BYU 2010 Forum

[cle07007]

Today I scheduled an interview with Dean Hernandez for Wednesday morning, March 10.

[ashkenazy]

Has anyone been accepted without an interview with Dean Hernandez? Looking at previous posts it looks as though the interviews are reserved for $$$$cholarship recipients. I am just hoping to get in...

What previous posters have said is that they plan on interviewing each student (before they are admitted/to offer admittance). I don't think they call those who they don't intend on accepting.

[davipatr]

Here are my stats/story:
UGPA: 2.93 (more on that below)
LSAT: 174-180 (tested last weekend, but I'm >90% confident it will be in that range)
Part NA
BA in Poli Sci from a state school in '07, MBA from BYU in '09

UGPA story: I graduated from HS in 1994 at age 16 and posted horrible grades for a couple of years due to general immaturity. I then left school, got my act together, served a mission, and started taking classes again in 2001. My GPA for the rest of my undergrad, which was done piecemeal due to my having to work full-time, was 3.51. My b-school GPA was 3.49.

I know that splitters are notoriously hard to predict, but do I have any reason to fear that I won't get in at BYU? The only other schools I'm considering are UVa and Vandy. What do you guys think my chances are there? Since my career aim is academia, is the BYU brand strong enough to help me get there? Is there any reason for me to consider taking on the additional ~$100K in debt when I don't have much of an interest in BigLaw?

Thanks for your input.

That's a pretty strong LSAT. If that's what you get I would be shocked if you didn't get in, even though BYU tends to emphasize gpa more, that kind of an LSAT would be really hard to ignore. You may not get a scholarship but you will almost certainly get in.

[Padimud]

I ate dinner tonight with a PT professor at BYU. I discussed the options I have with him and found comfort in his believing that there is more to life than a BYU law education. He spoke honestly and candidly about life in and outside of BYU. Nice to have some additional perspective.

[erico]

I ate dinner tonight with a PT professor at BYU. I discussed the options I have with him and found comfort in his believing that there is more to life than a BYU law education. He spoke honestly and candidly about life in and outside of BYU. Nice to have some additional perspective.

Would you mind sharing any of what he said?

[Padimud]

I ate dinner tonight with a PT professor at BYU. I discussed the options I have with him and found comfort in his believing that there is more to life than a BYU law education. He spoke honestly and candidly about life in and outside of BYU. Nice to have some additional perspective.

Would you mind sharing any of what he said?

It was interesting in the fact that he spoke highly of the education at BYU. However, he candidly told me that he would have attended anywhere else back when he went to law school fifteen years ago. He spoke of the lack of balance of BYU students and how sad it was that BYU is so cut-throat. He even shared an example of a student who left BYU after his first year and went to a T10 school that he found to be less competitive and time-intensive.

He also spoke to the over saturation of lawyers in the Wasatch front and the reality that everyone who wants to stay here are fighting to stay here and those that want out of the state struggle to find the placement they are looking for.

He discussed with me the advantages of all my personal options and although he did not say to choose one over BYU, it made it very clear that he would take a different road then the one that leads to Provo. He told me that some people "need" BYU, while others are fine without it. I have not determined to withdraw from BYU yet, but it did help to gain insight on life there at the law school.

[yeast master]

What do we mean by "cut-throat"? To me, that term implies hostility and aggression. But I haven't heard a single anecdote of behavior that I would consider cut-throat, nor have I heard anything that leads me to believe that that is a fair characterization of the atmosphere at BYU. Have you?

If we're just using cut-throat to mean that it's really hard to outperform other students because they're smart and driven, then I think we should use another term.

[sundevil77]

I ate dinner tonight with a PT professor at BYU. I discussed the options I have with him and found comfort in his believing that there is more to life than a BYU law education. He spoke honestly and candidly about life in and outside of BYU. Nice to have some additional perspective.

Would you mind sharing any of what he said?

It was interesting in the fact that he spoke highly of the education at BYU. However, he candidly told me that he would have attended anywhere else back when he went to law school fifteen years ago. He spoke of the lack of balance of BYU students and how sad it was that BYU is so cut-throat. He even shared an example of a student who left BYU after his first year and went to a T10 school that he found to be less competitive and time-intensive.

He also spoke to the over saturation of lawyers in the Wasatch front and the reality that everyone who wants to stay here are fighting to stay here and those that want out of the state struggle to find the placement they are looking for.

He discussed with me the advantages of all my personal options and although he did not say to choose one over BYU, it made it very clear that he would take a different road then the one that leads to Provo. He told me that some people "need" BYU, while others are fine without it. I have not determined to withdraw from BYU yet, but it did help to gain insight on life there at the law school.

Thanks for the good post, Padimund. I too, would like to know more about what this professor had to say, as I am seriously considering attending BYU. What I'm really considered about are the job prospects after attending BYU. When he referred to the over saturation of lawyers was he specifically referring to BYU grads that want to stay in UT?

Also, if I remember right, you are considering attending ASU over UA? From what I've seen looking at the profiles of big firms in Phoenix, BYU does just about as well, if not better than ASU, and this is ASU's home market. UA outperforms both (its older has a better reputation). Would you really want ASU over BYU/UA?

Edit: Also, how do you set up the dinner with the professor? Through the law school or outside connections? I'm thinking about going to the ASD, but I would much rather prefer the intimate setting you had with this professor.

[Padimud]

What is important to realize as the Master suggested, my terminology may not be correct. By cut-throat he meant over achievement and drive beyond normal law school behavior. The fact that your whole class is sober may have something to do with the environment there. I do not believe there is any malicious or cut-throat behavior in comparison to other schools. He did focus on the lack of balance that seems commonplace at BYU. The over saturation comments were targeted at UT, not the international market. "Attorney's are dime a dozen here, because they all want to live here." My ward along has 4 attorneys and I live where they all have to commute down to Salt Lake.

We had a dinner arranged from outside connections, he is only a PT instructor and has a full career outside the walls of academia.

To answer the ASU/U of A/ BYU contest I have to say it is about preference the Gilbert/Mesa area is very strong within the consideration of Church membership while still allowing for an experience outside of where I have lived and completed my UG. The Phoenix LDS attorney market is huge, and I believe living there (and hopefully placing very high in my class) will allow me more opportunities to network and gain leverage firsthand in that market. Tucson and the U of A did not impress me and though their ranking is higher and reputation better, I would choose ASU over U of A for scholarship and community reasons.

BYU is an amazing place and I hope my comments are not diminishing my opinion of my alma-mater. I love BYU and know that the education there is outstanding. However for me as I complete my due diligence and realize that there are other options for me and my family that are enticing as well.

Hope that helps.

[sundevil77]

What is important to realize as the Master suggested, my terminology may not be correct. By cut-throat he meant over achievement and drive beyond normal law school behavior. The fact that your whole class is sober may have something to do with the environment there. I do not believe there is any malicious or cut-throat behavior in comparison to other schools. He did focus on the lack of balance that seems commonplace at BYU. The over saturation comments were targeted at UT, not the international market. "Attorney's are dime a dozen here, because they all want to live here." My ward along has 4 attorneys and I live where they all have to commute down to Salt Lake.

We had a dinner arranged from outside connections, he is only a PT instructor and has a full career outside the walls of academia.

To answer the ASU/U of A/ BYU contest I have to say it is about preference the Gilbert/Mesa area is very strong within the consideration of Church membership while still allowing for an experience outside of where I have lived and completed my UG. The Phoenix LDS attorney market is huge, and I believe living there (and hopefully placing very high in my class) will allow me more opportunities to network and gain leverage firsthand in that market. Tucson and the U of A did not impress me and though their ranking is higher and reputation better, I would choose ASU over U of A for scholarship and community reasons.

BYU is an amazing place and I hope my comments are not diminishing my opinion of my alma-mater. I love BYU and know that the education there is outstanding. However for me as I complete my due diligence and realize that there are other options for me and my family that are enticing as well.

Hope that helps.

I don't mean to pester you with questions, but firsthand insight is very beneficial...By lack of balance, did he mean that students are overly focused on their studies? Or does he refer to a more general lack of balance due to BYU's "churchy" environment? I'd be interested to know. If it's the former, I'd imagine that most elite law schools are extremely competitive.

On a different note...I don't have any experience with ASU's law school, but I have a bad taste in my mouth after attending ASU UG. It could be that I'd feel that way about any school after 4 years, and it could be that the law school is totally different, but I wanted to give you fair warning.

[Padimud]

What is important to realize as the Master suggested, my terminology may not be correct. By cut-throat he meant over achievement and drive beyond normal law school behavior. The fact that your whole class is sober may have something to do with the environment there. I do not believe there is any malicious or cut-throat behavior in comparison to other schools. He did focus on the lack of balance that seems commonplace at BYU. The over saturation comments were targeted at UT, not the international market. "Attorney's are dime a dozen here, because they all want to live here." My ward along has 4 attorneys and I live where they all have to commute down to Salt Lake.

We had a dinner arranged from outside connections, he is only a PT instructor and has a full career outside the walls of academia.

To answer the ASU/U of A/ BYU contest I have to say it is about preference the Gilbert/Mesa area is very strong within the consideration of Church membership while still allowing for an experience outside of where I have lived and completed my UG. The Phoenix LDS attorney market is huge, and I believe living there (and hopefully placing very high in my class) will allow me more opportunities to network and gain leverage firsthand in that market. Tucson and the U of A did not impress me and though their ranking is higher and reputation better, I would choose ASU over U of A for scholarship and community reasons.

BYU is an amazing place and I hope my comments are not diminishing my opinion of my alma-mater. I love BYU and know that the education there is outstanding. However for me as I complete my due diligence and realize that there are other options for me and my family that are enticing as well.

Hope that helps.

I don't mean to pester you with questions, but firsthand insight is very beneficial...By lack of balance, did he mean that students are overly focused on their studies? Or does he refer to a more general lack of balance due to BYU's "churchy" environment? I'd be interested to know. If it's the former, I'd imagine that most elite law schools are extremely competitive.

On a different note...I don't have any experience with ASU's law school, but I have a bad taste in my mouth after attending ASU UG. It could be that I'd feel that way about any school after 4 years, and it could be that the law school is totally different, but I wanted to give you fair warning.

Just ultra competitive due to over focus on studies.

ASU is only an option, but I too know what their UG is like, and dare say the law school is a huge step up in maturity.

[erico]

I spoke with Dean Hernandez and was accepted this morning. Pretty stoked but I don't think I'll be able to attend ASD on 3/26. I was thinking about visiting in April. Do you guys know anything about their intellectual property ciriculum offerings? I know there's one other guy on here interested in patent law (PhD right?). Anyways, I'm happy to have BYU as a major contender and hopefully can learn more soon.

[TaipeiMort]

.

[sundevil77]

I would expect BYU to be much more cut throat than almost any school anywhere.

At BYU Law you have and extreme percentage of high-GPA white male overachievers. Because their GPA is very high in relation to their relative LSAT score, I would expect a good percentage of students to have a similar psychological imprint which tells them that "an extreme number of total study hours can overcome any lacking in cognitive ability." Mix in a large number of high GPA, high LSAT students who have self selected because of personal religious reasons (which you don't see in almost any other place), and you have a hyper-competitive student body.

Thereafter, look at social issues; Students largely all have families and a ton on the line because of this, many are imprinted with a manifest-destiny-esque ideology which makes them feel they are owed future success, and many are less-outgoing because they already have their own families.

Finally, apply the downward pressure from the job market. There are a ridiculously low number of positions for qualified candidates. Additionally, something that many potential BYU students miss is that many of the Biglaw and Midlaw jobs coming out of BYU are going to women and minority candidates.

=

Bloodbath

I find it hard to believe that BYU students would have any more of a "manifest-destiny-esque ideology" than any other top law school candidate. Browsing the forums on TLS, you'd get the idea that any T14 graduate is owed a $160,000 starting salary BigLaw job.

And, as to the workaholic mentality that most students have, studying a ridiculous number of hours does not equal success in law school.

Your points are well taken, though. I just think they might be a bit over exaggerated.

[erico]

I would expect BYU to be much more cut throat than almost any school anywhere.

At BYU Law you have and extreme percentage of high-GPA white male overachievers. Because their GPA is very high in relation to their relative LSAT score, I would expect a good percentage of students to have a similar psychological imprint which tells them that "an extreme number of total study hours can overcome any lacking in cognitive ability." Mix in a large number of high GPA, high LSAT students who have self selected because of personal religious reasons (which you don't see in almost any other place), and you have a hyper-competitive student body.

Thereafter, look at social issues; Students largely all have families and a ton on the line because of this, many are imprinted with a manifest-destiny-esque ideology which makes them feel they are owed future success, and many are less-outgoing because they already have their own families.

Finally, apply the downward pressure from the job market. There are a ridiculously low number of positions for qualified candidates. Additionally, something that many potential BYU students miss is that many of the Biglaw and Midlaw jobs coming out of BYU are going to women and minority candidates.

=

Bloodbath

Have you talked to any current students? I agree with the previous response. Valid points, just a little dramatic IMO.

[Zoomba200]

haha. Bloodbath. Genius.

I agree. I was speaking with a friend about BYU Law the other day and came up with the same formula for the atmosphere at BYU. Married + Sober + UG overachiever = Ultra-Studious Law Students

[yeast master]

I would expect BYU to be much more cut throat than almost any school anywhere.

At BYU Law you have and extreme percentage of high-GPA white male overachievers. Because their GPA is very high in relation to their relative LSAT score, I would expect a good percentage of students to have a similar psychological imprint which tells them that "an extreme number of total study hours can overcome any lacking in cognitive ability." Mix in a large number of high GPA, high LSAT students who have self selected because of personal religious reasons (which you don't see in almost any other place), and you have a hyper-competitive student body.

Thereafter, look at social issues; Students largely all have families and a ton on the line because of this, many are imprinted with a manifest-destiny-esque ideology which makes them feel they are owed future success, and many are less-outgoing because they already have their own families.

Finally, apply the downward pressure from the job market. There are a ridiculously low number of positions for qualified candidates. Additionally, something that many potential BYU students miss is that many of the Biglaw and Midlaw jobs coming out of BYU are going to women and minority candidates.

=

Bloodbath

You've offered reasons for the putative high level of competition, but you haven't offered reasons for cut-throat-ness. I continue to contend that there is an important distinction there.

While some of what you say makes sense, you make some questionable assertions and offer a lot of just-so psychologizing that would be pointless to argue about. One thing I will say is that the notion that many of the Biglaw and Midlaw jobs are going to women and minorities is no more true at BYU than at other places, so it's still reasonable to look at NLJ250 placement stats to get a sense of one's opportunities at BYU relative to peer schools.

[erico]

I would expect BYU to be much more cut throat than almost any school anywhere.

At BYU Law you have and extreme percentage of high-GPA white male overachievers. Because their GPA is very high in relation to their relative LSAT score, I would expect a good percentage of students to have a similar psychological imprint which tells them that "an extreme number of total study hours can overcome any lacking in cognitive ability." Mix in a large number of high GPA, high LSAT students who have self selected because of personal religious reasons (which you don't see in almost any other place), and you have a hyper-competitive student body.

Thereafter, look at social issues; Students largely all have families and a ton on the line because of this, many are imprinted with a manifest-destiny-esque ideology which makes them feel they are owed future success, and many are less-outgoing because they already have their own families.

Finally, apply the downward pressure from the job market. There are a ridiculously low number of positions for qualified candidates. Additionally, something that many potential BYU students miss is that many of the Biglaw and Midlaw jobs coming out of BYU are going to women and minority candidates.

=

Bloodbath

You've offered reasons for the putative high level of competition, but you haven't offered reasons for cut-throat-ness. I continue to contend that there is an important distinction there.

While some of what you say makes sense, you make some questionable assertions and offer a lot of just-so psychologizing that would be pointless to argue about. One thing I will say is that the notion that many of the Biglaw and Midlaw jobs are going to women and minorities is no more true at BYU than at other places, so it's still reasonable to look at NLJ250 placement stats to get a sense of one's opportunities at BYU relative to peer schools.

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 1&t=108528

I would say it does pretty well compared to its peers.

[yeast master]

I spoke with Dean Hernandez and was accepted this morning. Pretty stoked but I don't think I'll be able to attend ASD on 3/26. I was thinking about visiting in April. Do you guys know anything about their intellectual property ciriculum offerings? I know there's one other guy on here interested in patent law (PhD right?). Anyways, I'm happy to have BYU as a major contender and hopefully can learn more soon.

Yeah, I'm almost a biology PhD. A recent grad I spoke with was happy with the patent law course offerings. He listed something like 4 to 6 IP-specific courses he took. He also got course credit for IP moot court competition.

I've been in touch with one or two EE 3L's at BYU who have good jobs lined up. You're lucky to be in an in-demand field.

You gonna try to do the Patent Bar before the fall? I'm slowly working through the relevant sections of the MPEP. It's pretty interesting stuff.

[wired]

You've offered reasons for the putative high level of competition, but you haven't offered reasons for cut-throat-ness. I continue to contend that there is an important distinction there.

While some of what you say makes sense, you make some questionable assertions and offer a lot of just-so psychologizing that would be pointless to argue about. One thing I will say is that the notion that many of the Biglaw and Midlaw jobs are going to women and minorities is no more true at BYU than at other places, so it's still reasonable to look at NLJ250 placement stats to get a sense of one's opportunities at BYU relative to peer schools.

What is your definition of cutthroat? Is it only students working AGAINST other students? While I think that makes for great reading in 1L, I don't think it actually occurs that much at BYU or anywhere. (I agree that the term itself would lean toward this definition, but I think it has a different meaning than that.) If we define cutthroat as making concessions that the average student would not make at any given school, then I think BYU would definitely rank in there for the cultural reasons stated before. I have a relative clerking for a federal judge who had a BYU clerk a few years before. Their primary complaint against him was that he worked too hard and didn't socialize within the office enough. Obviously n=1, but this supports the notion that a lot of BYU students sacrifice other aspects of their lives in order to "know the material" better.

[sundevil77]

haha. Bloodbath. Genius.

I agree. I was speaking with a friend about BYU Law the other day and came up with the same formula for the atmosphere at BYU. Married + Sober + UG overachiever = Ultra-Studious Law Students

I'm curious...do you or your friend go to BYU Law? If so, how competitive do you think the law school really is compared to other schools? (not trying to be argumentative, I just want perspective on the issue) I get the sense that law school in and of itself is competitive.

I'm just thinking out loud, but it seems like cost of attendance could be something working in BYU's favor for it being less comeptitive than its peers. Many of these students, facing $100K+ in debt, will undoubtedly feel the extreme pressure to get a BigLaw job. The prospect of crippling debt could arguably make these schools much more competitive than BYU.

[erico]

I spoke with Dean Hernandez and was accepted this morning. Pretty stoked but I don't think I'll be able to attend ASD on 3/26. I was thinking about visiting in April. Do you guys know anything about their intellectual property ciriculum offerings? I know there's one other guy on here interested in patent law (PhD right?). Anyways, I'm happy to have BYU as a major contender and hopefully can learn more soon.

Yeah, I'm almost a biology PhD. A recent grad I spoke with was happy with the patent law course offerings. He listed something like 4 to 6 IP-specific courses he took. He also got course credit for IP moot court competition.

I've been in touch with one or two EE 3L's at BYU who have good jobs lined up. You're lucky to be in an in-demand field.

You gonna try to do the Patent Bar before the fall? I'm slowly working through the relevant sections of the MPEP. It's pretty interesting stuff.

That sounds like plenty of courses. From what I hear, the courses you take are practically a non-factor. The firm will teach you everything you need to know.

That's good to hear about the EE 3L's. Eases the mind a bit. I am lucky and blessed, no doubt.

I really want to take the patent bar in June because I'm getting married end of June. I think having that under my belt will be a step up for summer employment opportunities. I need to check out the MPEP. Are you planning on doing a PLI course or something along those lines? I need to start studying ASAP.

[yeast master]

You've offered reasons for the putative high level of competition, but you haven't offered reasons for cut-throat-ness. I continue to contend that there is an important distinction there.

While some of what you say makes sense, you make some questionable assertions and offer a lot of just-so psychologizing that would be pointless to argue about. One thing I will say is that the notion that many of the Biglaw and Midlaw jobs are going to women and minorities is no more true at BYU than at other places, so it's still reasonable to look at NLJ250 placement stats to get a sense of one's opportunities at BYU relative to peer schools.

What is your definition of cutthroat? Is it only students working AGAINST other students? While I think that makes for great reading in 1L, I don't think it actually occurs that much at BYU or anywhere. (I agree that the term itself would lean toward this definition, but I think it has a different meaning than that.) If we define cutthroat as making concessions that the average student would not make at any given school, then I think BYU would definitely rank in there for the cultural reasons stated before. I have a relative clerking for a federal judge who had a BYU clerk a few years before. Their primary complaint against him was that he worked too hard and didn't socialize within the office enough. Obviously n=1, but this supports the notion that a lot of BYU students sacrifice other aspects of their lives in order to "know the material" better.

I may well be alone in understanding cut-throat to imply hostility and aggression. I just can't get past the term itself and the image it brings to mind. Plus, I'm pretty sure the term is often used with that connotation. But if everyone here is just using the term to mean working really hard, then just ignore me.

[Zoomba200]

haha. Bloodbath. Genius.

I agree. I was speaking with a friend about BYU Law the other day and came up with the same formula for the atmosphere at BYU. Married + Sober + UG overachiever = Ultra-Studious Law Students

I'm curious...do you or your friend go to BYU Law? If so, how competitive do you think the law school really is compared to other schools? (not trying to be argumentative, I just want perspective on the issue) I get the sense that law school in and of itself is competitive.

I'm just thinking out loud, but it seems like cost of attendance could be something working in BYU's favor for it being less comeptitive than its peers. Many of these students, facing $100K+ in debt, will undoubtedly feel the extreme pressure to get a BigLaw job. The prospect of crippling debt could arguably make these schools much more competitive than BYU.

I do not attend BYU, but I live in Utah and have several friends/relatives who have gone to both BYU and Utah Law. I'd like to say I have personal experience, but I have only heard what the schools are like from these secondhand accounts. I would imagine many of the people posting on here know people who have attended, so my knowledge is probably at the same level as anyone else's, but the impression I have gotten from graduates of both BYU and Utah is that there is definite difference in the competitiveness between the students at BYU and Utah.

[erico]

You've offered reasons for the putative high level of competition, but you haven't offered reasons for cut-throat-ness. I continue to contend that there is an important distinction there.

While some of what you say makes sense, you make some questionable assertions and offer a lot of just-so psychologizing that would be pointless to argue about. One thing I will say is that the notion that many of the Biglaw and Midlaw jobs are going to women and minorities is no more true at BYU than at other places, so it's still reasonable to look at NLJ250 placement stats to get a sense of one's opportunities at BYU relative to peer schools.

What is your definition of cutthroat? Is it only students working AGAINST other students? While I think that makes for great reading in 1L, I don't think it actually occurs that much at BYU or anywhere. (I agree that the term itself would lean toward this definition, but I think it has a different meaning than that.) If we define cutthroat as making concessions that the average student would not make at any given school, then I think BYU would definitely rank in there for the cultural reasons stated before. I have a relative clerking for a federal judge who had a BYU clerk a few years before. Their primary complaint against him was that he worked too hard and didn't socialize within the office enough. Obviously n=1, but this supports the notion that a lot of BYU students sacrifice other aspects of their lives in order to "know the material" better.

I may well be alone in understanding cut-throat to imply hostility and aggression. I just can't get past the term itself and the image it brings to mind. Plus, I'm pretty sure the term is often used with that connotation. But if everyone here is just using the term to mean working really hard, then just ignore me.

I'm in accordance with you.