George Mason 2010

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azb
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Re: George Mason 2010

Postby azb » Tue Mar 02, 2010 11:15 pm

klussy wrote:
MarkRenton wrote:I've never quite figured this out... The law school in Arlington... How much is this on a campus setting? Does the surroundings feel like a university area? Isn't there a main campus somewhere else?


It doesn't have a campus "feel" at all. Arlington has a rather corporate vibe. GMU law is just a standalone building. The UG campus is in Fairfax, about 15 miles away.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4T1RMuoQnKo


The Arlington campus is not like the main campus (Fairfax) at all. It’s just a building in city of Arlington; and comparing to the UG campus, it does not feel like a university area. But the interior design of the building (ex. Library, print service) is very similar to some of the buildings in the Fairfax campus.

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truthypants
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Re: George Mason 2010

Postby truthypants » Wed Mar 03, 2010 12:56 am

sunnygirl wrote:
*kiki* wrote:
SAE wrote:
*kiki* wrote:They basically told us that if you want to get in state tuition you have two options:
1. Marry a Virginia resident
2. Take a year off from school, work in the area, buy property (basically become a resident who isn't in school) and then come back to school

Now, this BLOWS!

How am I not a bona-fide state resident after having lived and gone to school there for one year, registered a car, and (possibly) paid taxes??


I will keep you posted on how my application process goes, but my husband and I have the following criteria which doesn't seem to be enough:
- job offer and acceptance prior to law school application or acceptance
- paid state taxes
- registered and titled our car in VA
- registered to vote
- got VA drivers licenses

As far as I have heard, this is a Virginia standard and applies to all state schools.



But how about buying an apartment in Virginia while in school? Could it make me a resident??? Though I don't think I could afford one in Arlington or nearby area.......


I am not going to lie--I don't know anyone at school that has been successful at obtaining VA residency. I would just go in under the assumption that you are not going to get it.

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*kiki*
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Re: George Mason 2010

Postby *kiki* » Wed Mar 03, 2010 12:58 am

ruleser wrote:Thanks for taking questions - how much a part of things is the law and econ focus?


The law and econ focus does come out in most of the first year classes, but only in a very basic form. It is really not too much to handle. And I am one who hates economics and hated the law and economics class that we had to take.

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truthypants
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Re: George Mason 2010

Postby truthypants » Wed Mar 03, 2010 1:01 am

ruleser wrote:Thanks for taking questions - how much a part of things is the law and econ focus?


They incorporate law and econ into just about all of the classes. By econ, I mean cost/benefit analysis to law (i.e., public policies for the laws). Don't think they make the law and econ to be something like, "because of x law, the stock market crashed" or something like that. Think of a law and econ blend as more of a "the social costs of x are this, so we want to deter it with y law". Google the Hand formula, and you will get a better idea of the law and econ they do at Mason. (example of law/econ approach to Torts--major car manufacturer wants to cut costs, so makes a less safe car. as a result, people die due to the unsafe car. It costs the car company less to pay the lawsuit than it would for it to make a safer car. How should the law handle this?)

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ruleser
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Re: George Mason 2010

Postby ruleser » Wed Mar 03, 2010 1:16 am

That sounds awesome, the car manufacturer example. I was more that the talk of law and econ was a bit hyped and it would just be like attending any law school - law and econ is why I would choose mason so I'm glad to hear it seems to be real part of things

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FunkyJD
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Re: George Mason 2010

Postby FunkyJD » Wed Mar 03, 2010 1:25 am

As someone with a policy school background, I actually find the idea of a law and economics class to be interesting, the more I consider it. I'd be curious to know which textbooks you guys used, or articles you read, in your law and econ class.

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truthypants
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Re: George Mason 2010

Postby truthypants » Wed Mar 03, 2010 1:57 am

FunkyJD wrote:As someone with a policy school background, I actually find the idea of a law and economics class to be interesting, the more I consider it. I'd be curious to know which textbooks you guys used, or articles you read, in your law and econ class.


Well, for my class, I had Professor Tyler Cowen--he has his own book (I forgot the name of it already--something invisible hand?). Google him. Basically, it is an undergraduate microecnomics class. You talk supply demand curves, incentives, comparative advantage, incentives, etc. He didn't really talk about law at all (he's an economist). So, basically, we just read his book and his blog (or if you were an econ major, you didn't read and walked into the final and typed your thesis from undergrad/grad school and got an A-hey, it worked for me).

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truthypants
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Re: George Mason 2010

Postby truthypants » Wed Mar 03, 2010 2:02 am

ruleser wrote:That sounds awesome, the car manufacturer example. I was more that the talk of law and econ was a bit hyped and it would just be like attending any law school - law and econ is why I would choose mason so I'm glad to hear it seems to be real part of things


Oh, they definitely apply law and econ (at least in the classes I have taken). Just get ready for the "deep pockets" theory of tort liability--i.e., you sue the person(s) that has the most money (or find somebody with a lot of money and sue them). Now that is law and economics in action! (thank you Mason law)

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*kiki*
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Re: George Mason 2010

Postby *kiki* » Wed Mar 03, 2010 8:27 am

truthypants wrote:
FunkyJD wrote:As someone with a policy school background, I actually find the idea of a law and economics class to be interesting, the more I consider it. I'd be curious to know which textbooks you guys used, or articles you read, in your law and econ class.


Well, for my class, I had Professor Tyler Cowen--he has his own book (I forgot the name of it already--something invisible hand?). Google him. Basically, it is an undergraduate microecnomics class. You talk supply demand curves, incentives, comparative advantage, incentives, etc. He didn't really talk about law at all (he's an economist). So, basically, we just read his book and his blog (or if you were an econ major, you didn't read and walked into the final and typed your thesis from undergrad/grad school and got an A-hey, it worked for me).


In our class we used a textbook from Mankiw. The only articles we had to read were ones that our Professor (Hazlett) had published, as well as Coase's paper on Social Costs. If you are interested in the law and economics program, truthypants is correct in advising you to read Coase and familiarize yourself with the "Coase theorem."

ram jam
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Re: George Mason 2010

Postby ram jam » Wed Mar 03, 2010 10:16 am

*kiki* wrote:
truthypants wrote:
FunkyJD wrote:As someone with a policy school background, I actually find the idea of a law and economics class to be interesting, the more I consider it. I'd be curious to know which textbooks you guys used, or articles you read, in your law and econ class.


Well, for my class, I had Professor Tyler Cowen--he has his own book (I forgot the name of it already--something invisible hand?). Google him. Basically, it is an undergraduate microecnomics class. You talk supply demand curves, incentives, comparative advantage, incentives, etc. He didn't really talk about law at all (he's an economist). So, basically, we just read his book and his blog (or if you were an econ major, you didn't read and walked into the final and typed your thesis from undergrad/grad school and got an A-hey, it worked for me).


In our class we used a textbook from Mankiw. The only articles we had to read were ones that our Professor (Hazlett) had published, as well as Coase's paper on Social Costs. If you are interested in the law and economics program, truthypants is correct in advising you to read Coase and familiarize yourself with the "Coase theorem."


"In our class we used a textbook from Mankiw", this alone makes GMU more tempting.

Do you feel that the extensive Legal Writing program (4 classes) is overkill or an asset?

Also, the talks at the orientation put forward the expectation that Mason grads will most likely find government work, are there still enough students finding firm jobs? If so, where? Do students seeking firm jobs find work in Nova/DC or are most of the firm jobs scattered about Virginia?

Thanks!

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pjo
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Re: George Mason 2010

Postby pjo » Wed Mar 03, 2010 11:51 am

ram jam wrote:Also, the talks at the orientation put forward the expectation that Mason grads will most likely find government work, are there still enough students finding firm jobs? If so, where? Do students seeking firm jobs find work in Nova/DC or are most of the firm jobs scattered about Virginia?

Thanks!


+1. I really get the feel that most Mason grads find work in government. How about those working in firms? How difficult is it to get into Big/Mid law firm graduating from Mason? And what market does Mason feed into primarily (NoVA or DC)?

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Sauer Grapes
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Re: George Mason 2010

Postby Sauer Grapes » Wed Mar 03, 2010 11:54 am

pjo wrote:
ram jam wrote:Also, the talks at the orientation put forward the expectation that Mason grads will most likely find government work, are there still enough students finding firm jobs? If so, where? Do students seeking firm jobs find work in Nova/DC or are most of the firm jobs scattered about Virginia?

Thanks!


+1. I really get the feel that most Mason grads find work in government. How about those working in firms? How difficult is it to get into Big/Mid law firm graduating from Mason? And what market does Mason feed into primarily (NoVA or DC)?

That's basically the same market. Before this economy, Big Law hired Mason grads in the DC area.

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FunkyJD
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Re: George Mason 2010

Postby FunkyJD » Wed Mar 03, 2010 11:57 am

pjo wrote:
ram jam wrote:Also, the talks at the orientation put forward the expectation that Mason grads will most likely find government work, are there still enough students finding firm jobs? If so, where? Do students seeking firm jobs find work in Nova/DC or are most of the firm jobs scattered about Virginia?

Thanks!


+1. I really get the feel that most Mason grads find work in government. How about those working in firms? How difficult is it to get into Big/Mid law firm graduating from Mason? And what market does Mason feed into primarily (NoVA or DC)?

+1 ... to add, how successful are Mason grads at getting jobs with large law firms with offices in McLean or elsewhere in NoVa?

Everyone wants to work in DC, but I personally wouldn't mind having an office in Fairfax County.

azb
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Re: George Mason 2010

Postby azb » Wed Mar 03, 2010 12:46 pm

FunkyJD wrote:
pjo wrote:
ram jam wrote:Also, the talks at the orientation put forward the expectation that Mason grads will most likely find government work, are there still enough students finding firm jobs? If so, where? Do students seeking firm jobs find work in Nova/DC or are most of the firm jobs scattered about Virginia?

Thanks!


+1. I really get the feel that most Mason grads find work in government. How about those working in firms? How difficult is it to get into Big/Mid law firm graduating from Mason? And what market does Mason feed into primarily (NoVA or DC)?

+1 ... to add, how successful are Mason grads at getting jobs with large law firms with offices in McLean or elsewhere in NoVa?

Everyone wants to work in DC, but I personally wouldn't mind having an office in Fairfax County.

+1

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truthypants
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Re: George Mason 2010

Postby truthypants » Wed Mar 03, 2010 1:53 pm

ram jam wrote:
*kiki* wrote:
truthypants wrote:
FunkyJD wrote:As someone with a policy school background, I actually find the idea of a law and economics class to be interesting, the more I consider it. I'd be curious to know which textbooks you guys used, or articles you read, in your law and econ class.


Well, for my class, I had Professor Tyler Cowen--he has his own book (I forgot the name of it already--something invisible hand?). Google him. Basically, it is an undergraduate microecnomics class. You talk supply demand curves, incentives, comparative advantage, incentives, etc. He didn't really talk about law at all (he's an economist). So, basically, we just read his book and his blog (or if you were an econ major, you didn't read and walked into the final and typed your thesis from undergrad/grad school and got an A-hey, it worked for me).


In our class we used a textbook from Mankiw. The only articles we had to read were ones that our Professor (Hazlett) had published, as well as Coase's paper on Social Costs. If you are interested in the law and economics program, truthypants is correct in advising you to read Coase and familiarize yourself with the "Coase theorem."


"In our class we used a textbook from Mankiw", this alone makes GMU more tempting.

Do you feel that the extensive Legal Writing program (4 classes) is overkill or an asset?

Also, the talks at the orientation put forward the expectation that Mason grads will most likely find government work, are there still enough students finding firm jobs? If so, where? Do students seeking firm jobs find work in Nova/DC or are most of the firm jobs scattered about Virginia?

Thanks!


Brief Answers:

Legal Writing:

Agh--where do I begin... The legal writing, in my opinion, is the worst thing about Mason. I say that based on its arbitrary grading system and not about the substance of what you learn in it. It was my lowest grade first semester. Here is just a *sample* of the problems you can look forward to. First, you are split into small sections of about 10 students each and are graded solely based on how well you do compared to those 10 students (and not the class as a whole). So, if you get stuck in a group that happens to have the future law review editor, you are basically screwed (and yes, a bad legal writing grade kills your gpa and your job prospects). Also, you might have a situation in which a person in one writing section blows off a project and basically types their name and a few sentences, but gets the same grade as a student in another section that spent 80 hours working on a project but happened to be the low grade based on their section. Not only that, but students grade the writing-not actual professors. I don't want to out my friend, but this is a big problem. More specifically, my friend's writing fellow gave him a bad grade because she said he reminded her of her ex boyfriend (the writing fellows are notoriously arbitrary in how they grade--it is all luck, no joke). My personal horror story-I submitted a project in .docx format and would have had a grade above median, but the writing fellow docked me (said it should have been in .doc format) and I subsequently got below median on the project. And no, they don't tell you ahead of time how to submit the project or what format to use--you guess and turn it in and hope they have mercy on you. I am in the part-time program as I work during the day, but another problem I have found is that many part-time students don't work (they just flat out gun for grades). This is unfair because that means they have more time to devote to writing projects, which translates into higher grades. I expressed my concern to the professor and said that I thought it would be more fair to just have all of the writing assignements pass/fail, and then at the end of the course have a timed writing assignment (similar to an exam) to determine the grade. I felt that that would be the most fair--but, they simply don't listen when you complain. Sorry to whine, but I really feel that the writing program (at least how it is graded) is not fair and needs to be improved upon. Fair warning before you attend Mason.

Jobs:

If you want biglaw, you flat out need to be at the top of the class (i.e. top 5%). I am top 20% and was told not to expect biglaw from career services. I don't really mind, my goal all along was federal govt., but just realize how well you need to do to accomplish your goals. That said, I have had success in gaining interviews with federal agencies (no offers as of yet, but I just interviewed recently). I'd say probably top 50% for govt. work, top 30% for federal govt. work. Most of the people I know and talk to at Mason have similar goals and want federal govt. jobs, so you are going to have your work cut out for you due to the competition. Again, if you're top 30% or so, you should get interviews with the feds. Below median at Mason, I think you're screwed (you basically have to settle for their "legal clinic" which is basically interning with small law or clerking for some small time judge in fairfax--really sucks.). Bottom line, aim for at least top 30% to get a decent job at Mason (i.e. federal govt. or biglaw). Top 50% is pushing it, below that, expect shitlaw. Fair warning.

*edit*--yes, most of the people at Mason do get govt. jobs, but I think part of it is because they opt for those jobs. Fact of the matter is, firm jobs are risky (i.e., they can fire you at any moment). Govt. jobs you don't have to worry--you're in, you're there for life basically. I think that a lot of people want the job security in this economy and that is why you are seeing so many self-select into the feds (at least at Mason they are)
Last edited by truthypants on Wed Mar 03, 2010 2:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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MarkRenton
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Re: George Mason 2010

Postby MarkRenton » Wed Mar 03, 2010 2:17 pm

I want to thank all of the GMU students chiming in. All of these comments are incredibly helpful

qualster
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Re: George Mason 2010

Postby qualster » Wed Mar 03, 2010 4:50 pm

"Decision Status" went blank. Says "decision status date: 2/18/2010." Does that mean denied?

luckyduck
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Re: George Mason 2010

Postby luckyduck » Thu Mar 04, 2010 11:29 am

MarkRenton wrote:I want to thank all of the GMU students chiming in. All of these comments are incredibly helpful

+1

Altho it just makes me wish I could get off that waitlist even more...

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rockthelaw
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Re: George Mason 2010

Postby rockthelaw » Thu Mar 04, 2010 11:44 am

truthypants wrote:
Jobs:

If you want biglaw, you flat out need to be at the top of the class (i.e. top 5%). I am top 20% and was told not to expect biglaw from career services.


I've read elsewhere on this site that top 15% from Mason can get biglaw. Also, at the recent ASW, someone mentioned that top 10%-15% can get biglaw interviews and offers. Does your number (top 5%) indicate a more accurate appraisal of Mason's biglaw opportunities, or does top 15% indicate that you have at least a fighting chance to get an interview with biglaw? Just trying to hammer down some real numbers here.

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MarkRenton
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Re: George Mason 2010

Postby MarkRenton » Thu Mar 04, 2010 12:52 pm

rockthelaw wrote:
truthypants wrote:
Jobs:

If you want biglaw, you flat out need to be at the top of the class (i.e. top 5%). I am top 20% and was told not to expect biglaw from career services.


I've read elsewhere on this site that top 15% from Mason can get biglaw. Also, at the recent ASW, someone mentioned that top 10%-15% can get biglaw interviews and offers. Does your number (top 5%) indicate a more accurate appraisal of Mason's biglaw opportunities, or does top 15% indicate that you have at least a fighting chance to get an interview with biglaw? Just trying to hammer down some real numbers here.


The discrepancy is probably old data conflicting with more modern and reduced expectations. ITE, of course.

texasforever
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Re: George Mason 2010

Postby texasforever » Thu Mar 04, 2010 1:17 pm

rockthelaw wrote:
truthypants wrote:
Jobs:

If you want biglaw, you flat out need to be at the top of the class (i.e. top 5%). I am top 20% and was told not to expect biglaw from career services.


I've read elsewhere on this site that top 15% from Mason can get biglaw. Also, at the recent ASW, someone mentioned that top 10%-15% can get biglaw interviews and offers. Does your number (top 5%) indicate a more accurate appraisal of Mason's biglaw opportunities, or does top 15% indicate that you have at least a fighting chance to get an interview with biglaw? Just trying to hammer down some real numbers here.


People on this site easily forget that it's not the grades you make, but the hands you shake. It is a big advantage to have worked in a law office during undergrad for three summers. Though I personally worked for a small firm we had alot of correspondance with big firms in the D.C. area and getting to meet numerous partners, associates, and recruiters who will at least know your face or name because you did actual work for them will be huge when it comes time to start sending out resumes in three years. I would consider this almost a bigger advantage than being in the top 5% of my class and having to sacrafice my soul to get there.

For instance, I have a contact in California that works at one of the top three sports agencies in the country. It doesn't matter if I go to George Mason, I can fly 4000 miles and compete with a USC and UCLA grad on the basis of who I know. Granted, top 15 - 25% is the place to aim for, but people who say that top 5% or bust are flat out wrong, especially if you go to strong T1 regional school and have ties to employers in the area.

My two cents.

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truthypants
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Re: George Mason 2010

Postby truthypants » Thu Mar 04, 2010 1:23 pm

rockthelaw wrote:
truthypants wrote:
Jobs:

If you want biglaw, you flat out need to be at the top of the class (i.e. top 5%). I am top 20% and was told not to expect biglaw from career services.


I've read elsewhere on this site that top 15% from Mason can get biglaw. Also, at the recent ASW, someone mentioned that top 10%-15% can get biglaw interviews and offers. Does your number (top 5%) indicate a more accurate appraisal of Mason's biglaw opportunities, or does top 15% indicate that you have at least a fighting chance to get an interview with biglaw? Just trying to hammer down some real numbers here.


Well, they said top 5% to *expect* to get biglaw. I mean, i've heard stories of people in the bottom 10% getting biglaw, but who knows what connections they had or what job they had prior to law school. I haven't tried for biglaw, but there are not a ton of recruiters that come to campus--which makes it that much harder to get (it's mostly govt. agencies that come recruiting here, not biglaw). One of my friends here is top 5%, but he is transferring to Georgetown. A lot of the people that get super high ranks transfer out, so that might be another option if the employer you want doesn't recruit at Mason.
*edit*-Also, these numbers are assuming no technical background. Mason is big into IP law, so many people here have technical backgrounds, and a lot of patent attorneys can get biglaw with lower numbers

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SAE
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Re: George Mason 2010

Postby SAE » Thu Mar 04, 2010 1:55 pm

Any word on the $?

lawlife2010
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Re: George Mason 2010

Postby lawlife2010 » Thu Mar 04, 2010 2:49 pm

Has anyone been accepted to George Mason in the last 2 weeks? Was it via phone call?

kickincane21
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Re: George Mason 2010

Postby kickincane21 » Thu Mar 04, 2010 4:18 pm

A lot of the schools have April 1st seat deposit deadlines...waiting on financial aid offer from GMU before deciding...but when do they release that info? Or have they already?




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