Top Law Schools

Much of the argument centers on the expected salary one can receive as a GMU grad, or a grad of any school for that matter. According to the stats on this website and many others, including GMU's website, one can expect to make over $100k/year, with the median at $150K for private practice. However, how accurate were these numbers to begin with, and how accurate are they now? $200k in debt for law school would be worth it is if a salary over $100k were possible, but speaking with GMU students and hearing from alumni gives the general sense that most grads go into gov work unless they are top 5%, with a starting salary between $56,000 to $80,000. With career prospects diminished by the recession, what we are left with is a lot of speculation about the future economy, the strength of the school and the overall demand for lawyers. At the orientation, we were told not to expect any jobs, I do not know how credible this statement is, however, it seems like a disclaimer. The impossibility of gaining in-state status, the COL in Arlington and the rising cost of tuition at GMU makes similarly ranked state schools much more enticing, and the opportunity costs of attending GMU is becoming greater. I have wanted to go to GMU for several years now, yet after more research, the barriers to entry appear to be against my favor. Our decision would be a simple one if honest statistics of starting salaries and placement were published that captured the affect of the recession on the graduates of the school, etc.

truthypants wrote:

FunkyJD wrote:

gemma232 wrote:Is this the consensus on GMU's financial aid (i.e., need to be top 25% to keep it)? How hard is it to be top 25% at a school like Mason (i.e., fairly easy, fairly difficult)?

Never assume that you will finish at anything but median at any law school. It's not easy to finish in the top 25% at any school.

I agree. I'm not on scholarship, but I wouldn't count on finishing top 25% (too much luck involved).

Thanks. Do most schools have less stringent scholarship requirements (or is top 25% to keep a scholly the standard practice amongst schools?)? Do you know anybody that lost a scholarship? What makes top quarter so hard to achieve?

gemma232 wrote:

truthypants wrote:

FunkyJD wrote:

gemma232 wrote:Is this the consensus on GMU's financial aid (i.e., need to be top 25% to keep it)? How hard is it to be top 25% at a school like Mason (i.e., fairly easy, fairly difficult)?

Never assume that you will finish at anything but median at any law school. It's not easy to finish in the top 25% at any school.

I agree. I'm not on scholarship, but I wouldn't count on finishing top 25% (too much luck involved).

Thanks. Do most schools have less stringent scholarship requirements (or is top 25% to keep a scholly the standard practice amongst schools?)? Do you know anybody that lost a scholarship? What makes top quarter so hard to achieve?

Schools in the top20, or even a bit lower ranked are known to give guaranteed scholarships that just require good standing (enrolled full time and not on academic probation). Even as you slide down the ranks toward GMU and past, they usually only require top 50%, or top 2/3. The worst I had heard before GMU is Top 1/3.

Vanderbilt, WUSTL, Illinois, UMN, etc. all just require good standing.

I understand that GMU doesn't have the funds to throw around like some schools, but they are also keeping good students away.

Hey guys! I am a good friend of Kandace (kiki) and also a 1L at Mason here to join the fun!

Here’s my perspective:

Econ sucked for me. I hated Econ and I hated the Professor. Kiki and I had the same person (Hazlett), and he made crude jokes all the time. He was really an all around jackass and the exam was impossible. If you were an econ major, you will probably do well. I had no Econ (ever) and made around the median, so it probably won't make your GPA abysmal if you put SOME effort into it.

Legal Writing - Another person here was very critical of it, so I will give my take on it. I really enjoyed it. It has its flaws, but for the most part it is a good program. The small sections are good because my Writing Fellow was ALWAYS available for questions or meetings, the more you make use of them, the better off you will be. I don't think there is a lot of arbitrariness. I was the highest in my section the first semester, and I have consistently been the 2nd highest this semester (which is usually the difference between an A and A-, so not a huge jump). This is pretty consistent with my friends, people that did well the first semester usually do well the second semester, with slight variations, but you won't go from the top to the bottom depending on your writing fellow. They have guidelines that they grade off of, and everyone follows the same ones, so there is only slight room for bias from the Writing Fellow, and it is all blind graded anyways (though they can usually tell who is who).

Jobs - For the most part, in this economy, jobs suck everywhere. However, almost everyone I know has a job for 1L summer... GOOD jobs. I had NO work experience, and I have been a stay at home mom for several years, and I have two jobs this summer. One is paid at $22 an hour at a very large government agency and the other is doing exactly the type of law I want to do long term at a small firm. I am not sure what the other Mason student was talking about, saying that the Legal Clinic is shitty. Actually, its a GREAT program. Mason has a lot of great contacts, and one of them happens to be a judge that places a lot of students in highly sought after positions in Judge's Chambers in Circuit Courts, Prosecutor's offices, Public Defenders, small firms, etc. It really helps people get connected and get their foot in the door. Many of the jobs that he places Mason students with are jobs sought by people at Georgetown, George Washington, UVA, William and Mary, etc. Anyways, all the 3L's I know have jobs for after law school and that is more than a lot of schools can say. Also, MAKE CONTACTS. I only got my jobs because of good networking, and I also got some pretty prestigious interviews from making contacts, so I cannot stress it enough. I even have a very good job prospect lined up for next summer because of an amazing contact I made. And this is with a resume with practically nothing but bartending on it, and my GPA isn't amazing either, its okay, but nothing fabulous. It is just pure networking and starting the job search early. I was getting business cards in August. And that is what you have to do in this job market. But if you are determined, you will find something.

Politics: I am very liberal, and really notice the conservative edge of George Mason. The Federalist Society is huge and the Mason Democrats is really tiny and unorganized. Most of the professors are conservative, some make it more obvious in class then others, but it has definitely come through in at least 2 classes I have had. And the underhanded jokes and jabs at Democrats are miserable at times. So, I guess its all what you make of it.

Housing: You are going to pay a premium in Arlington if you want your own place. Most friends pay between $1500 - $2000 for a 1-2 bedroom in Arlington. You can obviously make this cheaper if you want roommates. However, I live about 45 minutes away, and I have a 6 year old, three story, single family home, with 4 bedrooms, 2.5 baths, and a nice sized yard for $250,000 (about $1500 a month mortgage). If you have a family (I have two kids), you can definitely find some affordable housing in the suburbs. I do drive everyday, but the traffic isnt bad at all. No classes start before 10am, and traffic is almost dead by that point (people in DC go into work super early), and the HOV lanes open up to everyone at 9am, so I just hop right on the HOV and fly into Arlington. You can also use that time to listen to outlines on CD (the library has a bunch) and it actually makes some use of the time.

I hope this helps some of you, good luck in your decisions!

I agree. I'm not on scholarship, but I wouldn't count on finishing top 25% (too much luck involved).[/quote]

Thanks. Do most schools have less stringent scholarship requirements (or is top 25% to keep a scholly the standard practice amongst schools?)? Do you know anybody that lost a scholarship? What makes top quarter so hard to achieve?[/quote]
Schools in the top20, or even a bit lower ranked are known to give guaranteed scholarships that just require good standing (enrolled full time and not on academic probation). Even as you slide down the ranks toward GMU and past, they usually only require top 50%, or top 2/3. The worst I had heard before GMU is Top 1/3.

Vanderbilt, WUSTL, Illinois, UMN, etc. all just require good standing.

I understand that GMU doesn't have the funds to throw around like some schools, but they are also keeping good students away.[/quote]

You don't have to get near the top 20 for a safe scholarship offer. Arizona, SMU, and Colorado are offering scholarships requiring only good standing. Not sure who else is in that group. I was waiting to see if I got a scholarship from Mason before I withdrew. But after catching up on this thread, I couldn't justify Mason even with a scholarship. I'm disappointed. I was very excited about Mason, just not $180K excited.

fallguy wrote:I agree. I'm not on scholarship, but I wouldn't count on finishing top 25% (too much luck involved).

Thanks. Do most schools have less stringent scholarship requirements (or is top 25% to keep a scholly the standard practice amongst schools?)? Do you know anybody that lost a scholarship? What makes top quarter so hard to achieve?[/quote]
Schools in the top20, or even a bit lower ranked are known to give guaranteed scholarships that just require good standing (enrolled full time and not on academic probation). Even as you slide down the ranks toward GMU and past, they usually only require top 50%, or top 2/3. The worst I had heard before GMU is Top 1/3.

Vanderbilt, WUSTL, Illinois, UMN, etc. all just require good standing.

I understand that GMU doesn't have the funds to throw around like some schools, but they are also keeping good students away.[/quote]

You don't have to get near the top 20 for a safe scholarship offer. Arizona, SMU, and Colorado are offering scholarships requiring only good standing. Not sure who else is in that group. I was waiting to see if I got a scholarship from Mason before I withdrew. But after catching up on this thread, I couldn't justify Mason even with a scholarship. I'm disappointed. I was very excited about Mason, just not $180K excited.[/quote]

+1

For those of you still wondering what life in Arlington is like outside of law school classes, I submit the following source of information:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4T1RMuoQnKo

ViIIager wrote:For those of you still wondering what life in Arlington is like outside of law school classes, I submit the following source of information:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4T1RMuoQnKo

Can't go to youtube at work, but I am assuming this is the arlington rap song? Interesting thing is, shortly after this came out, there was an actual shooting in Clarendon. Obviously not related, but being so close to DC, it is amazing that Arlington is as safe as it is.

ram jam wrote:At the orientation, we were told not to expect any jobs...

Was that really said by a GMU representative or are you exaggerating?

one guy said he was told not to expect biglaw cause he was in the top 20%. he suggested it was more of a sure thing around top 10-15%

Doodsmack wrote:

ram jam wrote:At the orientation, we were told not to expect any jobs...

Was that really said by a GMU representative or are you exaggerating?

I was at the ASW, too. I think what was said was that one shouldn't expect to make over $100k right out of law school. In all the student panels, however, it seemed like the majority of students had some sort of internship or job during the school year and over the summers. These jobs weren't biglaw, but they were jobs nonetheless. I didn't get the sense that most of the kids cared about biglaw vs. everything else, but who knows. Most people seemed happy to be employed by government or small firms.

Is there a thread for those of us who have already decided to attend GMU this fall or are those conversations being mixed in with the Q and A from current students and the strung-out mutterings of unanswered applicants on this thread?

Also, does anyone know if there is another ASW coming up? I haven't gotten my acceptance package in the mail yet and if that info is on their website I must've missed it.

Also, is anyone else here planning on working full-time through school? Working part-time? Attending school part-time, not working and breaking all out hearts, I mean curves? Currently I like the idea of continuing work full-time and graduating close to debt-free. I'm married without kids so I don't have the time commitment of raising children, and I don't have the social desire/need to be spending a lot of my time away from home. Whether or not I've thought this decision through properly, I have thought it through enough times that I can't come up with any new perspectives on my own so I'm hoping feedback and dialogue on the forum here will illuminate helpful points of view.

Also, how many of you already live in the DC area? Where at and have you given any thought to moving closer slash further away slash nearer a metro stop? I live in alexandria currently, right on the border with arlington at 395 and king and I cant make up my mind whether it makes sense to move on the metro line or not. I know my location is actually pretty good for a commute to V. Square because I'm typing this from my current office in Courthouse, but there are going to be other factors like a new job, my wifes school, blah blah. So, once again, I'm hoping that listening to someone else's thoughts will be helpful.

Finally, I'd be happy to answer questions about moving to/living in nova for anyone. I don't have much to say about actually living in DC as I only did for a couple months, but I've been living and working in nova for a few years now. To begin with, I want to point out that the description of living in nova that the GMU profile linked from the TLS rankings page has is a complete lie. If you want to keep your undergrad liver in lean drinking form, of course there is all the choice and diversity one should expect from a city full of colleges and stressed out young professionals. But by no means is alcohol-fueled night life the only or defining aspect of the social scene available in the DC area.

If this doesn't stimulate this thread like a stick in a beehive...

druss3ll wrote:Is there a thread for those of us who have already decided to attend GMU this fall or are those conversations being mixed in with the Q and A from current students and the strung-out mutterings of unanswered applicants on this thread?

Also, does anyone know if there is another ASW coming up? I haven't gotten my acceptance package in the mail yet and if that info is on their website I must've missed it.

I think there is one April 12th.

eandy wrote:

druss3ll wrote:Is there a thread for those of us who have already decided to attend GMU this fall or are those conversations being mixed in with the Q and A from current students and the strung-out mutterings of unanswered applicants on this thread?

Also, does anyone know if there is another ASW coming up? I haven't gotten my acceptance package in the mail yet and if that info is on their website I must've missed it.

I think there is one April 12th.

FYI - for those accepting and thinking about Mason but April 12 is too late (e.g., considering other seat deposits), the Admissions office runs tours and allows you to sit in on some classes. They're on spring break this week, but will start back up next week.

eandy wrote:

druss3ll wrote:Is there a thread for those of us who have already decided to attend GMU this fall or are those conversations being mixed in with the Q and A from current students and the strung-out mutterings of unanswered applicants on this thread?

Also, does anyone know if there is another ASW coming up? I haven't gotten my acceptance package in the mail yet and if that info is on their website I must've missed it.

I think there is one April 12th.

It's april 10th.

rockthelaw wrote:

Doodsmack wrote:

ram jam wrote:At the orientation, we were told not to expect any jobs...

Was that really said by a GMU representative or are you exaggerating?

I was at the ASW, too. I think what was said was that one shouldn't expect to make over $100k right out of law school. In all the student panels, however, it seemed like the majority of students had some sort of internship or job during the school year and over the summers. These jobs weren't biglaw, but they were jobs nonetheless. I didn't get the sense that most of the kids cared about biglaw vs. everything else, but who knows. Most people seemed happy to be employed by government or small firms.

I was also at ASD for George Mason. In my information session a George Mason Rep did say that we should not expect to be making any money right out of law school. She also said tuition for next year can go up anywhere from 3-30% so I kind of disregarded anything that was said after hearing that. There were separate info sessions for people with different last names so I can not speak to what was said in each. On another note I was extremely impressed by the law school's career services but again, this was offset by another George Mason rep telling us that we will have to do most of the work ourselves and not to expect much help from them. It was a strange day overall I felt that the school was not being sold as much as we were being given a dose of reality.

newlaw77 wrote:I was also at ASD for George Mason. In my information session a George Mason Rep did say that we should not expect to be making any money right out of law school. She also said tuition for next year can go up anywhere from 3-30% so I kind of disregarded anything that was said after hearing that.

This does not inspire confidence.

Anyone still think it's a good idea to go to Mason at sticker, especially given this knowledge?

newlaw77 wrote:On another note I was extremely impressed by the law school's career services but again, this was offset by another George Mason rep telling us that we will have to do most of the work ourselves. It was a strange day overall I felt that the school was not being sold as much as we were being given a dose of reality.

While I don't expect expect any school's career services office to come hand me a job, did you get a sense that the career services office is proactive in doing everything that they can to help students ITE?

While I don't expect expect any school's career services office to come hand me a job, did you get a sense that the career services office is proactive in doing everything that they can to help students ITE?[/quote]


I absolutely felt that way about the career services staff. They seemed to be on their game. They were open to us contacting them about any negative feedback we get from students. They said something about leaving all the information at our feet. Apparently they are willing to put in a tremendous amount of effort into finding a job for everyone it just depends how much effort you are willing to put in yourself. They left off by telling us that their is no hiding from them. So it seems like they will help you no matter what. It kind of makes sense if you think about how much employment statistics matter to prospective students.

FunkyJD wrote:

newlaw77 wrote:I was also at ASD for George Mason. In my information session a George Mason Rep did say that we should not expect to be making any money right out of law school. She also said tuition for next year can go up anywhere from 3-30% so I kind of disregarded anything that was said after hearing that.

This does not inspire confidence.

Anyone still think it's a good idea to go to Mason at sticker, especially given this knowledge?

newlaw77 wrote:On another note I was extremely impressed by the law school's career services but again, this was offset by another George Mason rep telling us that we will have to do most of the work ourselves. It was a strange day overall I felt that the school was not being sold as much as we were being given a dose of reality.

While I don't expect expect any school's career services office to come hand me a job, did you get a sense that the career services office is proactive in doing everything that they can to help students ITE?

As for career services, it is my experience that you will be the one that has to take the initiative in applying/trying to get a job. So, for example, if you go in thinking "I don't have time to apply to jobs, I only have time to study/get good grades", you are probably going to be out of luck in the job department. That is, don't expect to get a call from career services saying that they have gone out and placed you in an awesome gig while you sat back and studied (though, that would be sweet if it were the case). Count on having to do the job search yourself. But, they will help you if you have questions and are good about respoding to emails/other general help. Last note--I didn't get the sense that if you strike out and don't have anything lined up that the career services would take the initiative and be like "we have to do everything in our power to get this guy a job". If you don't do anything to help yourself, expect career services to let you remain unemployed (they're a good resource, but I wouldn't say that they hand out jobs to students--i.e., calling in favors to get a student a gig).

truthypants wrote:

FunkyJD wrote:While I don't expect expect any school's career services office to come hand me a job, did you get a sense that the career services office is proactive in doing everything that they can to help students ITE?

As for career services, it is my experience that you will be the one that has to take the initiative in applying/trying to get a job. So, for example, if you go in thinking "I don't have time to apply to jobs, I only have time to study/get good grades", you are probably going to be out of luck in the job department. That is, don't expect to get a call from career services saying that they have gone out and placed you in an awesome gig while you sat back and studied (though, that would be sweet if it were the case). Count on having to do the job search yourself.

Completely understand and agree.

truthypants wrote:But, they will help you if you have questions and are good about respoding to emails/other general help. Last note--I didn't get the sense that if you strike out and don't have anything lined up that the career services would take the initiative and be like "we have to do everything in our power to get this guy a job". If you don't do anything to help yourself, expect career services to let you remain unemployed (they're a good resource, but I wouldn't say that they hand out jobs to students--i.e., calling in favors to get a student a gig).

And here's where I'm still learning about how career service offices work. I have this idea that career services office are there to (a) help you with those general questions about job searches and the legal market, help you fix up your resume, give interview tips, etc ... but also to (b) market the school to possible employers and try to set up the best OCI possible.

That's a 0L's description of what I think career services are supposed to do. And if that's the right idea, hopefully Mason does well at that. But if I'm mistaken in this impression, then I guess I need to learn that and adjust my expectations. Comments, critique?

FunkyJD wrote:

truthypants wrote:

FunkyJD wrote:While I don't expect expect any school's career services office to come hand me a job, did you get a sense that the career services office is proactive in doing everything that they can to help students ITE?

As for career services, it is my experience that you will be the one that has to take the initiative in applying/trying to get a job. So, for example, if you go in thinking "I don't have time to apply to jobs, I only have time to study/get good grades", you are probably going to be out of luck in the job department. That is, don't expect to get a call from career services saying that they have gone out and placed you in an awesome gig while you sat back and studied (though, that would be sweet if it were the case). Count on having to do the job search yourself.

Completely understand and agree.

truthypants wrote:But, they will help you if you have questions and are good about respoding to emails/other general help. Last note--I didn't get the sense that if you strike out and don't have anything lined up that the career services would take the initiative and be like "we have to do everything in our power to get this guy a job". If you don't do anything to help yourself, expect career services to let you remain unemployed (they're a good resource, but I wouldn't say that they hand out jobs to students--i.e., calling in favors to get a student a gig).

And here's where I'm still learning about how career service offices work. I have this idea that career services office are there to (a) help you with those general questions about job searches and the legal market, help you fix up your resume, give interview tips, etc ... but also to (b) market the school to possible employers and try to set up the best OCI possible.

That's a 0L's description of what I think career services are supposed to do. And if that's the right idea, hopefully Mason does well at that. But if I'm mistaken in this impression, then I guess I need to learn that and adjust my expectations. Comments, critique?

As for part (a), I say Mason's career services accomplishes this. As for part (b), I really couldn't say--I have no idea what career services does behind closed doors to market the school. I guess just go by the employers that come to Mason's oci. If you aren't happy with the number/types of employers coming, I guess you could let career services know (e.g., "why does GW or G'town have more recruiters come to their campuses than we do? or something like that--interesting to see what they say they are doing about it--i really couldn't tell you

FunkyJD wrote:


This does not inspire confidence.

Anyone still think it's a good idea to go to Mason at sticker, especially given this knowledge?

Well, I'm much more unhappy now that I've read about the 3-30% tuition increase possibility, but they're still the cheapest part-time program in the DC area. I want to keep my job so I can cover my family's needs, so its still GMU for me (though with a little less enthusiasm).

Overall I feel lukewarm about Mason after the ASW. I liked how the career services folks were upfront about employment prospects, but at the same time they flashed the median starting salary of $150k for private practice for the class of 2008 - a serious contradiction. I also liked the students' honesty, and the fact that many of the students involved in the forums weren't gunning for biglaw. The "What to Expect After Graduation" forum, however, left me unsettled. You had 5 Mason grads - one biglaw guy, three federal government attorneys, and one federal government attorney/professor. Clearly the school was trying to put its best employment foot forward: an OCI champion, some attorneys in very coveted federal positions, and a recent grad who'd already worked in private practice, government, and academia, and found success in all areas! Besides the OCI champ, however, the rest of the grads talked about how they networked their way into their current positions. Made it very clear that employers don't necessarily come to Mason. Also, one of the government attorneys went on a biglaw rant that didn't have any place in the forum.

Anyway, definitely not a hard sell from the school, which I appreciated. But also, a few contradictions (also pointed out by newlaw) that didn't really leave me excited.

ViIIager wrote:

FunkyJD wrote:


This does not inspire confidence.

Anyone still think it's a good idea to go to Mason at sticker, especially given this knowledge?

Well, I'm much more unhappy now that I've read about the 3-30% tuition increase possibility, but they're still the cheapest part-time program in the DC area. I want to keep my job so I can cover my family's needs, so its still GMU for me (though with a little less enthusiasm).

I was at the Financial Aid Session during ASD orientation. I believe Dr. Zupan was in charge of it. I asked the following when she open herself up for questions:

me: given the current state of Virginia budget and the impending across the board cuts, could you give us a picture of what tuition hike would be like for the next four years?
Dr. Zupan: Its anywhere between 5% to 7%
me: Its not gonna be like the 30% hikes one would see in California, would it?
Dr. Zupan: anything is possible.

I think this is where u got the idea that tuition hike could be 30%. Bear in mind though, the state of Virginia is in much better financial shape than California; At least no IOUs yet.

Just got accepted via phone call. This is gonna be a toughie for me. I like the location (as I want to work for the federal gov after graduation), I like the economics-based approach, and I am fine with the conservative atmosphere. However, as an out-of-stater who's gonna be making 65k/year tops after grad, I do not like the 35k/year tuition or the fact that they don't give out many scholarships.

Anybody who goes there care to comment on how easy it is to establish VA residency? If I could get that after year 1, that would be something at least.

PS - status checker never did anything and now the status box is gone completely.