent Bar before the fall? I'm slowly working through the relevant sections of the MPEP. It's pretty interesting stuff.


That sounds like plenty of courses. From what I hear, the courses you take are practically a non-factor. The firm will teach you everything you need to know.

That's good to hear about the EE 3L's. Eases the mind a bit. I am lucky and blessed, no doubt.

I really want to take the patent bar in June because I'm getting married end of June. I think having that under my belt will be a step up for summer employment opportunities. I need to check out the MPEP. Are you planning on doing a PLI course or something along those lines? I need to start studying ASAP.


I'm going to try to do the patent bar without a course. I just hate spending money. I think it's doable, but not without some guidance. First of all, you have to have a good handle on how patent law works in general. For that, I've found a good, readable textbook. Next, you need to know what areas of the MPEP to focus on. I've found that info. online at various forums and such. Finally, you need the old tests from the early 2000's to study. Those are also available online. I've read the textbook a couple times and am working through the heavily tested sections of the MPEP right now. Pretty soon, I'll start working through the old exams. I hope to pass before the fall, but it'll be tight with other obligations.

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Veritas
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Re: BYU 2010

Postby Veritas » Mon Mar 08, 2010 3:59 pm

erico wrote:I spoke with Dean Hernandez and was accepted this morning. Pretty stoked but I don't think I'll be able to attend ASD on 3/26. I was thinking about visiting in April. Do you guys know anything about their intellectual property ciriculum offerings? I know there's one other guy on here interested in patent law (PhD right?). Anyways, I'm happy to have BYU as a major contender and hopefully can learn more soon.

woohoo! congrats! :D

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Padimud
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Re: BYU 2010

Postby Padimud » Mon Mar 08, 2010 4:00 pm

yeast master wrote:
TaipeiMort wrote:I would expect BYU to be much more cut throat than almost any school anywhere.

At BYU Law you have and extreme percentage of high-GPA white male overachievers. Because their GPA is very high in relation to their relative LSAT score, I would expect a good percentage of students to have a similar psychological imprint which tells them that "an extreme number of total study hours can overcome any lacking in cognitive ability." Mix in a large number of high GPA, high LSAT students who have self selected because of personal religious reasons (which you don't see in almost any other place), and you have a hyper-competitive student body.

Thereafter, look at social issues; Students largely all have families and a ton on the line because of this, many are imprinted with a manifest-destiny-esque ideology which makes them feel they are owed future success, and many are less-outgoing because they already have their own families.

Finally, apply the downward pressure from the job market. There are a ridiculously low number of positions for qualified candidates. Additionally, something that many potential BYU students miss is that many of the Biglaw and Midlaw jobs coming out of BYU are going to women and minority candidates.

=

Bloodbath


You've offered reasons for the putative high level of competition, but you haven't offered reasons for cut-throat-ness. I continue to contend that there is an important distinction there.

While some of what you say makes sense, you make some questionable assertions and offer a lot of just-so psychologizing that would be pointless to argue about. One thing I will say is that the notion that many of the Biglaw and Midlaw jobs are going to women and minorities is no more true at BYU than at other places, so it's still reasonable to look at NLJ250 placement stats to get a sense of one's opportunities at BYU relative to peer schools.


so it's still reasonable to look at NLJ250 placement stats. . . Does anyone have a link to these stats for 2008 or 2009?

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Zoomba200
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Re: BYU 2010

Postby Zoomba200 » Mon Mar 08, 2010 4:20 pm

Padimud wrote: so it's still reasonable to look at NLJ250 placement stats. . . Does anyone have a link to these stats for 2008 or 2009?


http://pdfserver.amlaw.com/nlj/law%20sc ... page12.pdf

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sundevil77
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Re: BYU 2010

Postby sundevil77 » Mon Mar 08, 2010 4:30 pm

Zoomba200 wrote:
Padimud wrote: so it's still reasonable to look at NLJ250 placement stats. . . Does anyone have a link to these stats for 2008 or 2009?


http://pdfserver.amlaw.com/nlj/law%20sc ... page12.pdf


Not bad. Slightly outperforms its USNWR ranking. Basically, you need to graduate in the top 20% of the class.

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erico
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Re: BYU 2010

Postby erico » Mon Mar 08, 2010 4:47 pm

yeast master wrote:
erico wrote:
yeast master wrote:
erico wrote:I spoke with Dean Hernandez and was accepted this morning. Pretty stoked but I don't think I'll be able to attend ASD on 3/26. I was thinking about visiting in April. Do you guys know anything about their intellectual property ciriculum offerings? I know there's one other guy on here interested in patent law (PhD right?). Anyways, I'm happy to have BYU as a major contender and hopefully can learn more soon.


Yeah, I'm almost a biology PhD. A recent grad I spoke with was happy with the patent law course offerings. He listed something like 4 to 6 IP-specific courses he took. He also got course credit for IP moot court competition.

I've been in touch with one or two EE 3L's at BYU who have good jobs lined up. You're lucky to be in an in-demand field.

You gonna try to do the Patent Bar before the fall? I'm slowly working through the relevant sections of the MPEP. It's pretty interesting stuff.


That sounds like plenty of courses. From what I hear, the courses you take are practically a non-factor. The firm will teach you everything you need to know.

That's good to hear about the EE 3L's. Eases the mind a bit. I am lucky and blessed, no doubt.

I really want to take the patent bar in June because I'm getting married end of June. I think having that under my belt will be a step up for summer employment opportunities. I need to check out the MPEP. Are you planning on doing a PLI course or something along those lines? I need to start studying ASAP.


I'm going to try to do the patent bar without a course. I just hate spending money. I think it's doable, but not without some guidance. First of all, you have to have a good handle on how patent law works in general. For that, I've found a good, readable textbook. Next, you need to know what areas of the MPEP to focus on. I've found that info. online at various forums and such. Finally, you need the old tests from the early 2000's to study. Those are also available online. I've read the textbook a couple times and am working through the heavily tested sections of the MPEP right now. Pretty soon, I'll start working through the old exams. I hope to pass before the fall, but it'll be tight with other obligations.


From what I hear, you can buy the course used and flip it when you're done for minimal losses. Unfortunately they seem to be ~ $900. Which textbook is it that you're reading? I'm going to buckle down and get started on this stuff tonight after work.

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Padimud
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Re: BYU 2010

Postby Padimud » Mon Mar 08, 2010 5:00 pm

Zoomba200 wrote:
Padimud wrote: so it's still reasonable to look at NLJ250 placement stats. . . Does anyone have a link to these stats for 2008 or 2009?


http://pdfserver.amlaw.com/nlj/law%20sc ... page12.pdf


Sweet. Thanks.

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yeast master
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Re: BYU 2010

Postby yeast master » Mon Mar 08, 2010 5:07 pm

erico wrote:From what I hear, you can buy the course used and flip it when you're done for minimal losses. Unfortunately they seem to be ~ $900. Which textbook is it that you're reading? I'm going to buckle down and get started on this stuff tonight after work.


Patent Law by Janice Mueller.

I know that buying a course and re-selling it should work out OK, but I've become such a penny pincher lately that laying out that kind of money when there's a chance I won't get it back stresses me out. There's also an element of pride going on. I don't want to need an overpriced course. It's my version of stickin' it to the man. Pretty dumb. But I'm pretty sure it'll work out OK. I've heard of a lot of people doing it without spending big bucks.

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erico
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Re: BYU 2010

Postby erico » Mon Mar 08, 2010 5:19 pm

yeast master wrote:
erico wrote:From what I hear, you can buy the course used and flip it when you're done for minimal losses. Unfortunately they seem to be ~ $900. Which textbook is it that you're reading? I'm going to buckle down and get started on this stuff tonight after work.


Patent Law by Janice Mueller.

I know that buying a course and re-selling it should work out OK, but I've become such a penny pincher lately that laying out that kind of money when there's a chance I won't get it back stresses me out. There's also an element of pride going on. I don't want to need an overpriced course. It's my version of stickin' it to the man. Pretty dumb. But I'm pretty sure it'll work out OK. I've heard of a lot of people doing it without spending big bucks.


Thanks!

Yeah, I hear you with stickin' it to the man. With a wedding in June and quitting my job to go to school, I also need to pinch the pennies... unfortunate reality. It's true as well, you never know how long it will take to sell the course once you're done with it. So I think that's a good idea to go without it if possible.

adryge
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Re: BYU 2010

Postby adryge » Tue Mar 09, 2010 6:01 pm

For those of you who have already been accepted, how long ago did you apply?

I applied in mid-January and haven't heard anything back. My file has been "under review" for over a month now.

Any guesses on what my chances are with 162/3.68. I have an undergrad and grad degree from BYU and have been working postgraduate for 2 years now.

Any advice or thoughts would be appreciated.

Thanks!

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Zoomba200
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Re: BYU 2010

Postby Zoomba200 » Tue Mar 09, 2010 7:30 pm

adryge wrote:For those of you who have already been accepted, how long ago did you apply?

I applied in mid-January and haven't heard anything back. My file has been "under review" for over a month now.

Any guesses on what my chances are with 162/3.68. I have an undergrad and grad degree from BYU and have been working postgraduate for 2 years now.

Any advice or thoughts would be appreciated.

Thanks!


I have no idea what your chances are, but I have almost identical numbers and I have been waiting since mid-November.

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justcap
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Re: BYU 2010

Postby justcap » Wed Mar 10, 2010 2:59 am

adryge wrote:For those of you who have already been accepted, how long ago did you apply?

I applied in mid-January and haven't heard anything back. My file has been "under review" for over a month now.

I applied in Oct, went complete in Nov, and was accepted just before Christmas.

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sundevil77
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Re: BYU 2010

Postby sundevil77 » Wed Mar 10, 2010 4:58 pm

How many of you are planning on going to ASD on the 29th? I was set on going, but now I'm wondering if it wouldn't be better to set up a visit outside of ASD. I feel like such a visit might be a bit more personalized. I could be wrong, though. Maybe the ASD will be more beneficial in getting a feel for the school.

Torvon
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Re: BYU 2010

Postby Torvon » Wed Mar 10, 2010 5:02 pm

Did anyone else get some emails from BYU alumni offering to answer questions and such? Also a phone call from a current student offering to set up an interview with a professor?

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Padimud
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Re: BYU 2010

Postby Padimud » Wed Mar 10, 2010 5:11 pm

Torvon wrote:Did anyone else get some emails from BYU alumni offering to answer questions and such? Also a phone call from a current student offering to set up an interview with a professor?


I haven't had any of that. However they did call to schedule a dinner with a professor.

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erico
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Re: BYU 2010

Postby erico » Wed Mar 10, 2010 5:13 pm

sundevil77 wrote:How many of you are planning on going to ASD on the 29th? I was set on going, but now I'm wondering if it wouldn't be better to set up a visit outside of ASD. I feel like such a visit might be a bit more personalized. I could be wrong, though. Maybe the ASD will be more beneficial in getting a feel for the school.


Monday is just hard for me. I wish it was on a Saturday two weeks later so I'll probably try and schedule my own visit.

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justcap
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Re: BYU 2010

Postby justcap » Thu Mar 11, 2010 1:29 am

Padimud wrote:
Torvon wrote:Did anyone else get some emails from BYU alumni offering to answer questions and such? Also a phone call from a current student offering to set up an interview with a professor?


I haven't had any of that. However they did call to schedule a dinner with a professor.

I got that one too.

And I got a book in the mail from the alumni association entitled "Life in the Law."

Torvon
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Re: BYU 2010

Postby Torvon » Fri Mar 12, 2010 2:14 am

justcap wrote:
Padimud wrote:
Torvon wrote:Did anyone else get some emails from BYU alumni offering to answer questions and such? Also a phone call from a current student offering to set up an interview with a professor?


I haven't had any of that. However they did call to schedule a dinner with a professor.

I got that one too.

And I got a book in the mail from the alumni association entitled "Life in the Law."


Good book.

cle07007
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Re: BYU 2010

Postby cle07007 » Fri Mar 12, 2010 4:02 am

Talked to Dean Hernandez on Wednesday morning, and I've been accepted. He is a very humble man-- something which impressed me a lot about him.

Without scholarship, tuition + cost of living for married should be what ---- 23,000 a year?
What is the estimate?

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Padimud
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Re: BYU 2010

Postby Padimud » Fri Mar 12, 2010 11:29 am

My estimate with no scholarship would be $25,000 - 27,000. But you may be able to do it for $23,000 if you just had a one-bedroom place somewhere.

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tyjole
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Re: BYU 2010

Postby tyjole » Fri Mar 12, 2010 11:39 am

All of my estimates have been in the high twenties approaching 30k a year. I do tend to estimate high though. The fact is, if you're looking at staying in Utah, no other place will be better than BYU.

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TaipeiMort
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Re: BYU 2010

Postby TaipeiMort » Fri Mar 12, 2010 12:23 pm

Hey Guys.

I received an offline pm which suggested to me that my last message about the apparent "bloodbath" at BYU was mean-spirited and meant to detract people from attending BYU.

Let me put a few qualifiers on what I said before and say a few positive things about BYU.

I'll make mention that I am a current BYU undergraduate student. I'll be graduating shortly and attending the University of Chicago for law school. I loved my time at BYU, and believe that it is honestly one of the most special environments in which to gain an education.

My referring to BYU as "cutthroat," or as a "bloodbath" was pure hyperbole and meant to illustrate that BYU is very competitive due to the number of talented, intelligent students. I was not actually insinuating that there are students ripping pages out of each others' horn books or stabbing each other in back corners of the JRCB.

Secondly, I was waxing a little dramatic about BYU grads' relative post-graduation employment prospects. I do believe that one viewing BYU's placement numbers should take into account that the percentage of minorities and female candidates which receive great jobs out of BYU is likely going to match the national average (firms are always looking for qualified female and minority candidates). However, because BYU is skewed white male, this means that a few top-30-percent students may lose out on a prospect or two to another student that they outperformed.

Also, BYU does have strong employment prospects regardless, 20-25% of students are going directly into biglaw. Likewise, the worldwide "Mormon Network" is sealing up great midlaw and international prospects for graduating students. Therefore, I would expect the non-top-25% to still be able to find great placement, definitely out pacing BYU's regionally-oriented peer schools like Indiana-Bloomington, Notre Dame, BU, and and BC.

A few more observations:

BYU should be ranked much higher if the rankings weren't blatantly biased by peer-perception and BYU's apparent lack of "diversity." However, it seems like diversity these days isn't measured in Polynesians, Nepalese, European students, and other culturally diverse students, or a student body that has almost all traveled abroad for two years. Rather, diversity is measured by the number of Black, Latino, and American Indian URMs that attend. Unfortunate and rudely biased to uber-liberal law academia's special-interest-based definition of "disadvantaged," and "diversity."

BYU has amazing faculty for a 20-40 school. I bet objectively it has better faculty than a couple of the 15-25 schools. Also, educational quality is subsequently high.

Finally, BYU is extremely cheap. Do you guys realize that a good percentage of you will have similar initial job prospects to me at Chicago, while graduating with 40k in total debt instead of my cool 200k?

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tyjole
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Re: BYU 2010

Postby tyjole » Fri Mar 12, 2010 1:39 pm

TaipeiMort:

Thank you for your post. I know people got heated up over those previous posts. I think looking at things level-headed and openly shows that BYU has its advantages and disadvantages. I think what you have said is that you really have to do your homework on the schools. BYU is ranked where it is for some reasons, but those reasons really don't affect the quality of education/experience, or the job prospects for those graduating from the school. It is a lesson we all need in knowing that doing your homework and suiting your own priorities is more important than a ranking or even overbeaten criticisms that can be blown out of proportion. Once again thanks, you've done a good job at highlighting both the good and bad of BYU Law.

cle07007
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Re: BYU 2010

Postby cle07007 » Fri Mar 12, 2010 1:45 pm

40k a year in debt would be nice. From the other responses, it looks like it will be more like 75k in debt.




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